|
On September 03 2012 01:21 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:57 one-one-one wrote:On September 02 2012 23:57 Shiori wrote:On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY! I want to believe. If this is true: fucking FINALLY! Name one unit the infestor is not good against. I doubt there is one, maybe the anti-caster unit ghost. The infestor got to keep all its imba shit because it was needed - zergs would just die otherwise. Now zergs seem to do just fine and maybe a bit more. Nerfing the infestor is a much better thing than to change raven speed an acceleration. The stun basically makes the 9-range, 75 energy aoe instant effect spell able to stack by casting chain fungals. Compare this to the 125 energy, 6-range slow missile HSM. If fungal stuns, then at the very least HSM could be reduced to 100 energy so that a full energy raven can cast 2 missiles. Either this change or a HSM speed buff could be warranted. Faster HSM would make the game harder for the opponents since it would introduce more in-battle micro for splitting your clumped units up. Terran already has to do micro like this vs AOE like storm,fungal or tanks . But if stun is removed a lot is changed. Maybe then the raven needs no tweaking at all. The anti-micro spells fungal and forcefields have always made me feel that a big amount of fun is taken out of the game with them. At least terran has semi-good measures vs forcefields with medivac lifts, ghosts, long range tanks and sometimes even thors  I am more worried about zergs as their only way of breaking a cast forcefield is with a T3 ultra. I have seen so many games turn into an auto-win for the protoss because the zerg let up the control of a ramp for a second only to have it blocked indefinitely by forcefields. Frustrating things like these are what makes me enjoy the game less, while it makes less fanatic Sc2 fans stop playing the game completely. If they removed fungal stun, made forcefields destroyable and tweaked blink so that it requires a unit that is actually on the high ground itself to be able to blink up then Blizzard would have a more fun game to play. Surely high level pros can remedy these things, but for me who is never gonna make even GM it just ruins the fun. I am not kidding, if a protoss scouts your 1 rax expand they will 75% of the time go for 4 gate blink stalker all in. It is insanely hard to hold even if scouted as it is possible to put the observer so that it gives enough vision for blink but is too far away for marines to snipe it. It's not, sorry
That's a giant poop-on-a-stick 
Com'on, Infestors need a nerfin 
|
On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY!
Are you sure he didn't mean that it's being considered for HotS?
Doesn't sound like something that would go through in WoL if 10% raven speed increase was too extreme.
And if all NA teams were informed why would Demuslim need a friend on other team tell him that?
|
On September 03 2012 02:18 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:11 NewbieOne wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff. I see the problem of maps vs balance being raised more and more. Personally, I'm of the belief that fixing numbers can fix balance only to a limited extent, while win ratio statistics provide only limited evidence. I think the problem is that if you tweak the map too much in order to balance a certain match up, then an other match up could be ruined. Like if you get a map with 50-50 winratio for TvZ, then maybe it could make the winrate be 70-30 in TvP, just as an example.
That's true. Another example: the snipe nerf was justified with a minor problem in TvZ late-game. Not a word about the effect on TvP, where it was, at the time, the core part of dealing with zealot/archon compositions, which are simplistic and extremely potent even when simply a-moved as one big ball. This is not to say that Blizzard hadn't tested the nerf out in TvP but it certainly didn't say a word about that match-up.
I believe we should have different maps for different matchups if blizzard can't deal with balance properly.
That might be a way for tournaments that aren't affiliated with Blizzard. Doing so would also make a massive statement that Blizzard would be unable to ignore without taking a PR hit.
If it were to prove that maps dictate a lot, that would beg questions of race design. I have no doubt that balancing three sufficiently non-repetitive races is hard work, also on the conceptual side, not only the analytical number crunching. But part of the problem is the community pressure to act like everything is balanced (which competes with a currently strong trend to speak out and the simple "whining/QQ" has never died).
