Features Top 24 Ranked StarCraft II Players from KeSPA’s Proleague and Western StarCraft II Players Competing Head to Head
Major League Gaming (MLG) the Korean eSports Association (KeSPA), and the International eSports Group (IEG) today announced the MvP (MLG vs. Proleague) Invitational. This new program is the next groundbreaking step in the MLG/IEG/KeSPA collaboration announced earlier this year and is the foundation of future programs among KeSPA, IEG and LG.
Kicking off later this month, the MvP Invitational will feature 48 of the world’s best StarCraft II players including the top 24 ranked StarCraft II Players in KeSPA’s Proleague (see list below), 12 players from North America, six players from Europe (EU) and six players from Korea /Taiwan. Broadcasts of the competition begin September 24 at majorleaguegaming.com with matches airing weekly.
Over the next six weeks, players will compete for a chance at $10,000 in prizes, as well as eight coveted spots in Group Play and an all-expenses paid trip to compete at the MLG Fall Championship in Dallas, Texas, from November 2-4. The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan. These top eight Group Play spots are in addition to the Group placements from the MLG Online Qualifiers and those earned at the Summer Championship in Raleigh.
“We are excited to unveil the MvP Invitational as the next step in our multi-year global partnership with KeSPA, a collaboration that aims to further bridge the Western and Korean StarCraft worlds,” said Sundance DiGiovanni, CEO of Major League Gaming. “This flagship competitive program guarantees that top StarCraft II players from KeSPA’s Proleague will compete LIVE at the MLG Fall Championship in Dallas. We plan to expand MvP and roll out new programs in 2013.”
“Together with MLG, we are continuing our quest to bring the world’s top players into the international spotlight and the MvP Invitational will further the global expansion of eSports,” said Lee Young Hee, President of KeSPA.
“IEG will continue to contribute to various events between KeSPA players and international players. With the successful launch of the MvP Invitational, we will make an effort to provide high-quality content around the world,” said Jae Myung Lee, President of IEG.
Additional details about the competition rules, players and broadcast will be announced in the coming weeks. The participating top 24 ranked StarCraft II Players from KeSPA’s Proleague include:
Changes to the MLG Fall Season
MLG is excited to announce a new format for our Fall 2012 Season. Throughout MLG’s history, our goal has been to provide the highest level of competitive gaming in the world for players and fans. We have continually strived to redefine esports by experimenting with new formats and continually pushing the envelope. With this in mind we are pleased to announce a new format for our Fall Season.
More Competition - MvP (MLG vs. Proleague) Invitational
In an effort to deliver more global competition, earlier today we announced the MvP (MLG vs. Proleague) Invitational . Kicking off later this month, it will feature 48 of the world’s best StarCraft II players including the top 24 ranked StarCraft II Players in KeSPA’s Proleague , 12 players from North America, six players from Europe (EU) and six players from Korea /Taiwan.
Players will compete for a chance at $10,000 in prizes, as well as eight coveted spots in group play and an all-expenses paid trip to compete at the MLG Fall Championship in Dallas, Texas, from November 2-4. The top eight from the MvP Invitational will join the top finishers from the MLG Online Qualifiers, and the top eight finishers at the Summer Championship in Raleigh who will also receive all-expenses paid trips to Dallas to compete in group play.
More Online Broadcasts
Because of the high demand for regular online content, we will be presenting more competitive gaming programming at www.majorleaguegaming.com, including broadcasts of the MvP Invitational that will begin airing weekly starting September 24.
Our broadcasts will continue with StarCraft II online qualifiers in the coming weeks, beginning with European qualifiers that will be followed up by Korean and North American competition. The online qualifiers will result in group play placement at the Fall Championship.
To add to the broadcast presentation, we are excited to announce that Nick “Axslav” Ranish and Alex “Axeltoss” Rodriguez are joining the MLG team to help broadcast our new content, and will serve as our live events expert analysts and commentators. We will also be working together on new MLG content like top 10s, expert tips and analysis and highlighting the best content to help viewers better understand StarCraft II and improve their gameplay.
A complete broadcast schedule will be released soon, but expect more competition and analysis as we head into November.
Everything’s Bigger in Texas
The MLG Fall Championship in Dallas will be MLG’s biggest of the year. We have already announced the addition of a pre-release Halo 4 tournament and a global StarCraft II tournament. Competitor passes for Halo 4 are now on sale and additional games will be announced soon.
As everyone prepares to make Dallas the most insane event ever and we bring you new broadcast programming, we will no longer be holding the previously announced Arena activities.
Please stay tuned for more details about the Fall Broadcast line-up and Fall Championship including new game, player and caster announcements in the coming weeks.
Nice, 12 NA players. Might not be the closest competition right now but it's good that you're at least somewhat trying to grow the scene and give opportunities to players.
@ GTR: Oh, I forgot that. Hm, that's a bit disappointing, I'd have hoped for something bigger than that. A decent beginning, I'd say. Good to see that there'll be Kespa players at the championship event.
Edit: I have to say, though, I'd have much preferred another simple arena event.
This sounds great! Would have maybe preferred the NA/EU split to be mor elike 8 and 10 instead of 12/6.. but that's me being nitpicky ;p Can't wait to tune in!
"I felt a great disturbance in the TL, as if millions of nerds suddenly cheered out loud in excitement and were suddenly silenced by sounds keyboard writing. I feel something awesome has happened."
On September 14 2012 00:07 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
So are the KeSPA players actually playing against the NA, EU and KR players or are they just playing each other? Otherwise it'll seem a bit silly to have somebody who goes out in the first round make the championships, just because they were from NA and all NA did badly.
On September 14 2012 00:07 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
So are the KeSPA players actually playing against the NA, EU and KR players or are they just playing each other? Otherwise it'll seem a bit silly to have somebody who goes out in the first round make the championships, just because they were from NA and all NA did badly.
On September 14 2012 00:07 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
So are the KeSPA players actually playing against the NA, EU and KR players or are they just playing each other? Otherwise it'll seem a bit silly to have somebody who goes out in the first round make the championships, just because they were from NA and all NA did badly.
They all play each other.
So if all the NA pros go out in the Ro48, 2 players from the Ro48 qualify for the Fall Championship group play? That seems a little silly.
On September 14 2012 00:12 Condor Hero wrote: why 12 NA players? it's disproportionate and I think everyone expects our NA players to get smashed
Most likely because MLG is NA based and theres possibly also some KeSPA influence to try and give their players a better chance to win. By that I mean: they only really just started playing, a couple are proving to have incredible natural talent and picking it up very quickly indeed (Rain, for example, is really impressive) but most will need a few months more practice to really find their place. Putting them up against a ton of foreigner players should increase their odds of deep runs; especially having a lot of NA slots given that probably the scariest foreigners like Stephano, ThorZain, MaNa are EU.
Wait a second, the top finishers from the online qualifiers get a direct seed for the upcoming MLG? Weren't they supposed to get a seed in that invite-only qualifier, or am I mixing up tournament now... so many good tournaments going on... @.@
On September 14 2012 00:07 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
So are the KeSPA players actually playing against the NA, EU and KR players or are they just playing each other? Otherwise it'll seem a bit silly to have somebody who goes out in the first round make the championships, just because they were from NA and all NA did badly.
They all play each other.
So if all the NA pros go out in the Ro48, 2 players from the Ro48 qualify for the Fall Championship group play? That seems a little silly.
Yeah this is confusing as hell. So if they all play each other (based on random seeding or w/e) do you take the highest placing from regions to call the top 8??
The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
This actually means this won't be a mixed bracket but separate tournaments ? Awwwwwww, it would be so lame ! (understand, so awesome if it's mixed, so....... deceivingly sad if it's not)
On September 14 2012 00:07 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
So are the KeSPA players actually playing against the NA, EU and KR players or are they just playing each other? Otherwise it'll seem a bit silly to have somebody who goes out in the first round make the championships, just because they were from NA and all NA did badly.
They all play each other.
So if all the NA pros go out in the Ro48, 2 players from the Ro48 qualify for the Fall Championship group play? That seems a little silly.
I agree! I hope this is not the case - i'm quite confused about this format, particulary that line you originally quoted. Hopefully this gets explained in full detail.
Otherwise, this looks really cool and i'm really looking forward to it =) Fun idea heh
ok so they will play each other, that IS definitely fucking great !!! but the qualification of eliminated people seems strange to me, as is said above :D
Can I ask how the 24 westerners will be decided, sorry if I missed it but from what I could gather it's the players that qualify for MLG Dallas group play?
On September 14 2012 00:33 BgSBendeR wrote: Why 12 from NA...? Why not 8 - 8 -8 There's hardly any competitive NA players..
Ya i know right. I would rather see an equal amount of people. Koreans will win it likely. I enjoy watching MLG stuff, I never understood there logic with how they invite players, or there format for tournaments. Oh well they are being nice to kespa.
On September 14 2012 00:37 Tidus Mino wrote: Can I ask how the 24 westerners will be decided, sorry if I missed it but from what I could gather it's the players that qualify for MLG Dallas group play?
No, unless I have completely misunderstood, it appears that the Top 2 NA players and Top EU Player will make up 3 of the 8 players that go into MLG Dallas group play from this Tournament. The Top 4 Kespa players and the top Korean (non-Kespa) player will make up the rest of the 8. The Top 8 from MLG Summer Championship are already seeded into MLG Dallas Group play. Then you have players qualifying through the er Qualifiers. I have no idea how the initial 24 westerners are selected for this tournament.
This is so confusing trying to work out where all the specific players are going to be and this is compounded by the plethora of other tournaments happening over the next few weeks - GSL, OSL, NASL, WCS, WCG, Dreamhack, IPL, GD Studio Invitational, IEM Gangzhou plus the HOTS tournaments! Also isn't there going to be another Iron Squid?
Some of the kespa players make no sense . Bisu for example is not Top 24 in neither Kespa rank nor Proleague wins . Still i am looking forward to this .
On September 14 2012 00:58 raga4ka wrote: Some of the kespa players make no sense . Bisu for example is not Top 24 in neither Kespa rank nor Proleague wins . Still i am looking forward to this .
On September 14 2012 00:59 Incomplet wrote: THIS IS HUGEEEE!!! Roro and SK Telecom Rain are going to destroy everyone depending on who the 6 ESF guys that are invited.
Awesome, it would be nice to explain the thinking behind the 12 NA players, other than Kespa asking MLG to give them a bracket where they will look good it makes no sense for me. If you're going to tell me it's to grow the NA scene, NA players against kespa players that can go toe to toe with code S caliber players is going to look ugly to say the least.
This might sound silly, but If the NA scene was absolutely dead with zero competitive players, I could understand MLG insisting on having 8NA 8EU 8KR, just because it's equitable and a good way to analyze where each community is at.
But very blatantly forcing more NA players than far more competitive communities for no legitimate competitive reason is, simply put, stupid. How did someone think this would be the right choice? Having 8 participants from every region is already favouring NA. Having more is just tomfoolery!
8NA 8EU 8KR makes more sense, as it is equitable. 6NA 12EU 6KR makes more sense, as it provides more foreigner vs korean games without drastically reducing the competitive quality of the matches. 6NA 6EU 12KR makes more sense, as it would provide the highest quality of play.
12NA 6EU 6KR makes the least amount of sense possible. I don't see how it could be a sponsor thing. Would having Socke, Dimaga, Whitera, Goody, Bly, Nightend, etc. instead of tt1, goswser, hawk, etc. really have a negative impact on sponsorship exposure to target audiences? I really don't think so. If there's another reason for the NA favouritism I'd really like to hear it.
All that aside, this is going to be fucking awesome.
On September 14 2012 01:11 SiguR wrote: This might sound silly, but If the NA scene was absolutely dead with zero competitive players, I could understand MLG insisting on having 8NA 8EU 8KR, just because it's equitable and a good way to analyze where each community is at.
But very blatantly forcing more NA players than far more competitive communities for no legitimate competitive reason is, simply put, stupid. How did someone think this would be the right choice? Having 8 participants from every reason is already favouring NA. Having more is just tomfoolery.
8NA 8EU 8KR makes more sense, as it is equitable. 6NA 12EU 6KR makes more sense, as it provides more foreigner vs korean games without drastically reducing the competitive quality of the matches. 6NA 6EU 12KR makes more sense, as it would provide the highest quality of play.
12NA 6EU 6KR makes the least amount of sense possible. I don't see how it could be a sponsor thing. Would having Socke, Dimaga, Whitera, Goody, Bly, Nightend, etc. instead of tt1, goswser, hawk, etc. really have a negative impact on sponsorship exposure to target audiences? I really don't think so. If there's another reason for the NA favouritism I'd really like to hear it.
All that aside, this is going to be fucking awesome.
Yep this pretty much sums it up. MLG, it is not too late to reconsider the distribution of invites, do the right thing!
Wait I don't get it. So is it kespa vs. kespa and na vs. na first etc? Or do you just play an open tournament and then the best 4 kespa players etc. qualify!?
Online league, the competition is just too widespread (12 NA players? cmon) and we don't need this online league anymore to watch these KeSPA players. We already have OSL, GSL and Proleague. On top of that we also have WCS, WCG, Dreamhack and other tournaments running so close upon each other that you get fucking sick and tired of the game (at least I do).
And my guess is that you will have to pay to watch this, or at least pay to have decent quality, no? So it is just another thing to pay for. Will probably just watch if there is some really big match, but ye gl everyone.
On September 14 2012 01:22 Cuce wrote: wait all proleague members will be kespa sanctioned?
what if top 4 is non kespa koreans?
It's taken from the current Proleague top 24 Starcraft II rank. next season might be different, but this is the first iteration of the MvP program.
Also, to clarify, KeSPA plays NA/EU/KrT and vice versa. There's no inside a region play until the playoffs. More details on format and such later. We'll also be announcing the NA/EU/KrT players as they finalize. That list is pretty solid too.
For those folks bashing NA players. Come on, show some love.
On September 14 2012 00:07 MLGAnnouncements wrote: The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
So are the KeSPA players actually playing against the NA, EU and KR players or are they just playing each other? Otherwise it'll seem a bit silly to have somebody who goes out in the first round make the championships, just because they were from NA and all NA did badly.
They all play each other.
So if all the NA pros go out in the Ro48, 2 players from the Ro48 qualify for the Fall Championship group play? That seems a little silly.
I agree! I hope this is not the case - i'm quite confused about this format, particulary that line you originally quoted. Hopefully this gets explained in full detail.
Otherwise, this looks really cool and i'm really looking forward to it =) Fun idea heh
I am pretty sure that the top eight that they're talking about in Yonnua's quote are the online qualifiers and that the top eight from this MvP tournament also gets a spot in the Fall Championships.
On September 14 2012 01:22 Cuce wrote: wait all proleague members will be kespa sanctioned?
what if top 4 is non kespa koreans?
It's taken from the current Proleague top 24 Starcraft II rank. next season might be different, but this is the first iteration of the MvP program.
Also, to clarify, KeSPA plays NA/EU/KrT and vice versa. There's no inside a region play until the playoffs. More details on format and such later. We'll also be announcing the NA/EU/KrT players as they finalize. That list is pretty solid too.
For those folks bashing NA players. Come on, show some love.
