Now even though the article initially started off with a segment about how Leenock overthrew NesTea (hence the picture) and how him and NesTea are still really close to each other, TIG also showed us a ranking regarding the top twenty GSL players.
He's not the number one Zerg in the gsl, he's the one with most wins only because he's been around longer and isn't that bad. Number one would imply he has the most skills for a Zerg in the gsl and last time I checked,life and symbol are still in gsl. I swear, people are acting like leenock is the sc2 jaedong when jaedong was in his bw prime. People are acting like leenock is like savior when savior made his bw break through and dominated everyone. He's a not half bad player with a few small tournament wins and a second place at a gsl that happened a year ago.
Mvp's winrate is much, much more impressive. It's only a % or so off, but he has played almost double the amount of games. His consistency really shines through.
I'm surprised MKP has that many considering he rarely makes it to the ro8 but I guess he got a ton of wins that one GSTL season and got a bunch the season he played in Code A. Grats to Leenock on earning the most wins as a zerg
On September 28 2012 10:29 Doubting wrote: Does this include Code A and GSTL? I don't think Squirtle has played that many Code S games
It includes Code A, not sure about GSTL. You can tell because players like Ryung and Byun have only been in about 4 Code S seasons each and are still on this list.
Leenock himself was in Code A for 6 months.
But that list really makes MVP, MKP, MC's win-rates look quite impressive; since they *still* top it despite rarely dropping out of Code S and being there since the open seasons.
On September 28 2012 10:53 Dodgin wrote: Have to admit I laughed at Polt being sub 50% winrate as a GSL champion.
Polt is also a post-secondary student though.. So he can't really invest as much time as others. Being a GSL champ and a student is pretty fucking good I'd say.
Also.. I think this thread can put an end to the whole.. "Omg the international Protoss players just suck.. Toss is imbalanced at a korean level" bullshit lots of T / Z players like to spew out.
His shitty GSTL record (2-9) puts him under .500. Also why Leenock is above Nestea. Nestea is shit/never plays in GSTL, and Leenock has been the ace of fOu/FXO.
On September 28 2012 10:53 Dodgin wrote: Have to admit I laughed at Polt being sub 50% winrate as a GSL champion.
Polt is also a post-secondary student though.. So he can't really invest as much time as others. Being a GSL champ and a student is pretty fucking good I'd say.
Also.. I think this thread can put an end to the whole.. "Omg Protoss is imbalanced at a korean level" bullshit people spew out.
This is an amalgamation of data beginning from ancient times known as "open seasons" to the most recent games. It says exactly zero about current balance.
On September 28 2012 10:53 Dodgin wrote: Have to admit I laughed at Polt being sub 50% winrate as a GSL champion.
Polt is also a post-secondary student though.. So he can't really invest as much time as others. Being a GSL champ and a student is pretty fucking good I'd say.
Also.. I think this thread can put an end to the whole.. "Omg the international Protoss players just suck.. Toss is imbalanced at a korean level" bullshit lots of T / Z players like to spew out.
How did this rumor start? Polt has been a full time player since the Super Tournament.
On September 28 2012 10:53 Dodgin wrote: Have to admit I laughed at Polt being sub 50% winrate as a GSL champion.
Polt is also a post-secondary student though.. So he can't really invest as much time as others. Being a GSL champ and a student is pretty fucking good I'd say.
Also.. I think this thread can put an end to the whole.. "Omg the international Protoss players just suck.. Toss is imbalanced at a korean level" bullshit lots of T / Z players like to spew out.
How did this rumor start? Polt has been a full time player since the Super Tournament.
Yeah Polt hasn't been a student for like 2 years or something like that. Someone even asked him in the post gsl interview with artosis if he ever plans on going back to school and he said he'd like to be a pro gamer as long as he can for now.
On September 28 2012 11:56 Fionn wrote: I'm bored, so I'm gonna calculate the win ratios for all the Top 20 without GSTL results. This is purely GSL singles results.
On September 28 2012 11:56 Fionn wrote: I'm bored, so I'm gonna calculate the win ratios for all the Top 20 without GSTL results. This is purely GSL singles results.
I love how sub-50% was just called Polt and July. Made me giggle. Also made me sad, though, once I thought about it. July was once a king, and it's a shame to see a king fall.
Funny how players with 60%+ win rates are mostly "veterans" with a huge number of played games... but with DRG at the top (and even he's pretty experienced), and TaeJa with 20 or more fewer games played than everyone else :D. Interesting stats!
