On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks ~~LgNkarmy
What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer?
"Lawyer" that wouldn't provide proof of their license to perform the duties that in most countries require extensive schooling and preparation. If I had a lawyer that I wanted to take a look at something, and they wouldn't provide some sort of license number or proof of being allowed legally to practice law in a major country/state, then they wouldn't be my lawyer anymore. I don't think this is unreasonable for MoW to ask for, as a lot of what they're doing is an expensive risk in the first place, who knows if the guy you're providing these documents to isn't really from EG for instance.
As for the arguments about the price, while I don't know exactly what they ended up implementing, the sports psychologists, training facility, coaching, upkeep, etc. All add quite a bit to the cost of living. This also allows them to have players come out for a couple months as part of contests and such, put on tournaments, maybe even pay the staff a little bit. Yeah, you can probably survive anywhere on that much money per month, but you wouldn't have the same experience.
On September 13 2012 09:09 mortales wrote: MinistryOfWin's response looks fine to me. Fuzer just wanted to start flame war (as he has already said himself) and he has achieved this goal. The only thing which I found really bad is that he had been disturbed at night, although it was solved as he required it. All others aren't that bad in my point of view. I would like to notice one thing about Fuzer: he actually didn't want to "tell the truth", but he wanted to defame MoW. I mean, he said in his statement that they didn't want to give him his money back, but now it's clear that it's not true, he had refused these money preferring to start flame wars. At least it's one thing he lied. Who knows if everything else is true or not?
You need to work on your reading skills perhaps?? If you look at the date and time stamps of the chat log in Skype they are from today after he posted his shit storm thread. So MoW offered him his money back after he opened the thread.
On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote: This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all. Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW.
LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams.
10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document.
Being stream sniped or having all your strategies revealed seems a good reason or in other words: Why do Kespa Players not stream? :D
On September 13 2012 09:08 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Come to MoW. Become marginally better at a computer game while overpaying for rent, with no services, and no food.
It's not even the overpaying that I think is the issue. Hell, even the required time of playing per month should be expected, as that's the whole point of moving there. The issue becomes not feeling comfortable with the contract, and being kicked out as a result of wanting an attorney to look over it, while being refused to have your prepaid rent refunded. Additionally, it sounds like the head of that house is very unprofessional, if he's throwing parties, stumbling home drunk and disrupting the player's sleep.
housing, food, gym, computer setup, someone who cooks for you, a coach (well, one coach)... i think 600 euro's is okay for that, especially when you know it up front, there is really no complaining - take it or leave it.
Having to stream 150hrs/month is quite much, they basically build their own streaming farm generating money :D
But I guess they come out with a profit, keep in mind they also have sponsors and poland is quite cheap
On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote: We didn't wanted to start the flame war but to complete this in civilized manner. Fuzer was reprimanded more than 10 times, about cleaning his room, keeping the gaming room clean, nothing helped. We have decided that we will sign the contract as soon as possible so we can enforce the house rules on him, but he declined. He declined second time.
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day.
Streaming ad-revenue: Thanks to strategic partnership with Twitch, players living in the house still can earn more money from ad-revenue than they normally could, Fuzer didn't even had any partnership before that.
150 hours per month is 5 hours a day....
Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Lol, the whole point is to get better.
1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way.
2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming.
3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote: We didn't wanted to start the flame war but to complete this in civilized manner. Fuzer was reprimanded more than 10 times, about cleaning his room, keeping the gaming room clean, nothing helped. We have decided that we will sign the contract as soon as possible so we can enforce the house rules on him, but he declined. He declined second time.
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day.
Streaming ad-revenue: Thanks to strategic partnership with Twitch, players living in the house still can earn more money from ad-revenue than they normally could, Fuzer didn't even had any partnership before that.
150 hours per month is 5 hours a day....
Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Yay! because being a progamer is about streaming and not preparing to go to competitive events... at all!!
On September 13 2012 09:18 Xorphene wrote: I'd like to know if MoW actually have coaches for the players or if the players are expected to get better purely by collaborating with each other ?
We had coaches. We had Matiz who was an in house coach, and we practised/talked a lot between players. We had players and coaches online as well.
I'm still struggling to understand what progamer in their right mind would pay 600 euros a month PLUS stream revenue PLUS 150 hours of streaming minimum PLUS sign a 10 year no-compete clause for the privilege of living in a house in Poland. I mean, really now. Even if the no-compete clause is so laughably legally unenforceable that any judge would likely take one look at it and piss their robes laughing.
Streaming is hardly good practise, so signing away a huge chunk of your life to do this doesn't make for a constructive practise environment.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through.
