On September 13 2012 08:28 ilbh wrote: the thing is that they didn't want to give him his money back, they only offered him back when he said he would make it public.
This is the main point of it all i think. If the manager wasn't a dick and gave the money back when the player left the house, this would have been a non isue.
Contracts and recips are there for a reason, they protect people from scumbags without moral values. Fuzer was naive.
Let's say I rent out rooms to people I meet online and out of the ten places I have available the demand is high enough that it's always full. Furthermore, it takes some time to set it up with new people and that's why I ask all of my customers to tell me a month in advance if they want to leave.
Now a guy comes along who gives me a two month payment in advance, after a month and 5 days he tells me he won't sign my contract and would rather leave instead. My room will be most likely empty for the entire month because of set-up times and now that it's suddenly about his money he starts to care and threatens legal action because of something he already got but refused to sign a contract about? I'd probably make sure that I'm not telling this in written but "Oh, whoops, damn, I'd love to pay you your money back but sadly I can't find our signed contract - can you?" sounds like a likely and reasonable answer he'd get after causing a mess for all the time.
Are both sides unprofessional and/or naive? Yeah, sure. Can I think of any similar situation where the guy would actually get his money back? (Think renting a place, a hotel room, a subscription) - Nope. And for good reasons.
Incorrect. He was never given the choice to stay at the house, so it was not his wish to leave. I mean what kind of business refuses to give you a copy of the contract and won't even send it to your lawyer unless he sends you credentials first? It's ridiculous.
If I tell you to "sign my fucking contract or leave my fucking house" you still have a choice. It's not nicely put but it's just the same. That's not forcing you to leave, that's insisting on you finally signing a contract that should have been signed a month ago.
No, they have FORCED him to leave as they were unwilling to clear up his issues with the contract and then demands that he signs it. It's not a choice for any person in their right mind.
Have you ever rented something anywhere?
Try and go to a hotel. Rent a room. Pay them two months in advance. (Hint: Not normal hotel would let you live there without a contract. Let's assume for the sake of argument that they were nice/incompetent/not giving a fuck at that point in time.) After 35 days start arguing about the contract with the climax being "Sign it, or leave".
Well, guess what: If they wouldn't have been nice/incompetent/not giving a fuck in the first place, you wouldn't been able to get a room there in the first place without signing the exact same contract. Delaying it was a pretty stupid idea, yeah, but that doesn't make "sign it or leave it" anything horrible. That's how any agreement works.
when you rent a house you have to sign a contract before you can move in, otherwise cluster fucks like this situation occur, moving in and then asking them to sign the contract after almost 2 months isn't an agreement, it's a cluster fuck
Agree. =P
...which doesn't excuse him trying to get the pitchfork bros over here to work their best work.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks ~~LgNkarmy
What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer?
He was aloud, It was stated they agreed to that but they wanted to see the lawyers license. They never got that and needed it to be signed. Like I said it should have been done before he moved it, but mistakes were made.
Karmy can you quickly tell us how many hours you were supposed to stream per month just because i think the number of 150 seems quite a lot, and if it is correct did nobody complain?
On September 13 2012 08:28 ilbh wrote: the thing is that they didn't want to give him his money back, they only offered him back when he said he would make it public.
This is the main point of it all i think. If the manager wasn't a dick and gave the money back when the player left the house, this would have been a non isue.
Contracts and recips are there for a reason, they protect people from scumbags without moral values. Fuzer was naive.
Let's say I rent out rooms to people I meet online and out of the ten places I have available the demand is high enough that it's always full. Furthermore, it takes some time to set it up with new people and that's why I ask all of my customers to tell me a month in advance if they want to leave.
Now a guy comes along who gives me a two month payment in advance, after a month and 5 days he tells me he won't sign my contract and would rather leave instead. My room will be most likely empty for the entire month because of set-up times and now that it's suddenly about his money he starts to care and threatens legal action because of something he already got but refused to sign a contract about? I'd probably make sure that I'm not telling this in written but "Oh, whoops, damn, I'd love to pay you your money back but sadly I can't find our signed contract - can you?" sounds like a likely and reasonable answer he'd get after causing a mess for all the time.
Are both sides unprofessional and/or naive? Yeah, sure. Can I think of any similar situation where the guy would actually get his money back? (Think renting a place, a hotel room, a subscription) - Nope. And for good reasons.