I'm not sure but part of the problem may be how the game is formulaic, prone to fixed sequential stages, with huge emphasis on counters and responses (he drones hard, I get hellions, he gets roaches, I get tanks, he gets broodlords, I get vikings, he goes ultras). That kind of thing can be difficult to balance properly when the races are so different from each other and the balance isn't symmetrical.
Also with HotS coming up, it will have chaotic balance and everything gonna be unbalanced unless blizzard somehow magically fixes all the abuseful and imbalanced strategies in beta while also having the players achieve a metagame with balanced winrates.
I worry that the metagame may lead to formulaic prescribed builds and sometimes mathematical analyses. Number crunching to detect imbalance and use it to one's favour, then response from the balance team. After that response imba is removed but the balance of other things is upset, leading to the need for more interventions etc. But I am sounding a little too defeatist at this point. Maybe we should all really smile and keep playing.
Though, from my experience and watching tournaments. I saw that mech has a lot of potential in TvZ and I feel that those players who are struggling in TvZ aren't using mech correctly and have suboptimal mech openers. Maybe the terrans really need to just adapt and improve instead of getting buffed.
I'm a fairly low level player but I use a custom mech build that I adapt a lot. TvZ is my best matchup, I think. Not so when I play marine-tank.
On September 03 2012 02:41 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends.
Thank you for the perspective. It's always a good thing to be reminded that one's own race also has strengths that are hard to deal with for the other races and may appear imbalanced from that perspective. But how about using something else than zerglings for some of the tasks you mentioned?
|
On September 03 2012 04:02 NewbieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:18 Adonminus wrote:On September 03 2012 02:11 NewbieOne wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff. I see the problem of maps vs balance being raised more and more. Personally, I'm of the belief that fixing numbers can fix balance only to a limited extent, while win ratio statistics provide only limited evidence. I think the problem is that if you tweak the map too much in order to balance a certain match up, then an other match up could be ruined. Like if you get a map with 50-50 winratio for TvZ, then maybe it could make the winrate be 70-30 in TvP, just as an example. That's true. Another example: the snipe nerf was justified with a minor problem in TvZ late-game. Not a word about the effect on TvP, where it was, at the time, the core part of dealing with zealot/archon compositions, which are simplistic and extremely potent even when simply a-moved as one big ball. This is not to say that Blizzard hadn't tested the nerf out in TvP but it certainly didn't say a word about that match-up. Show nested quote +I believe we should have different maps for different matchups if blizzard can't deal with balance properly. That might be a way for tournaments that aren't affiliated with Blizzard. Doing so would also make a massive statement that Blizzard would be unable to ignore without taking a PR hit. If it were to prove that maps dictate a lot, that would beg questions of race design. I have no doubt that balancing three sufficiently non-repetitive races is hard work, also on the conceptual side, not only the analytical number crunching. But part of the problem is the community pressure to act like everything is balanced (which competes with a currently strong trend to speak out and the simple "whining/QQ" has never died). I'm not sure but part of the problem may be how the game is formulaic, prone to fixed sequential stages, with huge emphasis on counters and responses (he drones hard, I get hellions, he gets roaches, I get tanks, he gets broodlords, I get vikings, he goes ultras). That kind of thing can be difficult to balance properly when the races are so different from each other and the balance isn't symmetrical. Show nested quote +Also with HotS coming up, it will have chaotic balance and everything gonna be unbalanced unless blizzard somehow magically fixes all the abuseful and imbalanced strategies in beta while also having the players achieve a metagame with balanced winrates. I worry that the metagame may lead to formulaic prescribed builds and sometimes mathematical analyses. Number crunching to detect imbalance and use it to one's favour, then response from the balance team. After that response imba is removed but the balance of other things is upset, leading to the need for more interventions etc. But I am sounding a little too defeatist at this point. Maybe we should all really smile and keep playing. Show nested quote +Though, from my experience and watching tournaments. I saw that mech has a lot of potential in TvZ and I feel that those players who are struggling in TvZ aren't using mech correctly and have suboptimal mech openers. Maybe the terrans really need to just adapt and improve instead of getting buffed. I'm a fairly low level player but I use a custom mech build that I adapt a lot. TvZ is my best matchup, I think. Not so when I play marine-tank. Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:41 Sein wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. Thank you for the perspective. It's always a good thing to be reminded that one's own race also has strengths that are hard to deal with for the other races and may appear imbalanced from that perspective. But how about using something else than zerglings for some of the tasks you mentioned?