Agreed, I think there is some really good players,
Scarlet, Idra, TT1, Huk, Vibe, Select, Major, Slush, Illusion.... Plus Catz always makes for entertaining games =P
im looking forward to it.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing. But its going to depend entirely on the picks, Scarlet is far and away the best NA player, but she hasnt played in any MLG's this season so I'm not sure if would qualify.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing.
and how long does this american audience stay interested when every american gets eliminated in the first round?
On September 14 2012 01:20 Gosi wrote: Online league, the competition is just too widespread (12 NA players? cmon) and we don't need this online league anymore to watch these KeSPA players. We already have OSL, GSL and Proleague. On top of that we also have WCS, WCG, Dreamhack and other tournaments running so close upon each other that you get fucking sick and tired of the game (at least I do).
And my guess is that you will have to pay to watch this, or at least pay to have decent quality, no? So it is just another thing to pay for. Will probably just watch if there is some really big match, but ye gl everyone.
Lol thanks for telling us that you don't wanna watch bro.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing.
and how long does this american audience stay interested when every american gets eliminated in the first round?
i guess hes right. upsets will never happen in this game
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing.
and how long does this american audience stay interested when every american gets eliminated in the first round?
By that logic 1 round, which is more than they would be interested if none of them were invited in the first place.
This NA hate is getting stupid. Not every EU pro has a better shot at winning the thing than an NA pro. There are plenty of good players in NA. Suppy/Scarlett/Violet all NA at this point. Select has been living in Seattle hasn't he? Idra did well in his last tournament appearance, and may be on the road back to form. Sheth's still great and can take games off koreans.
Yeah, EU has tons of good players too, but just stop blatantly bashing the NA scene, let MLG run the tournament they spent months planning and if it doesn't work out then you have some data to use to show them that it shouldn't be used again in the future.
I don't think more American players = bigger audience. The biggest audiences are gathered from high tier foreigners vs high tier Koreans. Meaning inviting more established EU players would be the smarter choice. I think 8 player invites for NA would be more than sufficient for the current talent in NA atm.
On September 14 2012 01:22 Cuce wrote: wait all proleague members will be kespa sanctioned?
what if top 4 is non kespa koreans?
It's taken from the current Proleague top 24 Starcraft II rank. next season might be different, but this is the first iteration of the MvP program.
Also, to clarify, KeSPA plays NA/EU/KrT and vice versa. There's no inside a region play until the playoffs. More details on format and such later. We'll also be announcing the NA/EU/KrT players as they finalize. That list is pretty solid too.
For those folks bashing NA players. Come on, show some love.
On September 14 2012 01:20 Gosi wrote: Online league, the competition is just too widespread (12 NA players? cmon) and we don't need this online league anymore to watch these KeSPA players. We already have OSL, GSL and Proleague. On top of that we also have WCS, WCG, Dreamhack and other tournaments running so close upon each other that you get fucking sick and tired of the game (at least I do).
And my guess is that you will have to pay to watch this, or at least pay to have decent quality, no? So it is just another thing to pay for. Will probably just watch if there is some really big match, but ye gl everyone.
Lol thanks for telling us that you don't wanna watch bro.
Thanks for thanking me because I stated my opinion on a forum where you write and discuss things, "bro"...
On September 14 2012 01:11 SiguR wrote: This might sound silly, but If the NA scene was absolutely dead with zero competitive players, I could understand MLG insisting on having 8NA 8EU 8KR, just because it's equitable and a good way to analyze where each community is at.
But very blatantly forcing more NA players than far more competitive communities for no legitimate competitive reason is, simply put, stupid. How did someone think this would be the right choice? Having 8 participants from every region is already favouring NA. Having more is just tomfoolery!
8NA 8EU 8KR makes more sense, as it is equitable. 6NA 12EU 6KR makes more sense, as it provides more foreigner vs korean games without drastically reducing the competitive quality of the matches. 6NA 6EU 12KR makes more sense, as it would provide the highest quality of play.
12NA 6EU 6KR makes the least amount of sense possible. I don't see how it could be a sponsor thing. Would having Socke, Dimaga, Whitera, Goody, Bly, Nightend, etc. instead of tt1, goswser, hawk, etc. really have a negative impact on sponsorship exposure to target audiences? I really don't think so. If there's another reason for the NA favouritism I'd really like to hear it.
All that aside, this is going to be fucking awesome.
Yeah, well said. We already know how bad the NA players are. There's no need to remind us.
The whole argument about "helping grow the NA scene" is nonsense. Imagine an NA-only tournament and think about how many people would watch that. There's simply no interest in these people. Forcing them down our necks won't do any good.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing.
and how long does this american audience stay interested when every american gets eliminated in the first round?
By that logic 1 round, which is more than they would be interested if none of them were invited in the first place.
This NA hate is getting stupid. Not every EU pro has a better shot at winning the thing than an NA pro. There are plenty of good players in NA. Suppy/Scarlett/Violet all NA at this point. Select has been living in Seattle hasn't he? Idra did well in his last tournament appearance, and may be on the road back to form. Sheth's still great and can take games off koreans.
Yeah, EU has tons of good players too, but just stop blatantly bashing the NA scene, let MLG run the tournament they spent months planning and if it doesn't work out then you have some data to use to show them that it shouldn't be used again in the future.
Violet isn't remotely North American.
Also, calling it hate is silly. No one said every EU pro is better than every NA pro. But it's hard to argue against the top foreigners being EU players, and EU having more top foreigners in general. Making it an even split would make some sense, since it's MLG, but having that many more NA than EU players isn't a good idea. In all honesty, most of them will go out round 1.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing.
and how long does this american audience stay interested when every american gets eliminated in the first round?
i guess hes right. upsets will never happen in this game
so we promote the na scene by inviting them and then praying for upsets? that way they are sure to improve! if mlg want to grow the american scene they need to make american players work for it rather than just asking nicely and then rewarding their failure with invite places anyway
making leagues which pay money to up and coming players promotes growth, open qualifiers promote growth. invite (bad) already well known players to face off against some of the best in the world promotes stagnation and rewards failure, which long term only hurts america.
MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing.
and how long does this american audience stay interested when every american gets eliminated in the first round?
By that logic 1 round, which is more than they would be interested if none of them were invited in the first place.
This NA hate is getting stupid. Not every EU pro has a better shot at winning the thing than an NA pro. There are plenty of good players in NA. Suppy/Scarlett/Violet all NA at this point. Select has been living in Seattle hasn't he? Idra did well in his last tournament appearance, and may be on the road back to form. Sheth's still great and can take games off koreans.
Yeah, EU has tons of good players too, but just stop blatantly bashing the NA scene, let MLG run the tournament they spent months planning and if it doesn't work out then you have some data to use to show them that it shouldn't be used again in the future.
Violet isn't remotely North American.
Also, calling it hate is silly. No one said every EU pro is better than every NA pro. But it's hard to argue against the top foreigners being EU players, and EU having more top foreigners in general. Making it an even split would make some sense, since it's MLG, but having that many more NA than EU players isn't a good idea. In all honesty, most of them will go out round 1.
Select is also not even remotely North American, they have both chosen to reside here at least semi-permanently, so for the sake of these tournaments I'm sure they would be considered North American rather than Korean.
You're right, nobody said that every eu player is better than every pro, and I couldn't make that argument that the best foreigners are from EU, but what determines a foreigner vs a korean, do select and violet count as korean in the same sense of the starcraft world anymore?
All this is just argumentative for arguments sake. Between skill and marketability, this is what MLG decided would be in their best interest. Until the event actually happens, we are in no way better to determine how many from each area are invited than those who have been working in esports for 10+ years.
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I'm stoked, and it makes sense... But only six euro spots is rather unfortunate. Long as you can get Scarlett to participate in this however all will be forgiven. Make it happen MLG!
With that said, this is the tournament we've all been waiting for really. Can't wait to see some of the foreigner vs Kespa matches.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing.
and how long does this american audience stay interested when every american gets eliminated in the first round?
By that logic 1 round, which is more than they would be interested if none of them were invited in the first place.
This NA hate is getting stupid. Not every EU pro has a better shot at winning the thing than an NA pro. There are plenty of good players in NA. Suppy/Scarlett/Violet all NA at this point. Select has been living in Seattle hasn't he? Idra did well in his last tournament appearance, and may be on the road back to form. Sheth's still great and can take games off koreans.
Yeah, EU has tons of good players too, but just stop blatantly bashing the NA scene, let MLG run the tournament they spent months planning and if it doesn't work out then you have some data to use to show them that it shouldn't be used again in the future.
Violet isn't remotely North American.
Also, calling it hate is silly. No one said every EU pro is better than every NA pro. But it's hard to argue against the top foreigners being EU players, and EU having more top foreigners in general. Making it an even split would make some sense, since it's MLG, but having that many more NA than EU players isn't a good idea. In all honesty, most of them will go out round 1.
Actually, Violet is considered NA when he qualifies for tournaments like MLG and IEM. Not sure if your arguement makes sense. If we want to base it purely on skill, we should just invite more koreans. If not, then I don't see much difference picking the top 'foreigners' or the top 'NA' players. I agree that EU has more players that are more competitive with the Koreans but you see a lot of EU players in Dreamhack, IEMs that aren't really competitive. But since the tournament takes place there, it makes sense to have some locals.
I don't understand why they don't just give us the format now. It's not like the format isn't done and they need to make it tomorrow or something. Just another case of MLG milking something to hype up something to announce later. -_-
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I don't really agree. Casuals make up the bulk of SC2 viewership, and I'd imagine they'd like to see people they can relate to, and cheer on. This is consistent for all sports and all countries. I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the invites. I of course, would like to see 8/8/8, at least to make it more competitive and truly a "worldly" league. I can at least understand the reasoning....to a degree.
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
Viewership is definitely affected by the presence of EU and NA players. It is a fact that viewership goes DOWN after the last 'foreigner' (hate that term) is eliminated.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
In any case, for those speculating about the invites, here is the list of players we have formally invited. We did NOT include the Top 8 from Raleigh as they are already in Group Play: Korea/Taiwan DongRaeGu MarineKing Alicia MC Puma Mvp
Europe Naniwa Stephano Sase Sockeh Grubby Ret
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major ***THIS LIST IS INVITED PLAYERS, NOT CONFIRMED PLAYERS***
Also please remember that we still have online qualifiers for group play spots for KR, EU, and NA.
Edit: Top 8 from Raleigh that are already in Dallas Groups: Leenock First Taeja TheSTC Hero Violet Revival, Heart
On September 14 2012 00:07 MLGAnnouncements wrote:
Because of the high demand for regular online content, we will be presenting more competitive gaming programming at www.majorleaguegaming.com,
Really? Who is in demand for this? We already have multiple daily SC2 competitions along with personal streams. It's already over saturated as is, I don't think anyone was asking MLG for more content.
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
Viewership is definitely affected by the presence of EU and NA players. It is a fact that viewership goes DOWN after the last 'foreigner' (hate that term) is eliminated.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
In any case, for those speculating about the invites, here is the list of players we have formally invited. We did NOT include the Top 8 from Raleigh as they are already in Group Play: Korea/Taiwan DongRaeGu MarineKing Alicia MC Puma Mvp
Europe Naniwa Stephano Sase Sockeh Grubby Ret
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major ***THIS LIST IS INVITED PLAYERS, NOT CONFIRMED PLAYERS***
Also please remember that we still have online qualifiers for group play spots for KR, EU, and NA.
Glad to hear it Adam. There has been far to much focus on inviting Korean players to NA and EU events. It is awesome to see players being able to compete locally, rather than have to battle through 10-15 code S players in every event. It is the only way the NA players going to make it without moving to Seoul.
well 12 usa is ... 12 usa ^^ but otherwise then that funny if the 6 korea seeds not go 100% to gom but some to kespa by qualifier as well xD
i understand mlg is usa but its not good idea have 12 americans 6 europes, not even there are more good european players but its bad for america too. you harldy find 12 gamers who niot will gone smashy day when playing the koreans so you look worse then europe just but having more players
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
yep its fine mlg using alot americans but then they really have to say that they want american vs XY and not "best players" because sorry, that isnt true then !
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
Viewership is definitely affected by the presence of EU and NA players. It is a fact that viewership goes DOWN after the last 'foreigner' (hate that term) is eliminated.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
In any case, for those speculating about the invites, here is the list of players we have formally invited. We did NOT include the Top 8 from Raleigh as they are already in Group Play: Korea/Taiwan DongRaeGu MarineKing Alicia MC Puma Mvp
Europe Naniwa Stephano Sase Sockeh Grubby Ret
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major ***THIS LIST IS INVITED PLAYERS, NOT CONFIRMED PLAYERS***
Also please remember that we still have online qualifiers for group play spots for KR, EU, and NA.
Edit: Top 8 from Raleigh that are already in Dallas Groups: Leenock First Taeja TheSTC Hero Violet Revival, Heart
Thanks for the list of invited players. I do have a question. How many online qualifiers are there? Can players playing in this tournament also compete in the online qualifiers. Considering that you wrote
The top eight will include four KeSPA players, two from North America, one from EU and one from Korea/Taiwan.
does that mean Stephano (if he confirms) will have to finish in the Top 8 of this to make it MLG Fall Championship or will he qualify if he is just the last player from EU remaining?
I'm curious how group stage will work at Dallas, there will be 8 players seeded from Raleigh Summer Championship, then 8 from the MvP tournament, and then 8x3 more from each regional online qualifier? 40 players? I guess that makes sense because I imagine they free up a lot of budget with no arena.
Invite list looks pretty good overall I spose, I think more weighting should have been given to players who did well at WCS, namely Ostijiy, State and Insur, but oh well.
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
Now we have a team named MVP, a player named MVP, and an event named MVP. All we need now is for a sponsor named MVP to sponsor the MVP Invitational where MVP.DRG and IM.MVP face off in the finals and the world will explode.
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
Viewership is definitely affected by the presence of EU and NA players. It is a fact that viewership goes DOWN after the last 'foreigner' (hate that term) is eliminated.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
In any case, for those speculating about the invites, here is the list of players we have formally invited. We did NOT include the Top 8 from Raleigh as they are already in Group Play:
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major ***THIS LIST IS INVITED PLAYERS, NOT CONFIRMED PLAYERS***
On September 14 2012 02:18 Adebisi wrote: I'm curious how group stage will work at Dallas, there will be 8 players seeded from Raleigh Summer Championship, then 8 from the MvP tournament, and then 8x3 more from each regional online qualifier? 40 players? I guess that makes sense because I imagine they free up a lot of budget with no arena.
Invite list looks pretty good overall I spose, I think more weighting should have been given to players who did well at WCS, namely Ostijiy, State and Insur, but oh well.
Have they said how many qualify from the online qualifiers? I assumed they would just cut that down to 8 going something like 4 NA 2 EU and 2 KR. This will give them 24 players in groups same as columbus with 8 more joining from open bracket and using the same tournament format.
The real way for the NA scene to catch up with the EU, and for both to catch up with the Korean teams, is a) Expose them to more competition with Koreans of higher quality than Code A regulars and a handful of Code S players who turn up when they feel like it, and; b) Get more of the Korean pro-gaming house mentality.
Right now a lot of the NA and EU gaming houses are nowhere near the level of intensity and seriousness that the Koreans have - EG spend more time putting together promotional videos for whatever big name European they've outpaid anyone else for than actually posting results these days, for example. A handful of players can compete consistently with Koreans without the rigour they go through: NaNiWa (until recently); Stephano when he's not doing weird-ass shit for no reason (assuming he EVER takes his Code S seed); but the majority cannot. You wouldn't expect someone who does a month of running a mile a day to compete at the London Marathon with the elites, but by handing over more tourney places to foreigners as a free shot, this is essentially what MLG is doing.