Incorrect. He was never given the choice to stay at the house, so it was not his wish to leave. I mean what kind of business refuses to give you a copy of the contract and won't even send it to your lawyer unless he sends you credentials first? It's ridiculous.
If I tell you to "sign my fucking contract or leave my fucking house" you still have a choice. It's not nicely put but it's just the same. That's not forcing you to leave, that's insisting on you finally signing a contract that should have been signed a month ago.
What kind of retarded moronic thought is that ? If i am asking you to show the contract to a lawyer, the fucking normal thing is hand a copy no questions asked and not pull a "deadline".
I just think they wanted to kick Fuzer, that's why they pulled that crap, but since they were stupid enough to try it the shady way, instead of being proffesional.... shit like this happens.
Pretty much. Bunch of amateurs trying to run a business and screwing up on all fronts. It should be obvious that if he didn't even sign anything yet you just give him back his money and resolve that shit without anybody getting butthurt. How moronic do you have to be to make statements like the quoted ones when you run a business? It's 600€, not a million. You already behaved unprofessionally, you just freed up a spot and got rid of a guy you apparently wanted to get rid off and you try to make that already upset guy go through the roof by playing it like this? Boy would my company's HR/PR kick your ass.
On September 13 2012 03:52 seanisgrand wrote: 12 players. 7200 euro/mo for rent PLUS a cut of a minimum of 60 hours of their streaming profits DAILY.
Better be feeding them hella good...
oh wait
You're from the U.S. That rent, by U.S. standards, would be atrociously insufficient. Of course, it may be in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, I don't know, but considering the services provided, I would say they could not come even close to covering their costs with 7200 euros per month. It's simply not realistic.
Also, streaming revenue is highly dependent on the player. If you're one of the people with 120 viewers, your streaming revenue is negligible anyways.
MoW is meant to be a business. While I think the 10-year thing is ridiculous if true concerning joining another team, it is completely reasonable in terms of opening a house of their own (assuming it's for-profit).
I would assume streaming revenue couldn't be taken on their "days off" like weekends or whatever as well. The fact food is even supplied at 600 Euros a month, with gas/water, Internet/utilities, and the actual amount of equipment and services provided, is once again, in my eyes, a fucking steal.
I'd bet if they disclosed their financial statements you'd find they'd be operating on a very marginal profit margin. I'd be surprised if they've been able to even recoup their initial total investment, which is most likely leveraged in the first place and thus they'll also have to pay interest.
People that think the costs to the players are ridiculous are people that have absolutely no concept of finances.
Where the hell do you live?
Hi, I'm from NYC and have also lived in Buffalo. Rent with utilities and living expenses are $900 and $500 respectively if you cook. You must be wealthy or... idk. The numbers you're giving out sounds ridiculous really. SOme of the numbers you give make sense, but if you really search around then it's more than possible.
Anyways, if what you say is true for yourself then come here to Buffalo or NYC (which is apparently buttfuck nowhere). haha.
I'm confused. So you calculated them to be around $1,400, and that's most likely for an area without all the amenities that the MoW provides. Also, it many places come unfurnished. MoW comes furnished with a ridiculous amount of assets. So you're comparing $1,400 at a place you're talking about (and that's WITHOUT the food being prepared for you, mind you) to a measely 600 Euros per month? What are you even talking about?
Dude... I currently am living in Buffalo for $500. LOLs.
$300 for rent (furnished too) and $50 for utilities and $150 for food/living expenses (I cook).
I live in Chinatown in Manhattan. I pay rent for about $700 and the food there is cheap actually.
Clear? Sorry if I confused you. But I really have no idea where you got your numbers from. If that's your life then come to Buffalo or something.
$300 for rent in a furnished place would be very low for a city, but I have no idea what type of city Buffalo is, or if you're located in a decently crime free area. You're telling me that $50 will cover your Internet, cable, water, electric + gas bill, garbage fee? If so, then yes, I have highly underestimated these costs.
Your $150 assessment is entirely irrelevant because they are providing a food service, and because they chose to do so, must be included in the cost assessment. Whether or not the people staying in the MoW utilize it is irrelevant if the service is provided.
I have personally lived in a wide variety of situations, from spending $375 per month to split a room with 2 other people, to living in a makeshift room sectioned of by bookshelves with another person for $250 a month where my bed didn't even fit in the room completely and had to tucked under the other bed, to $540 a month for my own room in a much less populated area, to now spending $922 per month for a master bedroom of my own. Of course, I am aware that $922 is far more than most people spend, that was more so to just respond to your question of "where do you live."