hahahha the zergling part at the end made me laugh so hard :-D
|
hi guys, sorry for being notorious, but i'd like some votes from the other side of the planet, peace
Poll: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pickI am Terran and pick Zerg (89) 42% I am Zerg and pick Terran (31) 15% I am Terran and pick Protoss (24) 11% I am Protoss and pick Zerg (24) 11% I am Zerg and pick Protoss (23) 11% I am Protoss and pick Terran (22) 10% 213 total votes Your vote: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick (Vote): I am Zerg and pick Terran
(Vote): I am Zerg and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Terran
|
On September 03 2012 04:53 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:hi guys, sorry for being notorious, but i'd like some votes from the other side of the planet, peace Poll: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pickI am Terran and pick Zerg (89) 42% I am Zerg and pick Terran (31) 15% I am Terran and pick Protoss (24) 11% I am Protoss and pick Zerg (24) 11% I am Zerg and pick Protoss (23) 11% I am Protoss and pick Terran (22) 10% 213 total votes Your vote: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick (Vote): I am Zerg and pick Terran
(Vote): I am Zerg and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Terran
where's I'm random and..
|
On September 03 2012 04:02 NewbieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:18 Adonminus wrote:On September 03 2012 02:11 NewbieOne wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff. I see the problem of maps vs balance being raised more and more. Personally, I'm of the belief that fixing numbers can fix balance only to a limited extent, while win ratio statistics provide only limited evidence. I think the problem is that if you tweak the map too much in order to balance a certain match up, then an other match up could be ruined. Like if you get a map with 50-50 winratio for TvZ, then maybe it could make the winrate be 70-30 in TvP, just as an example. That's true. Another example: the snipe nerf was justified with a minor problem in TvZ late-game. Not a word about the effect on TvP, where it was, at the time, the core part of dealing with zealot/archon compositions, which are simplistic and extremely potent even when simply a-moved as one big ball. This is not to say that Blizzard hadn't tested the nerf out in TvP but it certainly didn't say a word about that match-up. Show nested quote +I believe we should have different maps for different matchups if blizzard can't deal with balance properly. That might be a way for tournaments that aren't affiliated with Blizzard. Doing so would also make a massive statement that Blizzard would be unable to ignore without taking a PR hit. If it were to prove that maps dictate a lot, that would beg questions of race design. I have no doubt that balancing three sufficiently non-repetitive races is hard work, also on the conceptual side, not only the analytical number crunching. But part of the problem is the community pressure to act like everything is balanced (which competes with a currently strong trend to speak out and the simple "whining/QQ" has never died). I'm not sure but part of the problem may be how the game is formulaic, prone to fixed sequential stages, with huge emphasis on counters and responses (he drones hard, I get hellions, he gets roaches, I get tanks, he gets broodlords, I get vikings, he goes ultras). That kind of thing can be difficult to balance properly when the races are so different from each other and the balance isn't symmetrical. Show nested quote +Also with HotS coming up, it will have chaotic balance and everything gonna be unbalanced unless blizzard somehow magically fixes all the abuseful and imbalanced strategies in beta while also having the players achieve a metagame with balanced winrates. I worry that the metagame may lead to formulaic prescribed builds and sometimes mathematical analyses. Number crunching to detect imbalance and use it to one's favour, then response from the balance team. After that response imba is removed but the balance of other things is upset, leading to the need for more interventions etc. But I am sounding a little too defeatist at this point. Maybe we should all really smile and keep playing. Show nested quote +Though, from my experience and watching tournaments. I saw that mech has a lot of potential in TvZ and I feel that those players who are struggling in TvZ aren't using mech correctly and have suboptimal mech openers. Maybe the terrans really need to just adapt and improve instead of getting buffed. I'm a fairly low level player but I use a custom mech build that I adapt a lot. TvZ is my best matchup, I think. Not so when I play marine-tank. Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:41 Sein wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. Thank you for the perspective. It's always a good thing to be reminded that one's own race also has strengths that are hard to deal with for the other races and may appear imbalanced from that perspective. But how about using something else than zerglings for some of the tasks you mentioned?