Good for their wallets? Probably. Good for the competitive scene? Almost certainly not.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
I completely agree with this in some ways, Korea is the heart of Starcraft just like Vatican City is the heart of Christianity - analogy being is that it will never ever change, it can be improved but it will always be more beneficial in Korea
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors. The NA picks with the exception of maybe Caliber is the best NA has to offer. So it should be a great tournament.
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
IPL4 was the most competitive foreigner tournament of all time IMO, either that or MLG Providence because every Korean came to try for the 50k first place prize.
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
They get the best players, they put on the best production, they improve the fastest.
Not sure what else you want bud. They're NA based, they serve primarily NA fans.
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
Viewership is definitely affected by the presence of EU and NA players. It is a fact that viewership goes DOWN after the last 'foreigner' (hate that term) is eliminated.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
In any case, for those speculating about the invites, here is the list of players we have formally invited. We did NOT include the Top 8 from Raleigh as they are already in Group Play: Korea/Taiwan DongRaeGu MarineKing Alicia MC Puma Mvp
Europe Naniwa Stephano Sase Sockeh Grubby Ret
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major ***THIS LIST IS INVITED PLAYERS, NOT CONFIRMED PLAYERS***
Also please remember that we still have online qualifiers for group play spots for KR, EU, and NA.
Edit: Top 8 from Raleigh that are already in Dallas Groups: Leenock First Taeja TheSTC Hero Violet Revival, Heart
OH MY GOODNESS. Thank you for being so awesomely candid about that! Even if they don't all accept I'm incredably excited about those invites.
If a European declines however, gotta get Thorzain in there. The king in the North! Mind you, between him, Nerchio, Mana, and all the other europeans doing well right now any invite is a good invite as we see in the six you've got there, which I assume is based on MLG points of somekind
The problem is that there really isn't enough in the way of NA talent beyond what's in the EG house. Illusion and Scarlet are probably the the players I'm most excited to see get a chance. Kinda missed Select too even if he's another T.
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
IPL4 was the most competitive foreigner tournament of all time IMO, either that or MLG Providence because every Korean came to try for the 50k first place prize.
I dont necessarily disagree, which is why i said "almost Always". That said, MLG is definitely the most consistent provider of top tier competition (again outside of GSL)
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
OSL, Proleague, IPL, WCS, and Dreamhack would all like a word.
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
OSL, Proleague, IPL, WCS, and Dreamhack would all like a word.
Dreamhack while it is an awesome event is nowhere near the level of competition of MLG, almost no Koreans attend it.
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
OSL, Proleague, IPL, WCS, and Dreamhack would all like a word.
Dreamhack while it is an awesome event is nowhere near the level of competition of MLG, almost no Koreans attend it.
Dreamhack Summer had 8 koreans in it, and the ro8 consisted of 1 korean and 7 Europeans. Just saying.
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
OSL, Proleague, IPL, WCS, and Dreamhack would all like a word.
Dreamhack while it is an awesome event is nowhere near the level of competition of MLG, almost no Koreans attend it.
Dreamhack Summer had 8 koreans in it, and the ro8 consisted of 1 korean and 7 Europeans. Just saying.
I count six, Dragon and Daisy are not exactly top tier players, they might as well be foreigners. Hero and Taeja teamkilled in the ro16 and Keen barely lost to Stephano.
Anyway that's not really the point, mostly only Koreans on foreigner teams like hero taeja jyp and puma come to dreamhacks while MLG has a lot more Code S level talent at it.
If more Koreans came to Dreamhacks then it could be the most competitive, because top EU + top KR is > top NA + top KR and a few Europeans on rich teams that can afford to send them.
Awww, no ZerO, Reality, Baby, or even Flying. Baffling how Jaehoon managed to get in over Baby, but if it's based on Proleague rankings then that's understandable.
It'll be interesting to see how the non-Korean scene fares against the KeSPA players after seeing them best quite a few eSF players in these recent months. Will it be the beginning of the end, or will we see glimmers of real competition against the elephants?
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
OSL, Proleague, IPL, WCS, and Dreamhack would all like a word.
Dreamhack while it is an awesome event is nowhere near the level of competition of MLG, almost no Koreans attend it.
They also consistently have a terrible format. In terms of production quality and stream quality there's very few tournaments that can keep up though.
On September 14 2012 02:52 butter wrote: Why do we still have invite tournaments in 2012?
So that the best of the best players don't need to play in the open bracket, and because online qualifiers suck, and because fans want to see the best players + the cinderellas. This format offers both.
That said, I'd would like to see more championship bracket/group stage players taken from the open bracket.
Maybe there could be two separate group stages, one before the open bracket people make it up (where the worst finishers would be relegated into a later stage in that open bracket), and one that includes a player base from the open bracket.
On September 14 2012 02:52 eviltomahawk wrote: Awww, no ZerO, Reality, Baby, or even Flying. Baffling how Jaehoon managed to get in over Baby, but if it's based on Proleague rankings then that's understandable.
It'll be interesting to see how the non-Korean scene fares against the KeSPA players after seeing them best quite a few eSF players in these recent months. Will it be the beginning of the end, or will we see glimmers of real competition against the elephants?
On September 14 2012 02:52 butter wrote: Why do we still have invite tournaments in 2012?
So that the best of the best players don't need to play in the open bracket, and because online qualifiers suck, and because fans want to see the best players + the cinderellas. This format offers both.
That said, I'd would like to see more championship bracket/group stage players taken from the open bracket.
Maybe there could be two separate group stages, one before the open bracket people make it up (where the worst finishers would be relegated into a later stage in that open bracket), and one that includes a player base from the open bracket.
There's no pleasing everyone. Have an invite based tournament: "Why do we still have invite tournaments!?!?!"
Have a tournament that is mostly open qualifiers: "omg none of my favourite players are playing this sucks"
It's really not that hard to figure out why these tournaments keep happening.
On September 14 2012 01:22 Cuce wrote: wait all proleague members will be kespa sanctioned?
what if top 4 is non kespa koreans?
It's taken from the current Proleague top 24 Starcraft II rank. next season might be different, but this is the first iteration of the MvP program.
Also, to clarify, KeSPA plays NA/EU/KrT and vice versa. There's no inside a region play until the playoffs. More details on format and such later. We'll also be announcing the NA/EU/KrT players as they finalize. That list is pretty solid too.
For those folks bashing NA players. Come on, show some love.
Agreed, I think there is some really good players,
Scarlet, Idra, TT1, Huk, Vibe, Select, Major, Slush, Illusion.... Plus Catz always makes for entertaining games =P
im looking forward to it.
Plus MLG is an American Tournament for an mostly american Audience, and lets face it, whether you like it or not, tournaments get more exposure when there are local players playing. But its going to depend entirely on the picks, Scarlet is far and away the best NA player, but she hasnt played in any MLG's this season so I'm not sure if would qualify.
On September 14 2012 02:52 butter wrote: Why do we still have invite tournaments in 2012?
I agree. This is such a god dam horrible decision by MLG. Its a huge step backwards for the competitive sc2 scene. You were on the right track you had MLG Arena where the best players would qualify.
I cant stress this enough you will have players now who don't deserve to be there. Is this the sc2 scene we want? If we ever is going to have sc2 as a real sport you have to stop with this nonsense and allow the scene itself to determine who deserve these spots.
But Ok MLG just don't fucking complain when its only the Koreans and Stephano left in top 15. I really hope this will bite MLG in there ass
On September 14 2012 02:52 butter wrote: Why do we still have invite tournaments in 2012?
So that the best of the best players don't need to play in the open bracket, and because online qualifiers suck, and because fans want to see the best players + the cinderellas. This format offers both.
That said, I'd would like to see more championship bracket/group stage players taken from the open bracket.
Maybe there could be two separate group stages, one before the open bracket people make it up (where the worst finishers would be relegated into a later stage in that open bracket), and one that includes a player base from the open bracket.
And that's just not true the best players will not be there however you will have 12 NA players with a lot of fans who bring stream numbers. Competitive sc2 scene my ass. More like fixed sc2 scene
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
how do they get better when they are invited based on popularity? how do they win when you place them against some of the best koreans in the world?
none of what mlg does as a league is compatible with making north american plays aspire to be the best they can be.
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major
It's weird why Scarlett (who has never played an MLG) is invited over someone like Suppy, Axslav, or Binski (all 3 of who have made Championship bracket at MLG). Major is also a strange invite as well...
I mean: they are DEFINITELY the best players, but are they inviting top players, or people with a strong history at MLG?
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
Viewership is definitely affected by the presence of EU and NA players. It is a fact that viewership goes DOWN after the last 'foreigner' (hate that term) is eliminated.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
In any case, for those speculating about the invites, here is the list of players we have formally invited. We did NOT include the Top 8 from Raleigh as they are already in Group Play: Korea/Taiwan DongRaeGu MarineKing Alicia MC Puma Mvp
Europe Naniwa Stephano Sase Sockeh Grubby Ret
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major ***THIS LIST IS INVITED PLAYERS, NOT CONFIRMED PLAYERS***
Also please remember that we still have online qualifiers for group play spots for KR, EU, and NA.
Edit: Top 8 from Raleigh that are already in Dallas Groups: Leenock First Taeja TheSTC Hero Violet Revival, Heart
Really good answer and reasoning. I think its very very important to help the NA scene. And you do that by simply providing more opportunities. The only thing that makes me as a euro fanboi a little bit sad it's that there could be some more euro spots/players. But its hard balance to get. Overall awesome idea and i hope it works out and some NA players make a good showing.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
how do they get better when they are invited based on popularity? how do they win when you place them against some of the best koreans in the world?
none of what mlg does as a league is compatible with making north american plays aspire to be the best they can be.
I agree. The best way for MLG to help the NA scene is to have a weekly or every few days tourny (bigger than Playhem). With MLG's backing it will actually be watched. With IPL and NASL both having a ton of Koreans in their tournaments, MLG is only major organizer left in NA.
That's how you grow the scene, not by putting them against GSL Koreans and watching them get smashed.
On September 14 2012 02:52 butter wrote: Why do we still have invite tournaments in 2012?
I agree. This is such a god dam horrible decision by MLG. Its a huge step backwards for the competitive sc2 scene. You were on the right track you had MLG Arena where the best players would qualify.
I cant stress this enough you will have players now who don't deserve to be there. Is this the sc2 scene we want? If we ever is going to have sc2 as a real sport you have to stop with this nonsense and allow the scene itself to determine who deserve these spots.
But Ok MLG just don't fucking complain when its only the Koreans and Stephano left in top 15. I really hope this will bite MLG in there ass
There would be a higher chance for top 15 being stephano and only koreans if the tournament was not invite only...The main MLG events will be free to enter anyway, so what's wrong with ONE invite tournament, with the invitees chosen based on past results?
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
how do they get better when they are invited based on popularity? how do they win when you place them against some of the best koreans in the world?
none of what mlg does as a league is compatible with making north american plays aspire to be the best they can be.
Note this is not the final version of the MvP program, it is our invitational kickoff to introduce the program. Expect a more robust roll out for 2013.
On September 14 2012 02:52 eviltomahawk wrote: Awww, no ZerO, Reality, Baby, or even Flying. Baffling how Jaehoon managed to get in over Baby, but if it's based on Proleague rankings then that's understandable.
It'll be interesting to see how the non-Korean scene fares against the KeSPA players after seeing them best quite a few eSF players in these recent months. Will it be the beginning of the end, or will we see glimmers of real competition against the elephants?
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
how do they get better when they are invited based on popularity? how do they win when you place them against some of the best koreans in the world?
none of what mlg does as a league is compatible with making north american plays aspire to be the best they can be.
I agree. The best way for MLG to help the NA scene is to have a weekly or every few days tourny (bigger than Playhem). With MLG's backing it will actually be watched. With IPL and NASL both having a ton of Koreans in their tournaments, MLG is only major organizer left in NA.
That's how you grow the scene, not by putting them against GSL Koreans and watching them get smashed.
Exactly MLG wont be growing the NA scene. There is an old saying: Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime
MLG are giving the NA scene a fish. Europe is very good l8tly why? Because back when sc2 first started a lot of these players learned how to fish. While the NA scene was busy doing commercials.
The more I think about this the more absurd it is. Screw it enough of my nerd rage All I got to say whomever came up with this idea must be the same person who made the last MLG format. MLG is making a bloody mockery about the competitive sc2 Esport scene I truly care for.
Its almost ironic that an American company decides to go full socialist. May I suggest MLG that every player get payed the same price winning also just to make it more fair and more in line with the socialistic ideologies. That way you can support the NA scene even more. I'm sure MKP,MC,DRG,Stephano don't mind sharing there price winning with top 64
Seems like a pretty awesome tournament. If there are any from the NA players invited that can't make it then I'd love to see an invite to qxc. He can do well in these global-level tournaments.
On September 14 2012 03:12 Xeris wrote: North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major
It's weird why Scarlett (who has never played an MLG) is invited over someone like Suppy, Axslav, or Binski (all 3 of who have made Championship bracket at MLG). Major is also a strange invite as well...
I mean: they are DEFINITELY the best players, but are they inviting top players, or people with a strong history at MLG?
Yea, you're right, it seems like they have a strange policy. They invited sasquatch, who was lucky to beat IdrA after being the half-assed pick when there were no kespa players and all of a sudden hes a god, and yet they didn't invite a well known player such as qxc.
Scarlett is quite the opposite of Sasquatch, whereas she is very good and has never played an MLG, yet Sasquatch is not very good, but has competed in MLG. I think it's quite possible that they want her to represent Canada alongside HuK. I think Major's invite is the same, he is representing the southern american scene.
On September 14 2012 03:12 Xeris wrote: North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major
It's weird why Scarlett (who has never played an MLG) is invited over someone like Suppy, Axslav, or Binski (all 3 of who have made Championship bracket at MLG). Major is also a strange invite as well...
I mean: they are DEFINITELY the best players, but are they inviting top players, or people with a strong history at MLG?
Not sure why you'd think that. Scarlett has been stomping most everyone else on that list.
On September 14 2012 03:29 Whitley wrote: ON TOPIC This is great all the popular players that will surely give us entertaining games. Good job MLG, this will be a lot of fun to watch.
OFF TOPIC Stop complaining about everything possible.
This is the worst thing that has happen to the competitive sc2 scene since well forever.
I have no idea why so many people cry about the 12 NA players ... not only for business reasons like flights, getting all the visas, having many players that speak the hosting nation's language perfectly, easily re-inviteable (if that word exists) next time due to low cost and high reward from the audience, maybe even increased personal interaction from MLG and the players due to "local" venues and so forth. I even prefer a NA based company to promote NA players and try to make them sustainable without traveling around the globe. The ESL is doing something similar (in my mind) and I like it.
If we were to take it to the extreme (This are MY reasons, might not be what MLG has in mind at all) maybe one day we can watch NA and European tournaments that in themselves field a diversity in skill, talent, personality that we get through an international scene now. I would love that. And how do we do that ? By growing "our" (MLG->NA/US) scene and motivating them to go pro or at least competitive.