On September 28 2012 10:34 brokenLoL wrote: He's not the number one Zerg in the gsl, he's the one with most wins only because he's been around longer and isn't that bad. Number one would imply he has the most skills for a Zerg in the gsl and last time I checked,life and symbol are still in gsl. I swear, people are acting like leenock is the sc2 jaedong when jaedong was in his bw prime. People are acting like leenock is like savior when savior made his bw break through and dominated everyone. He's a not half bad player with a few small tournament wins and a second place at a gsl that happened a year ago.
Yeah, to be honest I don't understand why this is listed by total wins. It should be listed by percentage, as that's the actual indicator of prestige. DRG being at the very top in this scenario. Percentage identifies the spread of wins and loses. For instance, according to this, someone in the GSL with 200 wins and 250 loses would be at the top. That's a tad ridiculous, but it would be the case if the stat existed.
On September 28 2012 13:24 Taidanii wrote: Yeah, to be honest I don't understand why this is listed by total wins. It should be listed by percentage, as that's the actual indicator of prestige. DRG being at the very top in this scenario. Percentage identifies the spread of wins and loses. For instance, according to this, someone in the GSL with 200 wins and 250 loses would be at the top. That's a tad ridiculous, but it would be the case if the stat existed.
They aren't measuring skill, it's just a bit of extra relevant info in an article about Leenock having the most Zerg GSL wins, which is a fun statistic to know.
On September 28 2012 13:24 Taidanii wrote: Yeah, to be honest I don't understand why this is listed by total wins. It should be listed by percentage, as that's the actual indicator of prestige. DRG being at the very top in this scenario. Percentage identifies the spread of wins and loses. For instance, according to this, someone in the GSL with 200 wins and 250 loses would be at the top. That's a tad ridiculous, but it would be the case if the stat existed.
Meh. This is why I did the percentage thing on my own
On September 28 2012 13:24 Taidanii wrote: Yeah, to be honest I don't understand why this is listed by total wins. It should be listed by percentage, as that's the actual indicator of prestige. DRG being at the very top in this scenario. Percentage identifies the spread of wins and loses. For instance, according to this, someone in the GSL with 200 wins and 250 loses would be at the top. That's a tad ridiculous, but it would be the case if the stat existed.
That's impossible. For every player that has a negative stat there has to be a player with a corresponding positive stat. Otherwise who is this player losing to?
Percentage on the otherhand, will lead to weird situations for players who only show up in GSL for like a season and score 9 wins 1 loss and have a permanent 90% win rate. Like others have pointed out, percentages are misleading when the sample size is different.
On September 28 2012 13:24 Taidanii wrote: Yeah, to be honest I don't understand why this is listed by total wins. It should be listed by percentage, as that's the actual indicator of prestige. DRG being at the very top in this scenario. Percentage identifies the spread of wins and loses. For instance, according to this, someone in the GSL with 200 wins and 250 loses would be at the top. That's a tad ridiculous, but it would be the case if the stat existed.
Percentage only makes since if the players have played a similar number of games. Like a regular season in pro sports. Since winning a match in GSL means you move on and thus having the chance to get more wins. It makes perfect sense. Even someone with 200 wins and 250 loses is a huge acheivement because they manage to stay in GSL for so long. Because a low quality player will not even get a chance to play that many games.
If you take a look at players with 100 OSL wins, they are pretty much the top of the top players.
On September 28 2012 10:29 Doubting wrote: Does this include Code A and GSTL? I don't think Squirtle has played that many Code S games
It includes Code A, not sure about GSTL. You can tell because players like Ryung and Byun have only been in about 4 Code S seasons each and are still on this list.
Leenock himself was in Code A for 6 months.
But that list really makes MVP, MKP, MC's win-rates look quite impressive; since they *still* top it despite rarely dropping out of Code S and being there since the open seasons.
Byun has been in like 7 Code S seasons and has been a GSL regular ever since open season 2, not sure where you're getting 4 seasons from >_>
wow nice list ty. Just shows how dominant the 3 kings have been MVP, NesTea and MC to have played against the best for so long and still have 60%+ win rate
On September 28 2012 11:56 Fionn wrote: I'm bored, so I'm gonna calculate the win ratios for all the Top 20 without GSTL results. This is purely GSL singles results.
On September 28 2012 11:56 Fionn wrote: I'm bored, so I'm gonna calculate the win ratios for all the Top 20 without GSTL results. This is purely GSL singles results.
On September 28 2012 11:56 Fionn wrote: I'm bored, so I'm gonna calculate the win ratios for all the Top 20 without GSTL results. This is purely GSL singles results.
Strangely enough there must be a minimum sample size to be listed on the rankings cause otherwise LG-IM.Yonghwa would also have a 80% GSL win rate as he is 12-3 yet still stuck in code B. DRG v2.0?