Snipe nerf was completely irrelevant for tvp.
|
As long as they nerf terran im oky with zerg fucking both toss and terran.
Terran need some more nerfing in my honest opinion and i am glad they didn't went on with the change, the race dominated way too much for 2 full years.
User was warned for this post
|
On September 03 2012 05:23 Aterons_toss wrote:
As long as they nerf terran im oky with zerg fucking both toss and terran.
Terran need some more nerfing in my honest opinion and i am glad they didn't went on with the change, the race dominated way too much for 2 full years.
What is imbalanced about terran.....
|
On September 03 2012 05:29 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 05:23 Aterons_toss wrote:
As long as they nerf terran im oky with zerg fucking both toss and terran.
Terran need some more nerfing in my honest opinion and i am glad they didn't went on with the change, the race dominated way too much for 2 full years. What is imbalanced about terran.....
As you should know, two wrongs usually make a right, and Terran deserves to be horribly UP as compensation for being a bit too good on horrible maps two years ago.
|
On September 03 2012 05:01 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 04:53 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:hi guys, sorry for being notorious, but i'd like some votes from the other side of the planet, peace Poll: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pickI am Terran and pick Zerg (89) 42% I am Zerg and pick Terran (31) 15% I am Terran and pick Protoss (24) 11% I am Protoss and pick Zerg (24) 11% I am Zerg and pick Protoss (23) 11% I am Protoss and pick Terran (22) 10% 213 total votes Your vote: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick (Vote): I am Zerg and pick Terran
(Vote): I am Zerg and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Terran
where's I'm random and..
I'm Random and I don't play at all. That's the only offrace for Random, right?
In any case, this poll is silly. I'd choose Zerg not because I think Zerg is stronger, but because I've actually got some practice in with Zerg. Hey, Mutas are fun. How much does this say about the balance of TvZ? Nothing at all.
|
On September 03 2012 03:27 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:41 Sein wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. It'd be best if overlords just spawned banelings instead of dropping creep. To address those problems you mentioned, these banelings should hit nearby airunits upon spawning, so poor Z could handle those mean drops. Make it autocast too, so you can have a nice flying minefield around your bases. Oh and move it from lair-tech to hatch-tech, anything less would be a joke, ofc. Actually overlords look like old anti-aircraft ballons. It would be funny if they exploded on collision :D.