As much as i like the idea i'm just not too excited about the roster. Yes, i LOVE to see up & coming players, if from EU or US (or KR for that matter) i don't care at all, but this is just... :X
Nonetheless, should be quite a great watch, still very happy with my gold subscription <3
So 48 invited players (24x KeSPA, 12x NA, 6x EU, 6x KR/TW) will compete (online? on NA server?) for $10,000 and in the end no matter where anyone finished 8 seeds to the Fall Championship are given to the top 4 KeSPA, top 2 NA, top 1 EU, and top 1 KR/TW players even if they got eliminated in the first few rounds?
On September 14 2012 03:49 Proseat wrote: So 48 invited players (24x KeSPA, 12x NA, 6x EU, 6x KR/TW) will compete (online? on NA server?) for $10,000 and in the end no matter where anyone finished 8 seeds to the Fall Championship are given to the top 4 KeSPA, top 2 NA, top 1 EU, and top 1 KR/TW players even if they got eliminated in the first few rounds?
On September 14 2012 02:52 butter wrote: Why do we still have invite tournaments in 2012?
I like this comment the most.
I like that comment juxtaposed with the hundreds of comments I read about TSL4 and how it had low(er) viewership due to the players that qualified and how there just weren't many that the 'casual' fans could be excited about.
It makes sense for MLG to retain some invite-only tournaments.
Thanks for all of the comments, complaints, suggestions, misc. praise, etc. We do read everything, I know I do at least. I can say with 100% certainty that I'm excited to be working full time on all of these broadcasts with MLG's first ever full time in house commentary team: Axlav and Axeltoss. We have never had full time talent and we're pretty stoked in the office to have these guys on our team
On September 14 2012 03:29 Whitley wrote: ON TOPIC This is great all the popular players that will surely give us entertaining games. Good job MLG, this will be a lot of fun to watch.
OFF TOPIC Stop complaining about everything possible.
Pretty much this. You'd think MLG walked into people's houses and kicked their dogs. An NA tournament giving spots to NA players; this isn't exactly a terrible thing.
On September 14 2012 04:02 MLG_Adam wrote: Thanks for all of the comments, complaints, suggestions, misc. praise, etc. We do read everything, I know I do at least. I can say with 100% certainty that I'm excited to be working full time on all of these broadcasts with MLG's first ever full time in house commentary team: Axlav and Axeltoss. We have never had full time talent and we're pretty stoked in the office to have these guys on our team
Oh yeah, forget this part: Getting tons of questions twitter about Axlav. Although Nick will no longer be competing at MLG events, his full time employment will not prevent him from competing at other events or continuing his current streaming/lessons, in fact we encourage it. We want him to be one of the best Analytical casters out there and that is only possible through playing and tournament competition.
I hope viOLet will count as an NA player. =D And hopefully Scarlett participates, otherwise NA will have no champion (as in a leader, not someone to actually be the champion of this tournament, though I would love to see that be viOLet). Would be nice if Idra competes in this just to see him back up against Kespa players, though I'm not sure how well he will actually do.
Also hoping the GSL players that compete are big names that will make it so this isn't just Kespa smashing everyone else. Hoping for atleast 1 of Squirtle/Seed/Creator/Parting. =D
Cool event though, I imagine it will draw a lot of viewers. Hopefully Tastosis will be casting atleast some of this, since if you want the best tournament you certainly need the best casters. ^_^ Axslav is a great caster though and I can't wait to be able to hear more from him.
On September 14 2012 04:10 Hall0wed wrote: I hope viOLet will count as an NA player. =D And hopefully Scarlett participates, otherwise NA will have no champion (as in a leader, not someone to actually be the champion of this tournament, though I would love to see that be viOLet). Would be nice if Idra competes in this just to see him back up against Kespa players, though I'm not sure how well he will actually do.
Also hoping the GSL players that compete are big names that will make it so this isn't just Kespa smashing everyone else. Hoping for atleast 1 of Squirtle/Seed/Creator/Parting. =D
Cool event though, I imagine it will draw a lot of viewers. Hopefully Tastosis will be casting atleast some of this, since if you want the best tournament you certainly need the best casters. ^_^
Violet not participating due to being in groups already from his Raleigh top 8.
Ah I see, well that is good for him but unfortunate for the rest of NA. Hope Scarlett is pressured into competing if available.
On September 14 2012 04:10 Hall0wed wrote: I hope viOLet will count as an NA player. =D And hopefully Scarlett participates, otherwise NA will have no champion (as in a leader, not someone to actually be the champion of this tournament, though I would love to see that be viOLet). Would be nice if Idra competes in this just to see him back up against Kespa players, though I'm not sure how well he will actually do.
Also hoping the GSL players that compete are big names that will make it so this isn't just Kespa smashing everyone else. Hoping for atleast 1 of Squirtle/Seed/Creator/Parting. =D
Cool event though, I imagine it will draw a lot of viewers. Hopefully Tastosis will be casting atleast some of this, since if you want the best tournament you certainly need the best casters. ^_^
Violet not participating due to being in groups already from his Raleigh top 8.
On September 14 2012 04:08 Bonkarooni wrote: So this means that there is no fall Arena this season, and that the online qualifiers will seed straight into the open bracket at MLG?
As everyone prepares to make Dallas the most insane event ever and we bring you new broadcast programming, we will no longer be holding the previously announced Arena activities.
The top players from each region of the Invite-Only Qualifiers will win all-expenses paid trips to the Fall Championship in Dallas on November 2-4, where they’ll start in Group Play.
And I assume that Axeltoss will still be able to cast ROOT events, provided of course that it doesn't interfere with anything he's doing with MLG? Happy for them both.
On September 14 2012 04:11 Megiddosc wrote: And I assume that Axeltoss will still be able to cast ROOT events, provided of course that it doesn't interfere with anything he's doing with MLG? Happy for them both.
Correct.They both need to prioritize their MLG work schedules, but we have no issue with them doing work outside of MLG.
On September 14 2012 04:13 Mackus wrote: Axslav's and Axeltoss' employment is just contracted work and they're free to do anything when a MLG isnt happening - Take Bitterdam and NASL.
Kind of sort of. They are employees, just as Bitterdam are for NASL (they are not contractors)
On September 14 2012 04:13 Mackus wrote: Axslav's and Axeltoss' employment is just contracted work and they're free to do anything when a MLG isnt happening - Take Bitterdam and NASL.
Kind of sort of. They are employees, just as Bitterdam are for NASL (they are not contractors)
Maybe too soon to ask but any plans to re-introduce Pool Play this time round? It was my favourite part of any MLG.
On September 14 2012 01:51 Resilient wrote: MLG is an American company, with American sponsors(at least the DIVISION responsible for that region before you bring up things like benQ/Xperia etc). It should seem obvious that this is their key demographic. 12 NA players is bullshit if you look at it purely from a SC2 perspective, there would be like a handful invites max. But that's not good for business at all.
As long as the 12 invites are used properly, i.e. inviting up-and-comers and people who stand a realistic chance, then it should be great. I just hope they don't invite "personalities" who will crash and burn instantly all for the sake of a cheap pop. That is not sustainable at all.
But I don't think NA fans are all that into NA players. You got your Idra, Huk, may be Sheth, but then it drops off really quickly. Of course there's the Incontrols, Destinys, and Nonys of the world, but they're nowhere near competitive enough to warrant an invite.
I am sure MLG has more detail numbers on viewers on stream when certain matches are being played. Not sure how you can just make the statement NA fans aren't that into NA players with any numbers to support you.
Viewership is definitely affected by the presence of EU and NA players. It is a fact that viewership goes DOWN after the last 'foreigner' (hate that term) is eliminated.
As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority. North American players winning, gaining confidence, getting better, etc. is great for the scene as a whole. We need there to be aspiration to be the best in North America, and that should not REQUIRE you moving to Seoul to prove it/make a living (at least in our opinion).
In any case, for those speculating about the invites, here is the list of players we have formally invited. We did NOT include the Top 8 from Raleigh as they are already in Group Play: Korea/Taiwan DongRaeGu MarineKing Alicia MC Puma Mvp
Europe Naniwa Stephano Sase Sockeh Grubby Ret
North America Huk Idra Select Sheth Sasquatch Illusion KawaiiRice Hawk Caliber Scarlett Vibe Major ***THIS LIST IS INVITED PLAYERS, NOT CONFIRMED PLAYERS***
Also please remember that we still have online qualifiers for group play spots for KR, EU, and NA.
Edit: Top 8 from Raleigh that are already in Dallas Groups: Leenock First Taeja TheSTC Hero Violet Revival, Heart
I find it very cool to see an event executive tell us the list of players he has invited even if they haven't accepted yet. You always see locked up communication, and that's refreshing to see another approach. Besides that, great list!
Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
On September 14 2012 04:25 Raid wrote: Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
Guessing this is sarcasm, but pretty much all tournaments do this. Hell, Dreamhack usually only has 1 or 2 NA players and maybe 5-6 Koreans. MLG is one of the best tournaments in terms of diversity.
So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa.
I think having the top 8 of Raleigh (who are all non-KeSPA Korean players) being seeded into group play for Dallas helps balance it. In the end, only 4 KeSPA players will advance to group play from this tournament after all.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
They have a partnership, so of course they give more to their partner (like you give more to your wife).
On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote: No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
And I assume that nobody takes the GSL seriously as a sports-like competition either since they offer seeds for foreigners? 10 out of 21 slots at the Code A qualifiers were taken by KeSPA players. There are obviously some of them that can already play at an extremely high level.
On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote: No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
And I assume that nobody takes the GSL seriously as a sports-like competition either since they offer seeds for foreigners? 10 out of 21 slots at the Code A qualifiers were taken by KeSPA players. There are obviously some of them that can already play at an extremely high level.
Exactly. They also seed subjectively. Everyone does it differently and there are merits and pitfalls with any direction you head in. I am very comfortable with exactly what we have set out to do and think it is very fair. Thanks for the feedback.
After some consideration, I'm somewhat more positive about this event. It is the first one in (hopefully) a long line of events, after all, it wasn't going to be perfect the first time around.
Still, the lack of Suppy is weird. He could still be in, but he should have been invited right away.
On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote: No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
And I assume that nobody takes the GSL seriously as a sports-like competition either since they offer seeds for foreigners? 10 out of 21 slots at the Code A qualifiers were taken by KeSPA players. There are obviously some of them that can already play at an extremely high level.
You haven't noticed the constant complaints about the seeds? And they at least changed them so that Koreans could get them too, and they're based on results at foreign tournaments. It's still not ideal, in that they don't set out clear criteria beforehand, but it's at least based on playing success.
I'm not saying Kespa players shouldn't be in the league. I'm sure if you just held general Korean qualifiers, lots of Kespa players would qualify. But it clearly wouldn't be 80% Kespa yet. And even if it would be, it doesn't matter. Who gets to be in the tournament should be a result of a competition based on the skill of the players in starcraft, not the skill of their employers in business negotiations.
On September 14 2012 04:57 aristarchus wrote: No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
And I assume that nobody takes the GSL seriously as a sports-like competition either since they offer seeds for foreigners? 10 out of 21 slots at the Code A qualifiers were taken by KeSPA players. There are obviously some of them that can already play at an extremely high level.
You haven't noticed the constant complaints about the seeds? And they at least changed them so that Koreans could get them too, and they're based on results at foreign tournaments. It's still not ideal, in that they don't set out clear criteria beforehand, but it's at least based on playing success.
I'm not saying Kespa players shouldn't be in the league. I'm sure if you just held general Korean qualifiers, lots of Kespa players would qualify. But it clearly wouldn't be 80% Kespa yet. And even if it would be, it doesn't matter. Who gets to be in the tournament should be a result of a competition based on the skill of the players in starcraft, not the skill of their employers in business negotiations.
This is a one off thing they're trying out, called MLG vs PROLEAGUE. You complaining about a ton of Kespa players would be like me complaining there's a shitload of Europeans at a Dreamhack.
Doesn't really affect their main events besides 4 guaranteed Kespa seeds (down from the 8 I think everyone was expecting from Raleigh).
On September 14 2012 02:06 MLG_Adam wrote: As a company we will definitely be focusing more and more on North America, not exclusively but this region will be a priority.
Thats fine, but then stop telling that MLG's goal is to provide the highest level competitive gaming in the world
Why? We have multiple avenues for global participation at our events. You're sensationalizing things as usual.
I wouldnt bother justifying it Adam, there will be whiners regardless of who you invite.
MLG tournaments are almost always the most competitive tournaments outside of GSL. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. GIven the top 8 at raleigh, its more like 12 NA 6 Euro 14 Koreans.
Realistically virtually everyone on that list of Koreans are a top tier competitors.
OSL, Proleague, IPL, WCS, and Dreamhack would all like a word.
uhh OSL and proleague werent even the same game until recently. IPL had 1 really tough event. WCS is only super high level in Korea (and this is the first iteration?), and Dreamhack is nowhere near as competitive... very few koreans attend, and the ones that do arent the DRG/MKP/MVP's of the world. Soo what was your point?
On September 14 2012 03:29 Whitley wrote: ON TOPIC This is great all the popular players that will surely give us entertaining games. Good job MLG, this will be a lot of fun to watch.
OFF TOPIC Stop complaining about everything possible.
This is the worst thing that has happen to the competitive sc2 scene since well forever.
This?
Not the PPSL debacle? Not the super tournament seeds all turning their offers down? Not SC2 Confederation (or whatever the organization was before ESF) pulling out of NASL2?
Inviting more North Americans in this particular MLG is the worst thing that has happened to the competitive sc2 scene?
Love this MLG! <3 To be fair I would like to see even qualified players being able to compete. Even if they wont get a spot they could get the money or something added if they win.
On September 14 2012 03:29 Whitley wrote: ON TOPIC This is great all the popular players that will surely give us entertaining games. Good job MLG, this will be a lot of fun to watch.
OFF TOPIC Stop complaining about everything possible.
This is the worst thing that has happen to the competitive sc2 scene since well forever.
This?
Not the PPSL debacle? Not the super tournament seeds all turning their offers down? Not SC2 Confederation (or whatever the organization was before ESF) pulling out of NASL2?
Inviting more North Americans in this particular MLG is the worst thing that has happened to the competitive sc2 scene?
Nothing to do who got invited its about going from a competitive sc2 format where the best players will qualify and will deserve there spots to some kind of socialistic format where some players will take a pool spot even if they placed much lower then the other players.
Its a joke. Lets talk about a scenario. Stephano and DRG gets 3nd place and 4rd place in this tournament. Now this is an incredible good placement and should be rewarded however since MKP won the tournament and Naniwa took 2nd. Stephano and DRG will not be able to qualify to pool play. Instead 2 top 20-25 will get there spots.
If this isn't fucked up I don't know what is. And MLG Adam you wrong its a disgrace to any competitive sport. Invites and unfair seeding based on country and popularity got no place in any professional sport. Lets just call MLG what it is: Entertainment . Because now its surdenly not a competition or a sport. Thanks for making a mockery out of the sc2 scene MLG
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
He was comparing KeSPA players to the Yankees FYI.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Exactly, if people wanted a "pure" competition, we would see almost no Koreans at all. What Korean player is going to spend several grand just to hack their way through the open bracket of MLG while suffering form jetlag?
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
I agree it shouldn't be part of the championship tour, but it's still great .