Well, to be fair, it's not just Buffalo (admittedly certain parts are crime-ridden, though not where I live), it's also Amherst (safest town in NY), Orchard Park, and the Niagara region in general if you look for a 4 bedroom apartment and split it with people. (SPECIFICALLY at least 4 bedroom). Which most single people here do.
And besides, even if I'm wrong about the $150 assessment, listen to the Europeans telling you you're wrong at least... I don't know what else to say.
And I guess you feel obligated to say you've had a wide range of living arrangements as well. So I'll say this, I've done all of that (minus the bed because you should just have bought a sleeping bag) for cheaper plus a few days of sleeping in a campus library.
Despite me once again in my original post talking about cost of living in the U.S., cost of living in Europe (overall, not Poland) is still higher than the U.S.
NYC is also has the highest cost of living in the entire United States, so if you were truly living off $900, it was probably in a living situation not even remotely comparable to the one described, or you were living in a sketchy ass area.
Average rent in Manhattan is over $3,000 per month. Average rent in NYC is $1,100. People always use their personal anecdotes instead of averages. Like the guy who said "oh I live in a big city in Sweden and rent is like 350 Euros." Well according to http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Sweden it's 638 Euros in a city and 437 if you don't live in the city. Almost twice the price he stated. Using the same website, it states the average cost of rent in Poland is 342 Euros per month. Assuming you eat a minimum of 100 Euros per month in food, they have an average of 83 Euros per month in utilities, and 14 euros per month in Internet, we're at 539 Euros per month! And wait, there's gym equipment? Housecleaning services? Top quality computers capable of streaming?
Boo fucking hoo people. Their terms don't sound remotely outrageous at all.
For the last time, I'm very surprised to find Poland's wages are like less than ~20% of Denmarks wages according to someone else in this thread (stated it was just about 12,000 Euros per year), so yes, I did underestimate that, but considering the costs itself still aren't exorbitant as a shit ton of people in this thread have stated for a more average place, I don't understand the backlash against the MoW.
However, their official statement I just read was utterly retarded and didn't address anything. I'm confused.
On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote: We didn't wanted to start the flame war but to complete this in civilized manner. Fuzer was reprimanded more than 10 times, about cleaning his room, keeping the gaming room clean, nothing helped. We have decided that we will sign the contract as soon as possible so we can enforce the house rules on him, but he declined. He declined second time.
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day.
Streaming ad-revenue: Thanks to strategic partnership with Twitch, players living in the house still can earn more money from ad-revenue than they normally could, Fuzer didn't even had any partnership before that.
150 hours per month is 5 hours a day....
Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Meh both parties are handling this like 13 year olds seriously .. this is just plain pathetic, I don't even care who's in the right or wrong anymore because reading " He didn't keep his room clean " and " I want war " just makes me cringe
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks ~~LgNkarmy
What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer?
He was aloud, It was stated they agreed to that but they wanted to see the lawyers license. They never got that and needed it to be signed. Like I said it should have been done before he moved it, but mistakes were made.
And then they forced him out not giving Fuzer time to get those papers? And why the fuck would they even require something like that.
Because it's a contract and NDA that they would like to keep confidential from eyes that don't have to see it. A lawyer has to keep it confidential.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Wait, so you PAY them 600 euros/month AND you have an obligation to stream 150h AND they take a cut of the stream revenue?
This is bar none the worst deal in e-sports since KESPA stopped treating b-teamers like slave labor. At least b-teamers didn't have to pay the pro-gaming house. I'm actually sitting here laughing at how bad this is.
If you think you need to pay someone 600 euros/month to become better at the game, you'll never ever ever become good enough at this game to recoup your 'coaching' costs, unless your sponsor pays this money for you, in which case I'm wondering why did someone decide to sponsor you if you need this much coaching?
Karmy's post seems to have cleared a lot of this up, thanks.
There are a few unresolved things, though, like not letting his lawyer look at it(?), but overall the big picture has become a lot clearer. Obviously it was the fault of both parties from the beginning, but really, it's pitchforks-down not as serious or twisted a scenario it appeared to be at first, I think. ragz does bring up a few other points as well, though.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks ~~LgNkarmy
What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer?