On September 28 2012 16:00 Probe1 wrote: The way I read it MVP #1 Nestea #2. THE WAY IT WILL ALWAYS BE.
If anything it does go to show just how dominant these 2 players were (overall.. and for their respective races).
Well more so for NesTea (as Mvp is still winning tournaments - which just shows how insanely good Mvp is considering his ongoing problems with his wrists/neck)
Mvp NesTea MC - In years to come those 3 will be remembered as the kings of WOL. In terms of results, stretches of dominance etc. Its those 3 that stand out for me. (although if DongRaeGu wins another GSL before Hots he could make a claim to the title of zerg king for the first period of sc2 (considering the overseas tournaments he's won and his time as MVP's ace in team leagues)).
On September 28 2012 11:56 Fionn wrote: I'm bored, so I'm gonna calculate the win ratios for all the Top 20 without GSTL results. This is purely GSL singles results.
Strangely enough there must be a minimum sample size to be listed on the rankings cause otherwise LG-IM.Yonghwa would also have a 80% GSL win rate as he is 12-3 yet still stuck in code B. DRG v2.0?
The rankings in the OP are by win total rather than win percent
They should use some kind of coefficient to differenciate someone with like 60% winrate with 200 games played and someone with the same winrate but with 100 games played, the first one being way more impressive ( like roughly MVP and DRG in this case, DRG has a slightly better winrate but almost twice less games played) So it's good they chose the raw number of wins for this ranking ^^
Dunno why Leenock is getting such praise... He also has a below 60% winrecord vs DRG's 64%. I would rank leenock and DRG at an even stead, not below or above eachother and Nestea? Well Nestea is always above average but he just doesn't shine like he usto.
And yet there are still cries of how volatile SC2 is...
Nestea/MVP/MC will forever be remembered as the original three who won GSL's for their respective races, it's amazing. MVP having an almost 63% winrate over a span of 250 games+ is impressive as well.(hope he wins a 5th gsll)
It seems SC2 really needs someone with 80% winrate in 600games for it not to be considered volatile -,-
On September 28 2012 22:35 Andr3 wrote: And yet there are still cries of how volatile SC2 is...
Nestea/MVP/MC will forever be remembered as the original three who won GSL's for their respective races, it's amazing. MVP having an almost 63% winrate over a span of 250 games+ is impressive as well.(hope he wins a 5th gsll)
It seems SC2 really needs someone with 80% winrate in 600games for it not to be considered volatile -,-
On September 28 2012 10:29 Doubting wrote: Does this include Code A and GSTL? I don't think Squirtle has played that many Code S games
It includes Code A, not sure about GSTL. You can tell because players like Ryung and Byun have only been in about 4 Code S seasons each and are still on this list.
Leenock himself was in Code A for 6 months.
But that list really makes MVP, MKP, MC's win-rates look quite impressive; since they *still* top it despite rarely dropping out of Code S and being there since the open seasons.
Byun has been in like 7 Code S seasons and has been a GSL regular ever since open season 2, not sure where you're getting 4 seasons from >_>
I don't think it's balance, I'd rather call it meta.
It's similiar like zerg currently have an advantage, and it was the same before. You also have to consider koreans in SC2 are really inclined to play terrans, probably because of so many terran legends from BW.
It's also why terran is performing alright currently, even though majority of people would consider protoss/zerg stronger in Korea at the moment. There's just a lot of really good terrans.
On September 28 2012 17:01 .Wraath wrote: Surprised MKP is not on the list.
MKP is #2. Where he truly belongs!!!
well played, sir!
Also: we see a lot of relicts from the GOMTvT era. Todays distribution with 2-3-3 with 2 P for RO8 is ok i guess.
I really wonder if GomTvT was due to skill, or to balance, or even to both... Can't get this figured out in my mind...
Well it may be interesting for balance issues to know exactly what went wrong but I'd say it's quite save to say that both the maps and the early balance favoured T.
On September 28 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote: Each time I see this kind of statistics, I would like to try an experiment, so things are settled...
What would be the stats if MVP, MMA, Polt, Taeja, MKP, etc. played Z or P, and if Nestea, July, Leenock and DRG played T ?
Would we have the same but with Z and t swapped, or not ... ?
I really wonder if GomTvT was due to skill, or to balance, or even to both... Can't get this figured out in my mind...
(NB: If it appears to be balance, fine, because we have a rather balanced GSL season so far in terms of races distribution).