On September 14 2012 06:44 taLbuk wrote: Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
On September 14 2012 06:44 taLbuk wrote: Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
pretty lame
Definitely never at IPL. However, Dreamhack is a possibility since they are on somewhat good terms with MLG.
On September 14 2012 06:44 taLbuk wrote: Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
pretty lame
As explained at the time, it means they are exclusive to MLG, but MLG can of course choose to release them from that whenever it wants. Sundance mentioned possibly working with Dreamhack, but you can bet you won't ever see them at any tournament that MLG considers a competitor, meaning definitely not any NA events, and probably not any tournaments that include NA events (like IEM).
Basically, when Kespa tried to bully around the Korean scene, there was a collective boycott by the rest of the scene, a big fight, and Kespa backed down. When they tried to bully the foreign scene (though not nearly as much, at least at first) no one seemed to care.
Would be cool to see Jaedong and Stephano in the same group. JD has said he studies Stephano's play and I recall Smix saying that JD asked for Stephano's authograph at MLG.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
Think of this as a hype thread, and MLG is just promoting themselves. Who the fuck is gonna start off by saying "well because we invited some people, this event is actually meaningless as a measure of skill, but enjoy the games!"
The only way that would be unbiased based on your qualifications would have completely open qualifiers (not even divided on region) and then you'd end up with 25+ of 32 players being Korean. If you want unbiased, then you should have a huge problem on their partitioning of qualifiers as well.
One of the big strength's of TL right after release was option to practice in Korea and the biggest draw of EG is money. Not every team or organization is created equal. If those teams can secure good deals then props to them (though threatening to boycott events is taking it a big far).
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
On September 14 2012 06:44 taLbuk wrote: Does the Kespa-MLG partnership mean they are exlusive to MLG? will we never see Kespa players in Dreamhack IPL etc as long as the partnership exists?
pretty lame
whatever it could be, it'll have to work around proleague.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
Think of this as a hype thread, and MLG is just promoting themselves. Who the fuck is gonna start off by saying "well because we invited some people, this event is actually meaningless as a measure of skill, but enjoy the games!"
The only way that would be unbiased based on your qualifications would have completely open qualifiers (not even divided on region) and then you'd end up with 25+ of 32 players being Korean. If you want unbiased, then you should have a huge problem on their partitioning of qualifiers as well.
One of the big strength's of TL right after release was option to practice in Korea and the biggest draw of EG is money. Not every team or organization is created equal. If those teams can secure good deals then props to them (though threatening to boycott events is taking it a big far).
Its not a hype thread its an assault on the GSL teams and the spirit of the competitive sc2 scene.
On September 14 2012 04:35 aristarchus wrote: So I'm not surprised at all, but it's really disappointing to see the favorable treatment being given to Kespa players. 24 spots for Kespa, 6 for the rest of Korea? That's just a guarantee that no matter what the actual balance of skill is, 80% of the Koreans will be Kespa. There is absolutely no fairness-based justification for that. It's just Kespa throwing its weight around and MLG deciding to do whatever gets it the most viewers/money. That's how you run a reality TV show, not a legitimate sport.
I really think the community needs to start seeing starcraft as more of a sport. There's room for debate about some format details (separating qualifiers by region, for example), but no tournament that gives players advantages in the competition because of their fame or money or what company they work for should be seen as a "major" by the community.
Why are we really upset when Kespa boycotts GSL, but not upset at all when they push the other Koreans out of MLG? Are we really dumb enough that only pushing them 80% of the way out fools us?
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
Think of this as a hype thread, and MLG is just promoting themselves. Who the fuck is gonna start off by saying "well because we invited some people, this event is actually meaningless as a measure of skill, but enjoy the games!"
The only way that would be unbiased based on your qualifications would have completely open qualifiers (not even divided on region) and then you'd end up with 25+ of 32 players being Korean. If you want unbiased, then you should have a huge problem on their partitioning of qualifiers as well.
One of the big strength's of TL right after release was option to practice in Korea and the biggest draw of EG is money. Not every team or organization is created equal. If those teams can secure good deals then props to them (though threatening to boycott events is taking it a big far).
Its not a hype thread its an assault on the GSL teams and the spirit of the competitive sc2 scene.
30 Koreans in a 48 player tournament. And you guys are complaining about NA having too many players. lol I know what you guys are saying its just kinda funny.
On September 14 2012 04:41 Morieris wrote: [quote]
You do know MLG is partnered with Kespa, right? And that the event is called MLG vs Proleague. You also do realize this is a special event before the Fall Championship, which will once again be open to anyone who would like to play in it. MLG isn't pushing out non-Kespa players at all. They are putting this event on in an attempt to give people what they want to see, Kespa players in a legitimate tournament that involves non-Kespa players. They are pushing NA players with more spots most likely because it's an NA-based company, and it gives the NA players a chance to step up and legitimize themselves.
There are 8 Koreans in Dallas group play already from Raleigh results, there will be more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the KR only online qualifier, and even more non Kespa Koreans added into group play from the MvP program.
So in fact, there are more Esports Federation players in group play with fullly paid trips than any other group/region of players.
Sure, but those are based on the old results before the new system. If this continues, that percentage would obviously shift substantially over time. It's unfair to give one group of players an advantage in a competition. I don't care if there are three times as many ESF as Kespa players - if that happened in a system that was biased towards Kespa players, it means that the ESF player group as a whole deserves even more spots than that.
No one is going to take MLG seriously as a sports-like competition if you don't take yourselves seriously first. Imagine if MLB gave the Yankees a 10 game handicap during the regular season because the owner of the Yankees refused to play under any other conditions. That's the same thing that's happening here, and the fact that the reaction against it isn't stronger is very good evidence that esports isn't a true sport yet.
Please don't compare ESF players to the Yankees they don't have the money or the talent.
Yes, this system will eventually bias the direction towards KESPA players and even now it does. So, what? Eventually KESPA will buy the talent off of the current ESF teams, so in the end the best players will be playing most regularly in MLG.
I wasn't comparing ESF players to the Yankees - I was comparing Kespa to the Yankees. Read it again. If Kespa teams are better at business and get more sponsorship and so buy the best players form ESF teams by offering them better contracts and win out, then great. If they're able to make it so those players can't even get into most tournaments unless they join Kespa and then use their monopoly power to make those players accept worse salaries than they deserve, not so great.
Teams are supposed to compete. They are supposed to compete through getting sponsorships and scouting better and ending up with better players. They are not supposed to compete by forming cartels with other teams and locking their competition out of tournaments.
Tournaments are supposed to compete too. They're supposed to compete by having better casters and better prize pools and attracting more players and viewers. They are not supposed to compete by paying off teams to not compete at any other tournament by giving them preferential treatment at theirs.
Did you have a problem with MLG/GOM partnership last year? Or did you think having tons of Koreans who couldn't afford to fly over themselves raised the level of competition? Because that is basically where this all started.
Yes, I did - at least with parts of it. I have a problem with anything that has invites and claims to be a major, important tournament. (I'd have less problem with this event if it was unrelated to seeding and the next MLG event, but it's part of the tour, so it makes the whole thing biased.) I have no problem with MLG saying they'll pay travel costs for a certain number of players or something like that, as long as who it is is determined through qualifiers (or past performance in unbiased events, etc.).
I don't have any problem with GSL saying "we're going to use MLG as another qualifier and give the winner code S status" because that's objective (as long as MLG is an unbiased tournament). I similarly have no problem with MLG giving group seeds to players based on GSL results - my problem was that they picked random popular players rather than, say, those with the most GSL points.
The problem with this is that they aren't just using some Korean tournament for seeding. It's that it's a tournament that isn't open to everyone. They're clearly making it so that to compete at a high level in starcraft, it *really* helps to be on a Kespa team. That is, of course, exactly what Kespa wants, because then it gets the top talent without having to pay top money for it right now, and in the long term they get a monopoly and can pay even less, plus demand lots of the tournament revenue.
Imagine TL, EG, Complexity, and Mouz got together and told MLG none of them would send their players unless 4 players from each of those 4 teams got byes to the top 16. What would the reaction be? Would it be any better if MLG "partnered" with those 4 teams first? The community would go absolutely bonkers, as it should. Nothing different here.
Think of this as a hype thread, and MLG is just promoting themselves. Who the fuck is gonna start off by saying "well because we invited some people, this event is actually meaningless as a measure of skill, but enjoy the games!"
The only way that would be unbiased based on your qualifications would have completely open qualifiers (not even divided on region) and then you'd end up with 25+ of 32 players being Korean. If you want unbiased, then you should have a huge problem on their partitioning of qualifiers as well.
One of the big strength's of TL right after release was option to practice in Korea and the biggest draw of EG is money. Not every team or organization is created equal. If those teams can secure good deals then props to them (though threatening to boycott events is taking it a big far).
Its not a hype thread its an assault on the GSL teams and the spirit of the competitive sc2 scene.
How so?
Go back some pages. Aristarchus and I have actually explained why this is a disgrace. I cant believe fans of a fair competition in sports is not outraged by this. It blow my mind
People complain about so many koreans in foreign tournaments. A tournament invites not as much koreans and invites more non korean players(18-6 is a pretty good ratio). People still whine.
That´s weird.
Maybe the people who complain now aren´t the same people who usually whine about the amount of koreans or the TL forum users simply change their opinions very fast.
A tournament set up entirely so that KeSPA players can look good smashing a bunch of NA/Euro pros and have close games with a handful of Koreans? If there aren't 7 KeSPA pros in the top 8 with a lineup like this, it would be an upset.
Oh MLG, is this really how far you've fallen? Hype tournaments are fine, but you're really creating a tournament that favours a group this heavily? Player-exclusivity contracts with tournaments just might be the worst thing to happen to SC2 so far.
Seriously, the best we can hope for is 24 KeSPA players against ~10 or so other pros on a similar level, and even that is probably stretching it.
And 4 KeSPA spots compared to 1 for KR/TW? Look at the funding behind those 2 groups, and tell me that is remotely fair. Capitalism before competition I guess.
On September 14 2012 07:50 Wayne123 wrote: People complain about so many koreans in foreign tournaments. A tournament invites not as much koreans and invites more non korean players(18-6 is a pretty good ratio). People still whine.
That´s weird.
Maybe the people who complain now aren´t the same people who usually whine about the amount of koreans or the TL forum users simply change their opinions very fast.
I think people just like complaining about everything. It is so easy to fall into that trap.
On September 14 2012 07:50 Wayne123 wrote: People complain about so many koreans in foreign tournaments. A tournament invites not as much koreans and invites more non korean players(18-6 is a pretty good ratio). People still whine.
That´s weird.
Maybe the people who complain now aren´t the same people who usually whine about the amount of koreans or the TL forum users simply change their opinions very fast.
Easily explained. The older generation that grew up where only the best got trophies and deserved praise want the best players to play.
The younger powderpuff generation that grew up where everyone gets a participation trophy and praised for "trying their best" want to see more diversity because its "fair".
Hopefully it turns out great, but just 6 korean players not from Kespa seems a little low. Many of the fans not from bw will not be very interested in a storyline of top 5/6 kespa players, unless you have JD or something make it that far.
Jesus Christ ppl still whine about whether the players are Korean or not. I mean really? Who fucking cares? We just wanna watch the best games, not what they do outside of gaming. Sad, really.
On September 14 2012 07:52 Jehct wrote: A tournament set up entirely so that KeSPA players can look good smashing a bunch of NA/Euro pros and have close games with a handful of Koreans? If there aren't 7 KeSPA pros in the top 8 with a lineup like this, it would be an upest.
So if less than two out of the following group are not in the top 8:
DongRaeGu MarineKing Alicia MC Puma Mvp
It would not be considered an upset? Do you not realize how foolish your statement makes you look?
On September 14 2012 04:25 Raid wrote: Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
Guessing this is sarcasm, but pretty much all tournaments do this. Hell, Dreamhack usually only has 1 or 2 NA players and maybe 5-6 Koreans. MLG is one of the best tournaments in terms of diversity.
Well no, Dreamhack doesn't do this cause Dreamhack doesn't give spots. Pretty big difference
I'm sooo watching it . I'm really loving all the new "content" the BW players are bringing to the scene, it's like when you discover a new flavor and get addicted to it n.n
On September 14 2012 04:25 Raid wrote: Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
Guessing this is sarcasm, but pretty much all tournaments do this. Hell, Dreamhack usually only has 1 or 2 NA players and maybe 5-6 Koreans. MLG is one of the best tournaments in terms of diversity.
Well no, Dreamhack doesn't do this cause Dreamhack doesn't give spots. Pretty big difference
So the Dreamhack Valencia Invitational is just called an invitational for fun?
On September 14 2012 04:25 Raid wrote: Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
Guessing this is sarcasm, but pretty much all tournaments do this. Hell, Dreamhack usually only has 1 or 2 NA players and maybe 5-6 Koreans. MLG is one of the best tournaments in terms of diversity.
Well no, Dreamhack doesn't do this cause Dreamhack doesn't give spots. Pretty big difference
So the Dreamhack Valencia Invitational is just called an invitational for fun?
Are you kidding me?
That's the point. The Dreamhack Invitationals are... Invitationals. The larger, more important Dreamhack tournaments are not Invitationals.
On September 14 2012 04:25 Raid wrote: Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
Guessing this is sarcasm, but pretty much all tournaments do this. Hell, Dreamhack usually only has 1 or 2 NA players and maybe 5-6 Koreans. MLG is one of the best tournaments in terms of diversity.
Well no, Dreamhack doesn't do this cause Dreamhack doesn't give spots. Pretty big difference
So the Dreamhack Valencia Invitational is just called an invitational for fun?
Are you kidding me?
That's the point. The Dreamhack Invitationals are... Invitationals. The larger, more important Dreamhack tournaments are not Invitationals.
and MLG has plenty of opportunities for players to qualify and a huge open bracket....
On September 14 2012 04:25 Raid wrote: Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
Guessing this is sarcasm, but pretty much all tournaments do this. Hell, Dreamhack usually only has 1 or 2 NA players and maybe 5-6 Koreans. MLG is one of the best tournaments in terms of diversity.
Well no, Dreamhack doesn't do this cause Dreamhack doesn't give spots. Pretty big difference
So the Dreamhack Valencia Invitational is just called an invitational for fun?
Are you kidding me?
That's the point. The Dreamhack Invitationals are... Invitationals. The larger, more important Dreamhack tournaments are not Invitationals.
And does not the winner of the invitational then get seeded into the much larger Dreamhack Winter/Summer? TheSir said that they don't give spots, when they obviously do.
On September 14 2012 06:55 Megiddosc wrote: I'd definitely think a match between Stephano and Flash would be interesting.
Stephano would destroy him. The best Kespa players right now are not the famous Kespa players.
doubtful, Flash is in korea and at the pinnacle of the metagame, plus flash is looking beastly. Stephano's practice regime and partners are probably nothing compared to Flash's.
On September 14 2012 02:52 eviltomahawk wrote: Awww, no ZerO, Reality, Baby, or even Flying. Baffling how Jaehoon managed to get in over Baby, but if it's based on Proleague rankings then that's understandable.
It'll be interesting to see how the non-Korean scene fares against the KeSPA players after seeing them best quite a few eSF players in these recent months. Will it be the beginning of the end, or will we see glimmers of real competition against the elephants?
i saw it was decided by the player's team rank after few mins study.
CJ,8th,khan send out their best 3 and STX‘s best 4 players like action and bisu may be special case...