He was aloud, It was stated they agreed to that but they wanted to see the lawyers license. They never got that and needed it to be signed. Like I said it should have been done before he moved it, but mistakes were made.
Karmy can you quickly tell us how many hours you were supposed to stream per month just because i think the number of 150 seems quite a lot, and if it is correct did nobody complain?
100 when I lived there. Which we all agreed on, It may have changed.
On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote: We didn't wanted to start the flame war but to complete this in civilized manner. Fuzer was reprimanded more than 10 times, about cleaning his room, keeping the gaming room clean, nothing helped. We have decided that we will sign the contract as soon as possible so we can enforce the house rules on him, but he declined. He declined second time.
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day.
Streaming ad-revenue: Thanks to strategic partnership with Twitch, players living in the house still can earn more money from ad-revenue than they normally could, Fuzer didn't even had any partnership before that.
150 hours per month is 5 hours a day....
Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
sounds a little bit like that eclypsia contract, but i can't remember if it was that DOTA team or desrwo/scarlett/ ... name forgotten
Its quite common to have some must-do streaming in contract like normally around 8hours a week or 40hours a month
On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote: We didn't wanted to start the flame war but to complete this in civilized manner. Fuzer was reprimanded more than 10 times, about cleaning his room, keeping the gaming room clean, nothing helped. We have decided that we will sign the contract as soon as possible so we can enforce the house rules on him, but he declined. He declined second time.
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day.
Streaming ad-revenue: Thanks to strategic partnership with Twitch, players living in the house still can earn more money from ad-revenue than they normally could, Fuzer didn't even had any partnership before that.
150 hours per month is 5 hours a day....
Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
We never streamed for 8 hours a day. It was a set amount per month. So you could not stream monday and stream all day saturday/sunday and be fine, You can break it up throughout the week. It wasn't set per day.
150 hr a month is like a full time job (170hr / month on average). Also streaming is not training. Just look at all the top streamer on TL and see where that got them (hint, not better).
Ouch! But true. But we all know they stream for the moonays, so having MoW players stream so frequently is just another way to make even more sums of money on top of the inflated rent.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks ~~LgNkarmy
What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer?
He was aloud, It was stated they agreed to that but they wanted to see the lawyers license. They never got that and needed it to be signed. Like I said it should have been done before he moved it, but mistakes were made.
And then they forced him out not giving Fuzer time to get those papers? And why the fuck would they even require something like that.
Because it's a contract and NDA that they would like to keep confidential from eyes that don't have to see it. A lawyer has to keep it confidential.
That should be in the OP as well so that topic stops coming up. =P
MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA.
Gotta say from the skype log you're not being profesional with the discussion, tbh you come out more like a kid than anything else. And with previous behavior, stream cheating and so on and acting like a kid on other poeples stream chats...
On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote: This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all. Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW.
LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams.
10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document.
On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote: MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA.
On September 13 2012 08:28 ilbh wrote: the thing is that they didn't want to give him his money back, they only offered him back when he said he would make it public.
This is the main point of it all i think. If the manager wasn't a dick and gave the money back when the player left the house, this would have been a non isue.
Contracts and recips are there for a reason, they protect people from scumbags without moral values. Fuzer was naive.
Let's say I rent out rooms to people I meet online and out of the ten places I have available the demand is high enough that it's always full. Furthermore, it takes some time to set it up with new people and that's why I ask all of my customers to tell me a month in advance if they want to leave.
Now a guy comes along who gives me a two month payment in advance, after a month and 5 days he tells me he won't sign my contract and would rather leave instead. My room will be most likely empty for the entire month because of set-up times and now that it's suddenly about his money he starts to care and threatens legal action because of something he already got but refused to sign a contract about? I'd probably make sure that I'm not telling this in written but "Oh, whoops, damn, I'd love to pay you your money back but sadly I can't find our signed contract - can you?" sounds like a likely and reasonable answer he'd get after causing a mess for all the time.
Are both sides unprofessional and/or naive? Yeah, sure. Can I think of any similar situation where the guy would actually get his money back? (Think renting a place, a hotel room, a subscription) - Nope. And for good reasons.
Incorrect. He was never given the choice to stay at the house, so it was not his wish to leave. I mean what kind of business refuses to give you a copy of the contract and won't even send it to your lawyer unless he sends you credentials first? It's ridiculous.