Mvp is very strong in all 3 races getting top 20 KR GM as random before his wrists exploded. Whenever MKP gets eliminated from GSL he all ins everyone on the ladder for like a day or two as protoss. I think most of the people at the top would be pretty good as every race. Mvp is known to have beaten a lot of top players as zerg including MKP and Bomber back when Bomber was still code S. There is also an interview with MKP somewhere on TL where he claimed to be able equal with all 3 races but chose terran as his main race because "it looks the coolest"
On September 28 2012 22:28 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Dunno why Leenock is getting such praise... He also has a below 60% winrecord vs DRG's 64%. I would rank leenock and DRG at an even stead, not below or above eachother and Nestea? Well Nestea is always above average but he just doesn't shine like he usto.
On September 28 2012 23:39 Ragnarork wrote: Each time I see this kind of statistics, I would like to try an experiment, so things are settled...
What would be the stats if MVP, MMA, Polt, Taeja, MKP, etc. played Z or P, and if Nestea, July, Leenock and DRG played T ?
Would we have the same but with Z and t swapped, or not ... ?
I really wonder if GomTvT was due to skill, or to balance, or even to both... Can't get this figured out in my mind...
(NB: If it appears to be balance, fine, because we have a rather balanced GSL season so far in terms of races distribution).
Mvp is very strong in all 3 races getting top 20 KR GM as random before his wrists exploded. Whenever MKP gets eliminated from GSL he all ins everyone on the ladder for like a day or two as protoss. I think most of the people at the top would be pretty good as every race. Mvp is known to have beaten a lot of top players as zerg including MKP and Bomber back when Bomber was still code S. There is also an interview with MKP somewhere on TL where he claimed to be able equal with all 3 races but chose terran as his main race because "it looks the coolest"
Then it could be a strong argument against "imbalanced race", but rather "imbalanced skill distribution in races".
Then, that's a few example that show it's actually possible, but that can't be used to generalize.
And then you look at the ELO ranking as well as how certain players have been performing in the last few months, scratch your head and go "Koreans *shrug*"
On September 28 2012 13:24 Taidanii wrote: Yeah, to be honest I don't understand why this is listed by total wins. It should be listed by percentage, as that's the actual indicator of prestige. DRG being at the very top in this scenario. Percentage identifies the spread of wins and loses. For instance, according to this, someone in the GSL with 200 wins and 250 loses would be at the top. That's a tad ridiculous, but it would be the case if the stat existed.
Except for the fact that a higher number of games implies that the player has played well enough to consistently make it into the later rounds of tournaments, which also indicates that the player is more likely to have faced tougher opposition.
What's more impressive, a 90% ratio if you're only playing sub 50% players, or a 60% ratio if you're playing the best there is? I'd rather have the 60%.
On September 28 2012 13:24 Taidanii wrote: Yeah, to be honest I don't understand why this is listed by total wins. It should be listed by percentage, as that's the actual indicator of prestige. DRG being at the very top in this scenario. Percentage identifies the spread of wins and loses. For instance, according to this, someone in the GSL with 200 wins and 250 loses would be at the top. That's a tad ridiculous, but it would be the case if the stat existed.
Except for the fact that a higher number of games implies that the player has played well enough to consistently make it into the later rounds of tournaments, which also indicates that the player is more likely to have faced tougher opposition.
What's more impressive, a 90% ratio if you're only playing sub 50% players, or a 60% ratio if you're playing the best there is? I'd rather have the 60%.
i'd rather have the 90% and people going 'oh shit, DAT %tage WINRATE!'
not that i'd have 90% winrate even against platinum players...
off-topic, there's always up-and-comers in the GSL leagues and if you've ever watched hunterxhunter, being that 90% player would mean you're that rookie slayer!
I think the Leenock stats are pretty misleading, if you just took match victories of just CODE S it would be completely different. Leenocks victories probably mostly come from up and downs, and Code A.. Not saying Leenock isn't good, just saying its pretty misleading.
Only Code S or with code A together? If only Code S then I really cant understand something. I heard Nestea is the only one who was always in code S and why he hasnt the most played GSL games? Problably he made to many (quick) 2-0 wins and Leenock with many 2-1 or something.
On September 30 2012 20:32 Dingodile wrote: Only Code S or with code A together? If only Code S then I really cant understand something. I heard Nestea is the only one who was always in code S and why he hasnt the most played GSL games? Problably he made to many (quick) 2-0 wins and Leenock with many 2-1 or something.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jsny4.jpg)
Mvp 148 - 85 / 63.5%
MC 112 - 74 / 60.2%
Leenock 109 - 77 / 58.6%
And what is up with ST_July lately?
Mvp 
NesTea 
MC - In years to come those 3 will be remembered as the kings of WOL. In terms of results, stretches of dominance etc. Its those 3 that stand out for me. (although if DongRaeGu wins another GSL before Hots he could make a claim to the title of zerg king for the first period of sc2 (considering the overseas tournaments he's won and his time as MVP's ace in team leagues)).