Slightly disipointed in the amount of Europeans allowed, though i understand it's mainly a NA/Korean thing. Still it looks good, mainly for the amount of Kespa players in it.
I'm confused. Larger demand for online content? "LANs" get me 10x more excited to watch SC2 than ANY online tournament in existence.
On September 14 2012 09:56 Lysanias wrote: Slightly disipointed in the amount of Europeans allowed, though i understand it's mainly a NA/Korean thing. Still it looks good, mainly for the amount of Kespa players in it.
Costs probably became a factor as well. Koreans might be a necessity, but EU players not as much, as long as there are some. While undoubtedly better than their NA peers, people care more about foreigner vs Korea games than specific NA vs Korea or EU vs Korea, etc. At least that's the impression I get. NA players would be most likely 1/4 of the cost.
On September 14 2012 09:58 FabledIntegral wrote: I'm confused. Larger demand for online content? "LANs" get me 10x more excited to watch SC2 than ANY online tournament in existence.
Sk Telecom rain should have this EZPZ. He is by far the most accomplished Elephant who had made the switch with the worlds first Kespa player to advance to RO16 code s with victories over last seasons GSL quarterfinalist, Byun. Also currently in the RO8 for Osl with victories over DRG, marineking and jangbi. And before all this he even performed really well in wcs Korea taking down players like Leenock, Jaedong and Curious, only to get knocked out by the eventual champion (Creator).
His only competition would be DRG who unfortunately is Zerg and rain pwns zergs and MVP who isn't playing up to his usual top standard. Roro would also be tough but like DRG, also suffers from being Zerg against a PvZ specialist. Predicting MVP vs Sk telecom rain final, with rain being our Mlg champion.
On September 14 2012 07:52 Jehct wrote: A tournament set up entirely so that KeSPA players can look good smashing a bunch of NA/Euro pros and have close games with a handful of Koreans? If there aren't 7 KeSPA pros in the top 8 with a lineup like this, it would be an upest.
So if less than two out of the following group are not in the top 8:
It would not be considered an upset? Do you not realize how foolish your statement makes you look?
EDIT: Forgot my negation, sigh.
Have you been watching the KeSPA/SC2KR clashes? The KeSPA players still have gaping holes in their play (as can only be expected), but they're really fucking good mechanically, they're smart and they can prepare for matches like no one else.
Most of the players you mentioned are preparing for Code S/A matches & the OSL; expecting them to take an online tournament anywhere near as seriously is insane. So yeah, more than one of them making the top 8 of a 48 player tournament in which half are KeSPA players with no proleague to prepare for, and only a few are in the OSL/GSL Code A, would be a massive fucking surprise.
If it's single elim I'd bet money on it, actually. KeSPA preparation is second to none.
On September 14 2012 10:05 Incomplet wrote: Sk Telecom rain should have this EZPZ. He is by far the most accomplished Elephant who had made the switch with the worlds first Kespa player to advance to RO16 code s with victories over last seasons GSL quarterfinalist, Byun. Also currently in the RO8 for Osl with victories over DRG, marineking and jangbi. And before all this he even performed really well in wcs Korea taking down players like Leenock, Jaedong and Curious, only to get knocked out by the eventual champion (Creator).
His only competition would be DRG who unfortunately is Zerg and rain pwns zergs and MVP who isn't playing up to his usual top standard. Roro would also be tough but like DRG, also suffers from being Zerg against a PvZ specialist. Predicting MVP vs Sk telecom rain final, with rain being our Mlg champion.
Sounds fantastic from a viewpoint if he's able to prepare and do 1 set in a booth. At MLG that's not really going to happen, players like DRG will have a big edge there, they have done this before.
On September 14 2012 10:05 Incomplet wrote: Sk Telecom rain should have this EZPZ. He is by far the most accomplished Elephant who had made the switch with the worlds first Kespa player to advance to RO16 code s with victories over last seasons GSL quarterfinalist, Byun. Also currently in the RO8 for Osl with victories over DRG, marineking and jangbi. And before all this he even performed really well in wcs Korea taking down players like Leenock, Jaedong and Curious, only to get knocked out by the eventual champion (Creator).
His only competition would be DRG who unfortunately is Zerg and rain pwns zergs and MVP who isn't playing up to his usual top standard. Roro would also be tough but like DRG, also suffers from being Zerg against a PvZ specialist. Predicting MVP vs Sk telecom rain final, with rain being our Mlg champion.
Sounds fantastic from a viewpoint if he's able to prepare and do 1 set in a booth. At MLG that's not really going to happen, players like DRG will have a big edge there, they have done this before.
People need to read more carefully; this is an online tournament, with time to prepare before each match like the continental qualifier ones MLG have run before. KeSPA players will be in their element.
will there be korean casts??? perhaps share the games with ongamenet(proleague)????? since i'm sure proleague fans would want to watch it too in korea and i'd like to piggyback on that stream/vod/broadcast
On September 14 2012 06:55 Megiddosc wrote: I'd definitely think a match between Stephano and Flash would be interesting.
Stephano would destroy him. The best Kespa players right now are not the famous Kespa players.
Maybe 2 months ago? At this point I'd give the edge to Flash, pretty comfortably. If you've been following the Korean scene lately you'd see that the A-teamers are quickly surpassing everyone around them, both IEF and KESPA players. The fact that they have surpassed the top foreigners is a given at this point.
On September 14 2012 02:52 eviltomahawk wrote: Awww, no ZerO, Reality, Baby, or even Flying. Baffling how Jaehoon managed to get in over Baby, but if it's based on Proleague rankings then that's understandable.
It'll be interesting to see how the non-Korean scene fares against the KeSPA players after seeing them best quite a few eSF players in these recent months. Will it be the beginning of the end, or will we see glimmers of real competition against the elephants?
"high demand for regular online content" made me laugh, there is so much day to day online content aimed at the NA time zone I hope this is successful. I have no doubt when the big names play you will get great numbers but they won't be playing all the time.
On September 14 2012 12:17 Laryleprakon wrote: It will be fun to see the Kespa players
"high demand for regular online content" made me laugh, there is so much day to day online content aimed at the NA time zone I hope this is successful. I have no doubt when the big names play you will get great numbers but they won't be playing all the time.
same high demand lol? at 4pst-7pm I got like 6 streams open but still this will be number 7 cant wait
On September 14 2012 06:55 Megiddosc wrote: I'd definitely think a match between Stephano and Flash would be interesting.
Stephano would destroy him. The best Kespa players right now are not the famous Kespa players.
Maybe 2 months ago? At this point I'd give the edge to Flash, pretty comfortably. If you've been following the Korean scene lately you'd see that the A-teamers are quickly surpassing everyone around them, both IEF and KESPA players. The fact that they have surpassed the top foreigners is a given at this point.
Get real Stephano would destroy him. Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer. Its a total mismatch. Flash needs more time
It's cool that they're open to doing more online stuff, however I hope they get beyond invitationals after a certain point. It's always better with qualifiers!
1) I will beleive it when I see it actually happen. 2) Its a limited list of players - Jaedong missing? 3) I guarantee that this is an MLG charge event (yay! restricted content!!) 4) Online tourney. Replays. Boo.
On September 14 2012 14:49 LighT. wrote: its baffling how Jaehoon, Skyhight, Classic and hyvaa got in but not some of the better more experienced kespa palyers
to defend skyhigh for a moment. he did pull off a reverse all kill in a proleague finals. don't count him out.
On September 14 2012 14:43 Grimmyman123 wrote: 1) I will beleive it when I see it actually happen. 2) Its a limited list of players - Jaedong missing? 3) I guarantee that this is an MLG charge event (yay! restricted content!!) 4) Online tourney. Replays. Boo.
On September 14 2012 14:49 LighT. wrote: its baffling how Jaehoon, Skyhight, Classic and hyvaa got in but not some of the better more experienced kespa palyers
to defend skyhigh for a moment. he did pull off a reverse all kill in a proleague finals. don't count him out.
Is it time to think about Europeans viewers now? Cuz i would love to pay for the service, but the time difference is way to hard when you have a full time job
On September 14 2012 14:49 LighT. wrote: its baffling how Jaehoon, Skyhight, Classic and hyvaa got in but not some of the better more experienced kespa palyers
to defend skyhigh for a moment. he did pull off a reverse all kill in a proleague finals. don't count him out.
To argue your point, In Sc2, there are better terrans to choose from: Light, Reality, Snow There's more players in sc2 that were snubbed including: Flying, Sang In terms of bw results as players with more credentials: Sea, Leta, ZerO, Light, Hoejja
Heck, he's not even the best terran on the team, leta is. And Snow/Skyhigh is arguable although Snow is Toss in SCBW. And I can reiterate enough how awkward that Jaehoon was picked to be a part of this...might as well slot in Horang2 with Jaehoon so they ca smile and joke their way into a 0-# of the games they play, record.
On September 14 2012 14:49 LighT. wrote: its baffling how Jaehoon, Skyhight, Classic and hyvaa got in but not some of the better more experienced kespa palyers
to defend skyhigh for a moment. he did pull off a reverse all kill in a proleague finals. don't count him out.
To argue your point, In Sc2, there are better terrans to choose from: Light, Reality, Snow There's more players in sc2 that were snubbed including: Flying, Sang In terms of bw results as players with more credentials: Sea, Leta, ZerO, Light, Hoejja
Heck, he's not even the best terran on the team, leta is. And Snow/Skyhigh is arguable although Snow is Toss in SCBW. And I can reiterate enough how awkward that Jaehoon was picked to be a part of this...might as well slot in Horang2 with Jaehoon so they ca smile and joke their way into a 0-# of the games they play, record.
afaik its based on proleague ranking they took top 24
To add to the broadcast presentation, we are excited to announce that Nick “Axslav” Ranish and Alex “Axeltoss” Rodriguez are joining the MLG team to help broadcast our new content, and will serve as our live events expert analysts and commentators
Very happy for this. Axslav finally gets the big outbreak in his career that he deserves. I remember his first time doing analysis during Summer Arena and even though he was good, his voice was a bit shaky. But then seeing him cast along-side Kevin Knocke during IPTL the other day, you can see how he has improved immensely in such a short period of time, and he is much more confident.
With Grubby casting in the Korean OSL and Axslav in MLG, I believe that this is a MASSIVE improvement for the quality of commentating and analysis. Anyway, good job Axslav, well deserved and I look forward to seeing you on the big stage
aside from that it looks decently interesting... no way i'll have time to watch it with all the more interesting tournies going on, but still good shit and i'll make sure to check the results.
On September 14 2012 04:25 Raid wrote: Shame on an American tournament event trying to give themselves more spots to try to gain more exposure in their own homeland for their own players. Tsk tsk tsk..
Guessing this is sarcasm, but pretty much all tournaments do this. Hell, Dreamhack usually only has 1 or 2 NA players and maybe 5-6 Koreans. MLG is one of the best tournaments in terms of diversity.
Well no, Dreamhack doesn't do this cause Dreamhack doesn't give spots. Pretty big difference
So the Dreamhack Valencia Invitational is just called an invitational for fun?
Are you kidding me?
Way the go to look at last year, a 8 player invite tournament.
On September 14 2012 15:11 lemagrag wrote: Is it time to think about Europeans viewers now? Cuz i would love to pay for the service, but the time difference is way to hard when you have a full time job
it's an american tournament, they have vods after it's been aired live, if they catered to us euros na's would complain its on at 3am or something, just watch vods or stay up and watch live
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
On September 14 2012 19:02 Dawg_Snow wrote: Lol, 12 players from NA, are they going to match vibe/Minigun/QxC vs the likes of Mvp Nestea or stephano?
If I understood correctly is MLG (including this 12 NA, 6EU etc) vs KESPA, and those you mentioned are not KESPA.
In any case, is such a shame that the "International Team" (GSL are included?) will not be of full potential due to the quotas. Why not top 24 MLG? Still it's not "full power" but better than what has been proposed for the "sake" of e-sports.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
When did MC, Symbol, Squirtle, Alicia, JYP, and a bunch of others i cbf naming play Terran? I'm assuming this turned into an "open" statistic against just Koreans in general?
what the shit is Maj? and where is MVP, MMA, Taeja? aLive?
Granted Ryung, Polt, Keen and PuMa are "good", but they arent the best Korea has to offer...
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Not to rain on your parade...
1. Not all of those are Koreans.
2. Not all of those are Terran.
._.
3. Why would anyone questions Stephano's rates is beyond me.
Stephano hasn't competed against everyone, but he has competed against some pretty good players.
I look forward to seeing him in the GSL. Definitely one of our top dogs atm.
On September 14 2012 21:43 Benjamin99 wrote: Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Of those results, the ones I would say count as "top koreans" give stephano a 50% win rate, 23 wins 23 losses. Of the ones I would call "top korean Terrans" I would probably say there's only 1 series, and stephano lost it 1-2.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
I don't know how much of these I will watch tbh. I prefer watching team leagues at night. But who knows. There is so many things to watch every night its great,
On September 14 2012 23:23 Licit wrote: Do NA even have 12 sc2 pros?
not trying to be funny
Top 12 NA players by TLPD's elo
Major Huk Sheth Scarlett Suppy Idra Hawk Vibe Minigun Insur Ostojiy Axslav
With Axslav coming in at 210th overall. At least MLG is doing the early rounds by region, so the NA players that do make it out will have some chance. Better that than seeing Insur vs Flash or some other absurd matchup.
edit: 48 europeans make the top 209, also consider some of these players NA may not attend/participate
On September 14 2012 23:23 Licit wrote: Do NA even have 12 sc2 pros?
not trying to be funny
In before all the Americans lose all their matches...
I have no idea who can go against the non-Kespa koreans (just 6, gotta be quality). I have some hope for the US players winning against the Europeans not named Stephano, maybe a Kespa player or two will drop the ball. I am really fearing its going to be an all Korean ro16 with Stephano as exception. Maybe some foreigner makes it far because he plays foreigners alot till the ro16
On September 14 2012 23:14 Coolhwip wrote: This seems fairly unintresting to me, a big tournament where you dont focus to get the best players, whats the point?
Maybe if you were a little more pro gaming educated you'd feel as excited as everyone to see for the very first time a major roster consisting of Korean pro gaming superstars about to play abroad in an entirely new competitive environement, very different than the one they've been performing in the past 10 years or so. This is the very very very first time the core of the pro gaming mecca opens to the world. It's litteraly huge.
But then, sadly, you won't ever feel that sort of excitement nor understand a bit of it.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
On September 14 2012 23:23 Licit wrote: Do NA even have 12 sc2 pros?
not trying to be funny
Technically we have more than 12 sc2 "pros". In all reality they are mostly college dropouts or students that play sc2 as a serious hobby. With the exception of Idra, Sheth and Huk, they don't make enough money to be considered professionals.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
I think the point is you were the one who said 'against Korean Terrans', and crowed about how you checked your facts with the list you posted. I think the majority of responses are pointing that a) they're not all korean b) they're not all Terran so the win % you touted is inherently flawed based upon the evidence you presented. It has zero to do with Stephano, it is more a dissection of 'facts' that are not backed up by the specific evidence you presented.