If I tell you to "sign my fucking contract or leave my fucking house" you still have a choice. It's not nicely put but it's just the same. That's not forcing you to leave, that's insisting on you finally signing a contract that should have been signed a month ago.
No, they have FORCED him to leave as they were unwilling to clear up his issues with the contract and then demands that he signs it. It's not a choice for any person in their right mind.
Have you ever rented something anywhere?
Try and go to a hotel. Rent a room. Pay them two months in advance. (Hint: Not normal hotel would let you live there without a contract. Let's assume for the sake of argument that they were nice/incompetent/not giving a fuck at that point in time.) After 35 days start arguing about the contract with the climax being "Sign it, or leave".
Well, guess what: If they wouldn't have been nice/incompetent/not giving a fuck in the first place, you wouldn't been able to get a room there in the first place without signing the exact same contract. Delaying it was a pretty stupid idea, yeah, but that doesn't make "sign it or leave it" anything horrible. That's how any agreement works.
As I understand it, they did not start arguing at the very last day. This has been going on for a long time, probably since he joined the house. It's nothing horrible but it's incredibly unprofessional.
On September 13 2012 09:03 LgNkarmy wrote: Okay guys I want to clear a few things. As some of you know I also lived in Ministry of Win. I was one of the first players to move into the house, roughly a week after they opened their doors to the public. I want to just add my opinion and my experience. While living in the MoW house there were obvious errors due to inexperience, It happens. The house is still new, the whole concept of the house is new, They're doing everything on their own. They don't have another pro house to get tips from, They have to trial and error everything themselves. Mistakes are going to happen.
With that said, The contract was a bit confusing at first but they gave everyone in the house a full day to sit down together and point out what we didn't like and what we wanted to change. They were very receptive to our changes. Everything we weren't comfortable with they changed, and if we didn't understand something they clarified it. I had no problems with the contract after we all re-worked it. Players saying the NDA are keeping them from not saying anything isn't true. The NDA never said anything about not talking badly about MoW or talking about what happened within the house. They just want to make sure that we don't tell out company secrets to competitors since they were the first of this type of gaming house, It was just to cover themselves. It was all understood, It was to keep company secrets since everyone living in the house had exposure to how the entire house ran.
The food was an issue, At the time I was living there I thought we were eating quiet healthy, but at the same time it was only 9 people total to cook for. You have to realise that cooking for 12+ players and staff, It's hard to prepare fish and salads for every meal, and it's nearly impossible to have "perfect amount" of food. If they cook to much then they lose money from throwing it out, If they don't cook enough players complain. It's a really rough balance. Even when the meals weren't that big, We had access to pieces of bread with various spreads, bowls of cereal at any time of the day, and other left overs if there are any. Once again the project and house is still new so give them time to work out the kinks.
As for them owing Fuzer money, It does state that we are to pay for the entire month even if we leave half way through. They have to plan and buy/prepare for an entire month so to get a refund after they already spent the money planning on you living in the house, isn't really fair to ask for. It sucks Fuzer couldn't get a refund, especially since he didn't sign the contract yet, but at the same time MoW is a business and they have to plan around having the proper income to sustain the house. This was poorly handled all over, Mistakes were clearly made. Once again the project is new, I doubt they'll ever allow a player to move in before signing a contract.
Overall my time in MoW was fantastic. We had a very well set schedule as far as eating/practising. We would eat the same time every day, and practice the same time every day. Matiz was a amazing coach, He was very helpful to help find us new builds and then finding us players to practice it with. The practice was regulated, It was up to the players to make sure it was efficient. He was there for assistance, He asked on a daily basis if anyone wanted help, And he would go out of his way to make sure we were taken care of. Same with the work out schedule, Me snute and Cyto were the only players who used the gym while we lived there, We didn't need a work out schedule. If you want to work out do it, If not practice. They can't hold your hand for everything. Even in a korean team house, The coach does what he can to guide you and make sure you're on track with practice, but if you're not playing efficiently then it's your own fault.
So please lower your pitch forks. Once again the project is still new, Mistakes will be made and mistakes have been made. Was my entire experience perfect? No I had a few times of drama, but it was cleared up. Just try to see it from both sides, and remember this is still a business.
Thanks ~~LgNkarmy
What about the part where Fuzer wasnt allowed to show the contract to his lawyer?