What if I have a contract in my desk stating you must pay me 100$ every month? Yes it states that. You didn't sign it? Too bad. Now the money please.
On September 13 2012 09:20 Korelle wrote: I'm still struggling to understand what progamer in their right mind would pay 600 euros a month PLUS stream revenue PLUS 150 hours of streaming minimum PLUS sign a 10 year no-compete clause for the privilege of living in a house in Poland. I mean, really now. Even if the no-compete clause is so laughably legally unenforceable that any judge would likely take one look at it and piss their robes laughing.
They are not paying stream revenue. MoW are sharing a twitch partnership with players that doesn't have one. It has been stated that the players that already have such partnerships have been able to change their contract.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks ~~LgNkarmy
What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer?
He was aloud, It was stated they agreed to that but they wanted to see the lawyers license. They never got that and needed it to be signed. Like I said it should have been done before he moved it, but mistakes were made.
And then they forced him out not giving Fuzer time to get those papers? And why the fuck would they even require something like that.
Because it's a contract and NDA that they would like to keep confidential from eyes that don't have to see it. A lawyer has to keep it confidential.
That should be in the OP as well so that topic stops coming up. =P
While you are right, i find it a bit annoying and is this really standard? I always get my parents to check over my contracts as they are more experienced in finding mistakes and so far companies have been fine with it ( maybe something to be changed?)
Okay guys stop talking about the streaming, It has nothing to do with anything. MoW promoted us as players a lot, They aloud us to run commercials with twitch, which many of us couldn't do before. So I went from making nothing, To making something and getting a small cut taken. Trust me the cut was small. So why does it matter? And when you're making money, Streaming 8 hours a day is NOTHING. We weren't suppose to stream the first 5 hours of the day because it was ment for custom practice and to improve. It was hard not to, I wanted to stream more, I wanted to run commericials, I wanted to double the streaming requirement. It wasn't hard to do it. You're blowing it way out of the water without even thinking behind it.
TLDR. Went from not making money from streaming, To making money from streaming with a small cut. Not a big deal, Almost expected.
On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote: This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all. Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW.
LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams.
10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document.
On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote: MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA.
another one.. read up.
Because Stream is NOT good for training. Polt suffered greatly when he non stop streamed, same with ForGG. And all the top streamer on TL is not getting any better.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through.
What if I have a contract in my desk stating you must pay me 100$ every month? Yes it states that. You didn't sign it? Too bad. Now the money please.
Pretty much. Arguments that hinge on the contract binding Fuzer in some way are stupid, because Fuzer wasn't bound by the contract, because he hadn't signed it.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through.
What if I have a contract in my desk stating you must pay me 100$ every month? Yes it states that. You didn't sign it? Too bad. Now the money please.
As I have said, Mistakes were made. Fuzer shouldn't have even though about moving without a contract first while paying so much a month, At the same time MoW already stated they will never allow a player to move in without the contract signed. Why can't we just agree that mistakes were made but it's nothing to blow up about...
On September 13 2012 09:23 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys stop talking about the streaming, It has nothing to do with anything. MoW promoted us as players a lot, They aloud us to run commercials with twitch, which many of us couldn't do before. So I went from making nothing, To making something and getting a small cut taken. Trust me the cut was small. So why does it matter? And when you're making money, Streaming 8 hours a day is NOTHING. We weren't suppose to stream the first 5 hours of the day because it was ment for custom practice and to improve. It was hard not to, I wanted to stream more, I wanted to run commericials, I wanted to double the streaming requirement. It wasn't hard to do it. You're blowing it way out of the water without even thinking behind it.
TLDR. Went from not making money from streaming, To making money from streaming with a small cut. Not a big deal, Almost expected.
Except surely the point to living there isn't to stream, it's to get better at playing Starcraft. Otherwise why bother?
On September 13 2012 09:16 Sadistx wrote: Wait, so you PAY them 600 euros/month AND you have an obligation to stream 150h AND they take a cut of the stream revenue?
This is bar none the worst deal in e-sports since KESPA stopped treating b-teamers like slave labor. At least b-teamers didn't have to pay the pro-gaming house. I'm actually sitting here laughing at how bad this is.
+food problems +they don't have a housecleaning service How did anyone sign this lol? Whole drama aside, this deal is just laughable.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through.
What if I have a contract in my desk stating you must pay me 100$ every month? Yes it states that. You didn't sign it? Too bad. Now the money please.
Pretty much. Arguments that hinge on the contract binding Fuzer in some way are stupid, because Fuzer wasn't bound by the contract, because he hadn't signed it.
You are blaming MoW for it. Why would Fuzer give them the money without a contract signed? It's the same difference, You're not even thinking from both sides..
EPT