In any case, if you hate this program so much, why not just not watch it and leave the thread alone? At this point I feel you're just instigating everyone. But to each his own. Have a great weekend
On September 14 2012 23:23 Licit wrote: Do NA even have 12 sc2 pros?
not trying to be funny
Top 12 NA players by TLPD's elo
Major Huk Sheth Scarlett Suppy Idra Hawk Vibe Minigun Insur Ostojiy Axslav
With Axslav coming in at 210th overall. At least MLG is doing the early rounds by region, so the NA players that do make it out will have some chance. Better that than seeing Insur vs Flash or some other absurd matchup.
edit: 48 europeans make the top 209, also consider some of these players NA may not attend/participate
Suppy is an emerging star. He makes a lot of small mistakes and that's why he racks up the loses. The guy should be winning a whole lot more once he gets over those hurdles. Same with Illusion.
No matter how many names the guy has Juan is good.
HuK's good when he's determined and not under practiced. Same rule applies for IdrA. What do you know Greg, you aren't so different from Chris after all!
Never overlook Sheth.
Scarlett is scary.
Hawk could be a lot better if his sole focus was on SC.
ViBe is pretty good.
Cannot really comment on Minigun, Insur, Ostojiy and Axslav. I honestly haven't watched enough of them to formulate an opinion.
*
I'm surprised by a few of these these names at the top of the NA ELO. Goes to show you how many things are actually considered for it because my list would look a lot different. =/
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
The dude has a point man. The list you gave was inaccurate in showing what you described. If you want to focus on the Korean factor then just list the Koreans, or else be prepared for others to point that shit out.
We'll see Stephano in the GSL soon enough where he'll face the toughest competition Korea has to offer.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
You type things like...
"Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer."
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
... then 'prove' it with a list on which less than half players are in fact Terran as 'proof', and insult me as a 'clown' who 'can't read stats', even though the entire time you are the one who insists on specifying exact percentages based on blatantly wrong information.
As for, 'who the feck is better', that's certainly up to discussion however I wouldn't call Rain or Ryung the 'best' in Korean TvZ.
Regardless, I'll repeat this again, I never said Stephano is a bad player (he isn't), but his ZvT isn't amazing nor does he have a 73% winrate against Korean Terrans. He's good, sure. It's just people like you that are annoying.
On September 14 2012 23:23 Licit wrote: Do NA even have 12 sc2 pros?
not trying to be funny
Top 12 NA players by TLPD's elo
Major Huk Sheth Scarlett Suppy Idra Hawk Vibe Minigun Insur Ostojiy Axslav
With Axslav coming in at 210th overall. At least MLG is doing the early rounds by region, so the NA players that do make it out will have some chance. Better that than seeing Insur vs Flash or some other absurd matchup.
edit: 48 europeans make the top 209, also consider some of these players NA may not attend/participate
Suppy is an emerging star. He makes a lot of small mistakes and that's why he racks up the loses. The guy should be winning a whole lot more once he gets over those hurdles. Same with Illusion.
No matter how many names the guy has Juan is good.
HuK's good when he's determined and not under practiced. Same rule applies for IdrA. What do you know Greg, you aren't so different from Chris after all!
Never overlook Sheth.
Scarlett is scary.
Hawk could be a lot better if his sole focus was on SC.
ViBe is pretty good.
Cannot really comment on Minigun, Insur, Ostojiy and Axslav. I honestly haven't watched enough of them to formulate an opinion.
*
I'm surprised by a few of these these names at the top of the NA ELO. Goes to show you how many things are actually considered for it because my list would look a lot different. =/
The top half of that list I feel are capable of big wins here and there, but aren't very consistent so nobody considers them a favorite. Great choices for a tournament like thit - there's bound to be an upset or two of a kespa player which gets everyone excited. I feel that they gave too many slots to North America though. The skill gap is too large, hawk or vibe or axslav are simply not good enough right now to beat a korean. I'd rather see those slots given to a european or any foreigner with a fighting chance.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
The dude has a point man. The list you gave was inaccurate in showing what you described. If you want to focus on the Korean factor then just list the Koreans, or else be prepared for others to point that shit out.
We'll see Stephano in the GSL soon enough where he'll face the toughest competition Korea has to offer.
Lol, yeah he made him look silly with that inaccurate list. That would be like me arguing nestea back in the day had awesome zvt (which he didn't), then showing a list mainly of zvz to prove how awesome his zvt was.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
You type things like...
"Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer."
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
... then 'prove' it with a list on which less than half players are in fact Terran as 'proof', and insult me as a 'clown' who 'can't read stats', even though the entire time you are the one who insists on specifying exact percentages based on blatantly wrong information.
As for, 'who the feck is better', that's certainly up to discussion however I wouldn't call Rain or Ryung the 'best' in Korean TvZ.
Regardless, I'll repeat this again, I never said Stephano is a bad player (he isn't), but his ZvT isn't amazing nor does he have a 73% winrate against Korean Terrans. He's good, sure. It's just people like you that are annoying.
Sure feel sorry for your sister, though.
I agree, it's annoying when people bring numbers as proof and can't even read numbers properly.
If you get TLPD since 1.4.3.2 (or 01/05/12, it's exactly the same when you only keep the Korean ones), you get this :
There's probably mistakes but my point still is : you're about 10% wrong bro.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
You type things like...
"Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer."
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
... then 'prove' it with a list on which less than half players are in fact Terran as 'proof', and insult me as a 'clown' who 'can't read stats', even though the entire time you are the one who insists on specifying exact percentages based on blatantly wrong information.
As for, 'who the feck is better', that's certainly up to discussion however I wouldn't call Rain or Ryung the 'best' in Korean TvZ.
Regardless, I'll repeat this again, I never said Stephano is a bad player (he isn't), but his ZvT isn't amazing nor does he have a 73% winrate against Korean Terrans. He's good, sure. It's just people like you that are annoying.
Sure feel sorry for your sister, though.
I agree, it's annoying when people bring numbers as proof and can't even read numbers properly.
If you get TLPD since 1.4.3.2 (or 01/05/12, it's exactly the same when you only keep the Korean ones), you get this :
There's probably mistakes but my point still is : you're about 10% wrong bro.
Now back to MLG vs Proleague :3
Keen is Code S. Or at least he was when he played Stephano. Ganzi too. The STC had also been in Code S in the most recent season of GSL prior to playing MLG Summer Championship.
29 wins 15 losses in 44 matches against Code S Terran players is 66% win rate.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
You type things like...
"Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer."
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
... then 'prove' it with a list on which less than half players are in fact Terran as 'proof', and insult me as a 'clown' who 'can't read stats', even though the entire time you are the one who insists on specifying exact percentages based on blatantly wrong information.
As for, 'who the feck is better', that's certainly up to discussion however I wouldn't call Rain or Ryung the 'best' in Korean TvZ.
Regardless, I'll repeat this again, I never said Stephano is a bad player (he isn't), but his ZvT isn't amazing nor does he have a 73% winrate against Korean Terrans. He's good, sure. It's just people like you that are annoying.
Sure feel sorry for your sister, though.
I agree, it's annoying when people bring numbers as proof and can't even read numbers properly.
If you get TLPD since 1.4.3.2 (or 01/05/12, it's exactly the same when you only keep the Korean ones), you get this :
There's probably mistakes but my point still is : you're about 10% wrong bro.
Now back to MLG vs Proleague :3
Keen is Code S. Or at least he was when he played Stephano. Ganzi too.
While I agree, it doesn't really matter. All Koreans T it's 65%, my S selection it's 60%, yours is 64% but's it's not 73% which was kinda my point. :D
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
You type things like...
"Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer."
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
... then 'prove' it with a list on which less than half players are in fact Terran as 'proof', and insult me as a 'clown' who 'can't read stats', even though the entire time you are the one who insists on specifying exact percentages based on blatantly wrong information.
As for, 'who the feck is better', that's certainly up to discussion however I wouldn't call Rain or Ryung the 'best' in Korean TvZ.
Regardless, I'll repeat this again, I never said Stephano is a bad player (he isn't), but his ZvT isn't amazing nor does he have a 73% winrate against Korean Terrans. He's good, sure. It's just people like you that are annoying.
Sure feel sorry for your sister, though.
I agree, it's annoying when people bring numbers as proof and can't even read numbers properly.
If you get TLPD since 1.4.3.2 (or 01/05/12, it's exactly the same when you only keep the Korean ones), you get this :
There's probably mistakes but my point still is : you're about 10% wrong bro.
Now back to MLG vs Proleague :3
Keen is Code S. Or at least he was when he played Stephano. Ganzi too.
While I agree, it doesn't really matter. All Koreans T it's 65%, my S selection it's 60%, yours is 64% but's it's not 73% which was kinda my point. :D
I am just trying to be accurate. I have no interest in arguing.
I think this particular tournament is going to be incredibly strong with an amazing lineup. So fascinating to see Stephano, Naniwa, Scarlett, DRG, MC, MVP, MKP, Flash, JD and the others all potentially face each other.
On September 14 2012 23:23 Licit wrote: Do NA even have 12 sc2 pros?
not trying to be funny
Top 12 NA players by TLPD's elo
Major Huk Sheth Scarlett Suppy Idra Hawk Vibe Minigun Insur Ostojiy Axslav
With Axslav coming in at 210th overall. At least MLG is doing the early rounds by region, so the NA players that do make it out will have some chance. Better that than seeing Insur vs Flash or some other absurd matchup.
edit: 48 europeans make the top 209, also consider some of these players NA may not attend/participate
Suppy is an emerging star. He makes a lot of small mistakes and that's why he racks up the loses. The guy should be winning a whole lot more once he gets over those hurdles. Same with Illusion.
No matter how many names the guy has Juan is good.
HuK's good when he's determined and not under practiced. Same rule applies for IdrA. What do you know Greg, you aren't so different from Chris after all!
Never overlook Sheth.
Scarlett is scary.
Hawk could be a lot better if his sole focus was on SC.
ViBe is pretty good.
Cannot really comment on Minigun, Insur, Ostojiy and Axslav. I honestly haven't watched enough of them to formulate an opinion.
*
I'm surprised by a few of these these names at the top of the NA ELO. Goes to show you how many things are actually considered for it because my list would look a lot different. =/
The top half of that list I feel are capable of big wins here and there, but aren't very consistent so nobody considers them a favorite. Great choices for a tournament like thit - there's bound to be an upset or two of a kespa player which gets everyone excited. I feel that they gave too many slots to North America though. The skill gap is too large, hawk or vibe or axslav are simply not good enough right now to beat a korean. I'd rather see those slots given to a european or any foreigner with a fighting chance.
Inaugural year?
There was a time when HuK and IdrA were pretty consistent with finishing anywhere from top 16 or higher.
It comes down to practice man. Those guys have to work for it just like the rest. There are very few players out there who can turn it off and on and not really miss a beat. That's very rare and as highly as these guys think they are. They are no different from the blue collar guys. They get everything they put into the game.
As for ViBe. I don't think he'll have a problem taking a game from a Korean compared to many of the others.
Slush and ViBe are both wild cards.
P.S. We need more statisticans like Bruno from DotA2.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
The dude has a point man. The list you gave was inaccurate in showing what you described. If you want to focus on the Korean factor then just list the Koreans, or else be prepared for others to point that shit out.
We'll see Stephano in the GSL soon enough where he'll face the toughest competition Korea has to offer.
He got no point I said most of them was Korean top players and 35 of 43 matches is bloody most of them. And here we go again: "he needs to play in GSL". No he fucking don't when he beat all these players in every other tournament. I'm so tired of this shit I have listen to this crap almost a year.
Stephano has had people hating at his potential since he became a Pro. There was a thread about his ladder run in EU. Haters ignored him and said he would get owned at LANS. He won IPL3 and the haters said he only won because his opponents were unprepared for his style. He struggled against Korean Terrans at MLG and the haters said he has been found out by the opponents he beat a week or so before at IPL3. He won ESWC and the haters said that he would be found out soon. They said he would get owned at Blizzard Cup. He went 2-2 at Blizzard Cup and went out despite having the same score as MC. Oh Bomber is not very good, Puma is average, Polt is just OK, JYP is not so good, Ryung is no good etc, MC not very good, Parting and Squirtle bad at PvZ. No-one else gets this level of fucking disrespect. When Stephano won Lone star crash. Small tournament doesn't matter. When he took 3rd at Redbull lan after dominating parting and Squirtle people were more focused about his lost to MC. When he took 3rd at MLG arena people sayd it was just luck. When he won NASL people were saying he was lucky he only had to play ZvP and Hero had an offday. When Jjakji rose to win GSL did haters slag off the opponents he defeated? Do people disrespect DRG's opponents?
Im so fucking tired of this shit. Its almost borderline racism. If you arnt a Korean player in this scene no matter what achievements the man does its not good enough.
72% win ratio since maj in off-line tournaments and still the guy gets slack. Name me 1 fucking other player who got a 72% win ratio in off-line tournaments since Maj. But it doesn't matter because " We will see how he does in GSL" You know what? Ill say this with my deepest respect for you. You can take you: "we will see how he does in GSL" and shove it up you ass buddy.
Excuse my French maybe I'm a bit to emotional but I'm so tired of hearing this crap.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
The dude has a point man. The list you gave was inaccurate in showing what you described. If you want to focus on the Korean factor then just list the Koreans, or else be prepared for others to point that shit out.
We'll see Stephano in the GSL soon enough where he'll face the toughest competition Korea has to offer.
He got no point I said most of them was Korean top players and 35 of 43 matches is bloody most of them. And here we go again: "he needs to play in GSL". No he fucking don't when he beat all these players in every other tournament. I'm so tired of this shit I have listen to this crap almost a year.
Stephano has had people hating at his potential since he became a Pro. There was a thread about his ladder run in EU. Haters ignored him and said he would get owned at LANS. He won IPL3 and the haters said he only won because his opponents were unprepared for his style. He struggled against Korean Terrans at MLG and the haters said he has been found out by the opponents he beat a week or so before at IPL3. He won ESWC and the haters said that he would be found out soon. They said he would get owned at Blizzard Cup. He went 2-2 at Blizzard Cup and went out despite having the same score as MC. Oh Bomber is not very good, Puma is average, Polt is just OK, JYP is not so good, Ryung is no good etc, MC not very good, Parting and Squirtle bad at PvZ. No-one else gets this level of fucking disrespect. When Stephano won Lone star crash. Small tournament doesn't matter. When he took 3rd at Redbull lan after dominating parting and Squirtle people were more focused about his lost to MC. When he took 3rd at MLG arena people sayd it was just luck. When he won NASL people were saying he was lucky he only had to play ZvP and Hero had an offday. When Jjakji rose to win GSL did haters slag off the opponents he defeated? Do people disrespect DRG's opponents?
Im so fucking tired of this shit. Its almost borderline racism. If you arnt a Korean player in this scene no matter what achievements the man does its not good enough.
72% win ratio since maj in off-line tournaments and still the guy gets slack. Name me 1 fucking other player who got a 72% win ratio in off-line tournaments since Maj. But it doesn't matter because " We will see how he does in GSL" You know what? Ill say this with my deepest respect for you. You can take you: "we will see how he does in GSL" and shove it up you ass buddy.
Excuse my French maybe I'm a bit to emotional but I'm so tired of hearing this crap.
Again, not a single person is arguing with you about how good Stephano is, we all agree he is incredible. What is being disputed, or pointed out I guess, is your gross misuse and outright incorrect use of statistics. Something you said is false, and that is all that they're trying to say. Here is my response from the previous page.