He was aloud, It was stated they agreed to that but they wanted to see the lawyers license. They never got that and needed it to be signed. Like I said it should have been done before he moved it, but mistakes were made.
Karmy can you quickly tell us how many hours you were supposed to stream per month just because i think the number of 150 seems quite a lot, and if it is correct did nobody complain?
100 when I lived there. Which we all agreed on, It may have changed.
THanks and 100 also seems much more reasonable (even though, especially if you are good enough to get stream sniped, it seems like 100 hours of wasted practice)
On September 13 2012 08:50 Noobity wrote: The vast majority, vast vast vast vast majority of posts in this thread are so ridiculous.
First of all this is he said-she said until we have documentation of everything. The only reason most of you are on Fuzer's side is because he came out and said something first. That doesn't make him right, simply means that he provided the first information.
Knowing full well the way MoW advertises on this site, I understand fully that their PR isn't stellar. It isn't bad, it's simply not good. That being said, yes things will be left out of statements. Does it mean they're being hidden? No. Why would they say anything at all about parties going on in the house if a) they didn't realize it was a problem at first and b) when it was brought up they ceased?
The posts of chat transcripts are all completely worthless excerpts of bits and pieces of a chat that are going to be dissected to support the position of whoever is posting them. "You owe me money!" "No we don't, I have no record of you paying us! you get nothing, see how things work when you don't do what's expected?!" could very well be the middle of a chat where "This place is a shithole and you are all a bunch of dickheads. You owe me money!" is followed by "No we don't, I have no record of you paying us! you get nothing, see how things work when you don't do what's expected?! We just want to resolve this issue, and I think if you sign the documents we can put the whole thing behind us and you can move back in. We'll even go over it with you face to face if you'd like." See how possible context can change entirely how the conversation flows?
Is there an issue with food? Maybe, that's something those with cooler heads would be better able to tell us.
Is the streaming schedule poor? Not in the least. If you're paying to live in a house that is designed specifically to be a video game training facility, you should be playing more than you would normally. 5 hours per day is really not a big deal, and don't give me that "you're not a pro-gamer, you don't know" bull either. 5 hours of ladder, or some ladder some analysis, or hell Ret could spend 5 hours teaching Pandi a couple builds and it would all be useful and probably fit their requirement. Look at a player like Destiny, who streams on average what, 6-8 hours a day? Does he practice off stream? Probably, probably a lot. Put in an 8 hour streaming day 5 days a week, take the weekends off from streaming. There are tons of ways to go about hitting this mark.
Maybe the creation of a team house for 10 years is a bit much, for instance my non-compete is 3 years, and that's for a multi-million dollar business, but how many of these players plan to create a team house? And even then, while the non-compete is there, I doubt MoW would pass up an opportunity to be a part of a team house possibly created by one of the players that got ideas from the Warsaw house (say Ret decides he wants to make a similar house in the netherlands. Speaking to the MoW guys, decide to make it "Ret's Ministry of Win Netherlands Branch and Team Liquid Headquarters" for instance would probably not be a problem in the slightest).
The thing to get out of this the most is that we're all speaking on stuff we don't know about entirely. This was an experimental house set up in the hopes of supporting and growing international eSports and you're taking it like they're this evil conglomerate out to fuck over one guy out of 600 euros.
MoW, step your PR game up, and be more open with stuff. Submit complete evidence showing that you acted reasonably and let the community decide what they'll believe at that point.
Fuzer, post more evidence before you go bashing anyone for anything, you haven't posted enough for logical thinkers to make an opinion either way.
Neither group is helping each other by putting forth these silly posts back and forth arguing on a public forum about the situation.
Finally, community: Calm the fuck down. How many times are we going to completely fucking overreact before we realize that it helps nobody.
100% agree.
MoW may not have good PR or overall experience dealing with highly demanding SC2 community, but that doesn't mean they are retards or criminals... Don't forget that their project is ideal for promoting e-sports and helping players to focus on training.
I agree that it's a bit shady from their side but it's still very good place to practice and promote players and SC2.
As for Fuzer. I've watched his stream and came to the conclusion that he's a douche and doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything. I'm not suprised that it came to what has happened between MoW and him.
MoW and Fuzer acted irresponsibly. I hope it will be resolved in a positive manner so MoW can continue their project and promote e-sports and from now on do it more professionally.
EPT
(even though, especially if you are good enough to get stream sniped, it seems like 100 hours of wasted practice)
