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On September 14 2012 06:01 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 04:48 MLG_Adam wrote:On September 14 2012 04:41 Morieris wrote:On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote:
So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us? You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves. There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program. So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players. Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that. No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet. Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent. Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
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DAYUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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This is okay guess, but I don't see all the hyper. Its nice, but not OMFG BEST THING EVER
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I WANT NESTEA VS SKYHIGH!
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I think this is great, will I be able to watch this in HQ as a gold member?
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On September 14 2012 06:07 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 06:01 NoobSkills wrote:On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 04:48 MLG_Adam wrote:On September 14 2012 04:41 Morieris wrote:On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote:
So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us? You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves. There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program. So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players. Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that. No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet. Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent. Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG. I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great. Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments. Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year?
Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition?
Because that is basically where this all started.
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cant wait for this, awesome :D:D
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On September 14 2012 06:18 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 06:07 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 06:01 NoobSkills wrote:On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 04:48 MLG_Adam wrote:On September 14 2012 04:41 Morieris wrote:On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote:
So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us? You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves. There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program. So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players. Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that. No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet. Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent. Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG. I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great. Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments. Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs. Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Exactly, if people wanted a "pure" competition, we would see almost no Koreans at all. What Korean player is going to spend several grand just to hack their way through the open bracket of MLG while suffering form jetlag?
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On September 14 2012 06:18 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 06:07 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 06:01 NoobSkills wrote:On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 04:48 MLG_Adam wrote:On September 14 2012 04:41 Morieris wrote:On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote:
So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us? You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves. There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program. So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players. Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that. No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet. Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent. Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG. I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great. Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments. Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs. Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
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I expect more upsets than usual because of cross server play.
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On September 14 2012 06:29 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 06:18 Condor Hero wrote:On September 14 2012 06:07 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 06:01 NoobSkills wrote:On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote:On September 14 2012 04:48 MLG_Adam wrote:On September 14 2012 04:41 Morieris wrote:On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote:
So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us? You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves. There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program. So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players. Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that. No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet. Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent. Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG. I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great. Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments. Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs. Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started. Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.). I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points. The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue. Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
I agree it shouldn't be part of the championship tour, but it's still great  .
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Will they all be playing cross server? 
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How friggin' hilarious would it be if Foreigners got a convincing win over Kespa players... I know, a coke dream, but seriously...
I WANT MY COKE DREAMS TO BE A REALITY!
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On September 14 2012 00:14 shindigs wrote:
aw no jaedong, but still looks amazing
Who do you think Lee Jae Dong "JD" is if its not Jaedong?
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Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
pretty lame
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On September 14 2012 06:44 taLbuk wrote:
Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
pretty lame
Yes, exclusive
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On September 14 2012 06:44 taLbuk wrote:
Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
pretty lame
Definitely never at IPL. However, Dreamhack is a possibility since they are on somewhat good terms with MLG.
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On September 14 2012 06:44 taLbuk wrote:
Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
pretty lame
As explained at the time, it means they are exclusive to MLG, but MLG can of course choose to release them from that whenever it wants. Sundance mentioned possibly working with Dreamhack, but you can bet you won't ever see them at any tournament that MLG considers a competitor, meaning definitely not any NA events, and probably not any tournaments that include NA events (like IEM).
Basically, when Kespa tried to bully around the Korean scene, there was a collective boycott by the rest of the scene, a big fight, and Kespa backed down. When they tried to bully the foreign scene (though not nearly as much, at least at first) no one seemed to care.
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Nah this is getting too late. Now the real hot topic is KeSPA guys v.s. GSL guys. KeSPA v.s. foreigner? Not that interesting.
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EPT