I think the point is you were the one who said 'against Korean Terrans', and crowed about how you checked your facts with the list you posted. I think the majority of responses are pointing that a) they're not all korean b) they're not all Terran so the win % you touted is inherently flawed based upon the evidence you presented. It has zero to do with Stephano, it is more a dissection of 'facts' that are not backed up by the specific evidence you presented.
In any case, if you hate this program so much, why not just not watch it and leave the thread alone? At this point I feel you're just instigating everyone. But to each his own. Have a great weekend
Point I'm really getting at is, you have a choice to watch or not to watch this tournament. If you are so against it, why not stop trolling the thread and let discussion about it continue?
Cannot really comment on Minigun, Insur, Ostojiy and Axslav. I honestly haven't watched enough of them to formulate an opinion.
Ostojiy is Fantastic, right up there with HuK in terms of skill these days actually,=, hence him placing 2nd at WCS Canada and Top 8 at WCS NA.
A buddy of mine swears that Axslav is a player on the rise now, though I haven't seen him play much lately either, his commentary is well informed when he's casting tho so I'd be cautiously optimistic about that one.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
The dude has a point man. The list you gave was inaccurate in showing what you described. If you want to focus on the Korean factor then just list the Koreans, or else be prepared for others to point that shit out.
We'll see Stephano in the GSL soon enough where he'll face the toughest competition Korea has to offer.
He got no point I said most of them was Korean top players and 35 of 43 matches is bloody most of them. And here we go again: "he needs to play in GSL". No he fucking don't when he beat all these players in every other tournament. I'm so tired of this shit I have listen to this crap almost a year.
Stephano has had people hating at his potential since he became a Pro. There was a thread about his ladder run in EU. Haters ignored him and said he would get owned at LANS. He won IPL3 and the haters said he only won because his opponents were unprepared for his style. He struggled against Korean Terrans at MLG and the haters said he has been found out by the opponents he beat a week or so before at IPL3. He won ESWC and the haters said that he would be found out soon. They said he would get owned at Blizzard Cup. He went 2-2 at Blizzard Cup and went out despite having the same score as MC. Oh Bomber is not very good, Puma is average, Polt is just OK, JYP is not so good, Ryung is no good etc, MC not very good, Parting and Squirtle bad at PvZ. No-one else gets this level of fucking disrespect. When Stephano won Lone star crash. Small tournament doesn't matter. When he took 3rd at Redbull lan after dominating parting and Squirtle people were more focused about his lost to MC. When he took 3rd at MLG arena people sayd it was just luck. When he won NASL people were saying he was lucky he only had to play ZvP and Hero had an offday. When Jjakji rose to win GSL did haters slag off the opponents he defeated? Do people disrespect DRG's opponents?
Im so fucking tired of this shit. Its almost borderline racism. If you arnt a Korean player in this scene no matter what achievements the man does its not good enough.
72% win ratio since maj in off-line tournaments and still the guy gets slack. Name me 1 fucking other player who got a 72% win ratio in off-line tournaments since Maj. But it doesn't matter because " We will see how he does in GSL" You know what? Ill say this with my deepest respect for you. You can take you: "we will see how he does in GSL" and shove it up you ass buddy.
Excuse my French maybe I'm a bit to emotional but I'm so tired of hearing this crap.
Oh my god, give it a rest. Who the fuck are these 'haters?' you speak of. In my experience most anti-Stephano sentiment is actually created only as a reaction to his fanboys who have to turn every single thread no matter how unrelated, into a discussion about him.
Stephano is good, people accept that. It's people like you claiming he is some kind of second coming, or defending him when he patently doesn't need defended, every thread. Everyone knows about his ZvP being godlike, his other matchups aren't quite as good against the top players out there, but Stephano's ZvT is good enough to beat pretty much every non TvZ specialist Korean.
He hasn't played a GSL, the format is different and he's had chances to go and prove his doubters wrong by playing it. He's clearly got ability, if he's got the ability to win a GSL or whatever go and do it.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
The dude has a point man. The list you gave was inaccurate in showing what you described. If you want to focus on the Korean factor then just list the Koreans, or else be prepared for others to point that shit out.
We'll see Stephano in the GSL soon enough where he'll face the toughest competition Korea has to offer.
He got no point I said most of them was Korean top players and 35 of 43 matches is bloody most of them. And here we go again: "he needs to play in GSL". No he fucking don't when he beat all these players in every other tournament. I'm so tired of this shit I have listen to this crap almost a year.
Stephano has had people hating at his potential since he became a Pro. There was a thread about his ladder run in EU. Haters ignored him and said he would get owned at LANS. He won IPL3 and the haters said he only won because his opponents were unprepared for his style. He struggled against Korean Terrans at MLG and the haters said he has been found out by the opponents he beat a week or so before at IPL3. He won ESWC and the haters said that he would be found out soon. They said he would get owned at Blizzard Cup. He went 2-2 at Blizzard Cup and went out despite having the same score as MC. Oh Bomber is not very good, Puma is average, Polt is just OK, JYP is not so good, Ryung is no good etc, MC not very good, Parting and Squirtle bad at PvZ. No-one else gets this level of fucking disrespect. When Stephano won Lone star crash. Small tournament doesn't matter. When he took 3rd at Redbull lan after dominating parting and Squirtle people were more focused about his lost to MC. When he took 3rd at MLG arena people sayd it was just luck. When he won NASL people were saying he was lucky he only had to play ZvP and Hero had an offday. When Jjakji rose to win GSL did haters slag off the opponents he defeated? Do people disrespect DRG's opponents?
Im so fucking tired of this shit. Its almost borderline racism. If you arnt a Korean player in this scene no matter what achievements the man does its not good enough.
72% win ratio since maj in off-line tournaments and still the guy gets slack. Name me 1 fucking other player who got a 72% win ratio in off-line tournaments since Maj. But it doesn't matter because " We will see how he does in GSL" You know what? Ill say this with my deepest respect for you. You can take you: "we will see how he does in GSL" and shove it up you ass buddy.
Excuse my French maybe I'm a bit to emotional but I'm so tired of hearing this crap.
Again, not a single person is arguing with you about how good Stephano is, we all agree he is incredible. What is being disputed, or pointed out I guess, is your gross misuse and outright incorrect use of statistics. Something you said is false, and that is all that they're trying to say. Here is my response from the previous page.
I think the point is you were the one who said 'against Korean Terrans', and crowed about how you checked your facts with the list you posted. I think the majority of responses are pointing that a) they're not all korean b) they're not all Terran so the win % you touted is inherently flawed based upon the evidence you presented. It has zero to do with Stephano, it is more a dissection of 'facts' that are not backed up by the specific evidence you presented.
In any case, if you hate this program so much, why not just not watch it and leave the thread alone? At this point I feel you're just instigating everyone. But to each his own. Have a great weekend
Point I'm really getting at is, you have a choice to watch or not to watch this tournament. If you are so against it, why not stop trolling the thread and let discussion about it continue?
I never said Korean terrans please find my post where I said that. I said his offline results since Maj and for that I'm correct. And frankly I'm quite offended that you come and say I'm instigating everyone for just stating the stats and facts. And wtf calling me a troll? I never trolled anyone in my entire life.
So because some pages ago where I point out how unfair and unsportsmanlike this format is you have to attack me by calling me a troll? Frankly this is as insulting as you new format. People got different opinions MLG Adam and we are hopefully still allowed to express that on TL. I understand it would be easier for you business if people just kissed you ass and bought you tickets. But if you make a PR thread you should be expected to be scrutinised about you unsportsmanlike conduct.
Anyway I am sorry for derailing the thread and I wont post any more. But calling me a troll is way out of order
On September 14 2012 12:32 Benjamin99 wrote: Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer.
But that's not true.
From 1st Maj 2012 until today 57 wins - 21 losses ZvT (73.08%)
And BTW you really shouldn't argue me with numbers I love numbers
It's not 72% against 'the best Korea has got to offer'. If you want to nitpick on numbers and words, you should really check your facts more thoroughly.
Since Maj Stephano has pretty much only played vs Korean top players in off-line tournaments. Go check it by yourself. I check my facts you apparently don't.
Edit: actually ill do it for you
Stephano´s off-line tournament opponents since Maj
Stephano vs Revival 0-2 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs TheSTC 2-0 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 1-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 0-2 Stephano vs Hero 2-1 Stephano vs Ryung 2-1 Stephano vs Oz 1-2 Stephano vs Revival 2-1 Stephano vs QXC 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 4-0 Stephano vs MC 4-2 Stephano vs Hero 3-1 Stephano vs Mana 0-2 Stephano vs Nerchio 2-0 Stephano vs Keen 2-0 Stephano vs Huk 2-0 Stephano vs Morrow 2-0 Stephano vs Slivko 0-2 Stephano vs Puma 2-0 Stephano vs Daisy 2-0 Stephano vs Freizy 2-0 Stephano vs Sase 1-2 Stephano vs MKP 1-2 Stephano vs Rain 2-1 Stephano vs JYP 2-0 Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0 Stephano vs Alicia 2-0 Stephano vs Polt 2-1 Stephano vs Squirtle 3-1 Stephano vs MC 2-3 Stephano vs Parting 2-0 Stephano vs Rain 2-0 Stephano vs Violet 2-1 Stephano vs Violet 0-2 Stephano vs Symbol 0-2 Stephano vs Heart 2-1 Stephano vs MC 2-0 Stephano vs Ret 2-0 Stephano vs Ryung 2-0
43 matches played 31 won total win %72 number of Korean opponents: 35.
Have a nice day end of argument
Most of these players aren't Terran, plenty of them aren't Korean, and most of the Korean T's on that list are hardly 'best Korea has to offer', especially TvZ-wise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stephano isn't good or anything. But people like you are annoying, and your 'facts' aren't right.
Apparently you cant count either. I don't even know why I keep responding to you. How can you say plenty of them aren't Korean when 35 out of 43 matches is against Korean opponents. And hardly the best Korea got to offer? lol? Who the feck is better? Normally I don't attack people on these forums but you my dear are a clown who cant even count or read stats properly but wow you sure are opinionated. You remind me of my sister loud and ignorant and refuse to listen to facts.
Anyway enough, sorry for derailing the thread
The dude has a point man. The list you gave was inaccurate in showing what you described. If you want to focus on the Korean factor then just list the Koreans, or else be prepared for others to point that shit out.
We'll see Stephano in the GSL soon enough where he'll face the toughest competition Korea has to offer.
He got no point I said most of them was Korean top players and 35 of 43 matches is bloody most of them. And here we go again: "he needs to play in GSL". No he fucking don't when he beat all these players in every other tournament. I'm so tired of this shit I have listen to this crap almost a year.
Stephano has had people hating at his potential since he became a Pro. There was a thread about his ladder run in EU. Haters ignored him and said he would get owned at LANS. He won IPL3 and the haters said he only won because his opponents were unprepared for his style. He struggled against Korean Terrans at MLG and the haters said he has been found out by the opponents he beat a week or so before at IPL3. He won ESWC and the haters said that he would be found out soon. They said he would get owned at Blizzard Cup. He went 2-2 at Blizzard Cup and went out despite having the same score as MC. Oh Bomber is not very good, Puma is average, Polt is just OK, JYP is not so good, Ryung is no good etc, MC not very good, Parting and Squirtle bad at PvZ. No-one else gets this level of fucking disrespect. When Stephano won Lone star crash. Small tournament doesn't matter. When he took 3rd at Redbull lan after dominating parting and Squirtle people were more focused about his lost to MC. When he took 3rd at MLG arena people sayd it was just luck. When he won NASL people were saying he was lucky he only had to play ZvP and Hero had an offday. When Jjakji rose to win GSL did haters slag off the opponents he defeated? Do people disrespect DRG's opponents?
Im so fucking tired of this shit. Its almost borderline racism. If you arnt a Korean player in this scene no matter what achievements the man does its not good enough.
72% win ratio since maj in off-line tournaments and still the guy gets slack. Name me 1 fucking other player who got a 72% win ratio in off-line tournaments since Maj. But it doesn't matter because " We will see how he does in GSL" You know what? Ill say this with my deepest respect for you. You can take you: "we will see how he does in GSL" and shove it up you ass buddy.
Excuse my French maybe I'm a bit to emotional but I'm so tired of hearing this crap.
Again, not a single person is arguing with you about how good Stephano is, we all agree he is incredible. What is being disputed, or pointed out I guess, is your gross misuse and outright incorrect use of statistics. Something you said is false, and that is all that they're trying to say. Here is my response from the previous page.
I think the point is you were the one who said 'against Korean Terrans', and crowed about how you checked your facts with the list you posted. I think the majority of responses are pointing that a) they're not all korean b) they're not all Terran so the win % you touted is inherently flawed based upon the evidence you presented. It has zero to do with Stephano, it is more a dissection of 'facts' that are not backed up by the specific evidence you presented.
In any case, if you hate this program so much, why not just not watch it and leave the thread alone? At this point I feel you're just instigating everyone. But to each his own. Have a great weekend
Point I'm really getting at is, you have a choice to watch or not to watch this tournament. If you are so against it, why not stop trolling the thread and let discussion about it continue?
I never said Korean terrans please find my post where I said that.
You really make this too easy for people. It all started from this post.
On September 14 2012 06:55 Megiddosc wrote: I'd definitely think a match between Stephano and Flash would be interesting.
Stephano would destroy him. The best Kespa players right now are not the famous Kespa players.
Maybe 2 months ago? At this point I'd give the edge to Flash, pretty comfortably. If you've been following the Korean scene lately you'd see that the A-teamers are quickly surpassing everyone around them, both IEF and KESPA players. The fact that they have surpassed the top foreigners is a given at this point.
Get real Stephano would destroy him. Stephano ZvT win ratio the last 5 months is 72% against the best Korea got to offer. Its a total mismatch. Flash needs more time
The point is this whole conversation started from this quote and you said his zvt is 72% against the best korea has got to offer. That 72% was his whole zvt since May and not just against korean terrans. People called you out on that, and you keep denying you said that.
I bet next you're going to say, I didn't mean all korean terrans, I just meant most of them were koreans. Well then if you really meant that, then you should have said that and then only used stats against korean terrans. I counted briefly, so I may have miscounted but I got 35-18 for 66%. It's close to 72%, but isn't exactly 72%, which is the point since you said someone shouldn't argue with you with numbers since you love numbers. You just don't love numbers enough to use them correctly.
Let's move along. Just another fanboy who loves his number and uses them anywhere to prove something that doesnt relate to anything yet calls other people haters because they told him he was wrong.
I don't know what's worse... the dude arguing he didn't say something that is clearly still there as proof or the people going into pages of arguments over a somewhat minor discrepency in his statistics.
While his statistics are wrong, his point is still clearly there... Stephano has been strong in that matchup lately.
You think his staitistic is bad? Try watching the Presidential debates! = )
On September 20 2012 10:03 Xeris wrote: this is supposed to start today but neither KawaiiRice or Caliber have received instructions as to how to play or who they're playing or where/when
Except Stephano isn't good, which he will demonstrate when he gets dropped by the first Kespa pro he plays.
But I guess getting shat on by Kespa players really isn't a measurement of skill, because soon, everyone will be practically Bronze league compared to them.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NcWsZ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VuZhg.png)
![[image loading]](http://wordpress.tools.majorleaguegaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/fall-season-banner.jpg)
Poor guy, he's like one of the very few to have reached out to the foreign scene in the past
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0sJ9B.png)