|
On September 03 2012 05:15 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 04:02 NewbieOne wrote:On September 03 2012 02:18 Adonminus wrote:On September 03 2012 02:11 NewbieOne wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff. I see the problem of maps vs balance being raised more and more. Personally, I'm of the belief that fixing numbers can fix balance only to a limited extent, while win ratio statistics provide only limited evidence. I think the problem is that if you tweak the map too much in order to balance a certain match up, then an other match up could be ruined. Like if you get a map with 50-50 winratio for TvZ, then maybe it could make the winrate be 70-30 in TvP, just as an example. That's true. Another example: the snipe nerf was justified with a minor problem in TvZ late-game. Not a word about the effect on TvP, where it was, at the time, the core part of dealing with zealot/archon compositions, which are simplistic and extremely potent even when simply a-moved as one big ball. This is not to say that Blizzard hadn't tested the nerf out in TvP but it certainly didn't say a word about that match-up. I believe we should have different maps for different matchups if blizzard can't deal with balance properly. That might be a way for tournaments that aren't affiliated with Blizzard. Doing so would also make a massive statement that Blizzard would be unable to ignore without taking a PR hit. If it were to prove that maps dictate a lot, that would beg questions of race design. I have no doubt that balancing three sufficiently non-repetitive races is hard work, also on the conceptual side, not only the analytical number crunching. But part of the problem is the community pressure to act like everything is balanced (which competes with a currently strong trend to speak out and the simple "whining/QQ" has never died). I'm not sure but part of the problem may be how the game is formulaic, prone to fixed sequential stages, with huge emphasis on counters and responses (he drones hard, I get hellions, he gets roaches, I get tanks, he gets broodlords, I get vikings, he goes ultras). That kind of thing can be difficult to balance properly when the races are so different from each other and the balance isn't symmetrical. Also with HotS coming up, it will have chaotic balance and everything gonna be unbalanced unless blizzard somehow magically fixes all the abuseful and imbalanced strategies in beta while also having the players achieve a metagame with balanced winrates. I worry that the metagame may lead to formulaic prescribed builds and sometimes mathematical analyses. Number crunching to detect imbalance and use it to one's favour, then response from the balance team. After that response imba is removed but the balance of other things is upset, leading to the need for more interventions etc. But I am sounding a little too defeatist at this point. Maybe we should all really smile and keep playing. Though, from my experience and watching tournaments. I saw that mech has a lot of potential in TvZ and I feel that those players who are struggling in TvZ aren't using mech correctly and have suboptimal mech openers. Maybe the terrans really need to just adapt and improve instead of getting buffed. I'm a fairly low level player but I use a custom mech build that I adapt a lot. TvZ is my best matchup, I think. Not so when I play marine-tank. On September 03 2012 02:41 Sein wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. Thank you for the perspective. It's always a good thing to be reminded that one's own race also has strengths that are hard to deal with for the other races and may appear imbalanced from that perspective. But how about using something else than zerglings for some of the tasks you mentioned? Snipe nerf was completely irrelevant for tvp.
Wrong, it helped to use Snipe on Zealots after High Templars had been taken care of.
|
On September 03 2012 05:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 05:15 Hider wrote:On September 03 2012 04:02 NewbieOne wrote:On September 03 2012 02:18 Adonminus wrote:On September 03 2012 02:11 NewbieOne wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff. I see the problem of maps vs balance being raised more and more. Personally, I'm of the belief that fixing numbers can fix balance only to a limited extent, while win ratio statistics provide only limited evidence. I think the problem is that if you tweak the map too much in order to balance a certain match up, then an other match up could be ruined. Like if you get a map with 50-50 winratio for TvZ, then maybe it could make the winrate be 70-30 in TvP, just as an example. That's true. Another example: the snipe nerf was justified with a minor problem in TvZ late-game. Not a word about the effect on TvP, where it was, at the time, the core part of dealing with zealot/archon compositions, which are simplistic and extremely potent even when simply a-moved as one big ball. This is not to say that Blizzard hadn't tested the nerf out in TvP but it certainly didn't say a word about that match-up. I believe we should have different maps for different matchups if blizzard can't deal with balance properly. That might be a way for tournaments that aren't affiliated with Blizzard. Doing so would also make a massive statement that Blizzard would be unable to ignore without taking a PR hit. If it were to prove that maps dictate a lot, that would beg questions of race design. I have no doubt that balancing three sufficiently non-repetitive races is hard work, also on the conceptual side, not only the analytical number crunching. But part of the problem is the community pressure to act like everything is balanced (which competes with a currently strong trend to speak out and the simple "whining/QQ" has never died). I'm not sure but part of the problem may be how the game is formulaic, prone to fixed sequential stages, with huge emphasis on counters and responses (he drones hard, I get hellions, he gets roaches, I get tanks, he gets broodlords, I get vikings, he goes ultras). That kind of thing can be difficult to balance properly when the races are so different from each other and the balance isn't symmetrical. Also with HotS coming up, it will have chaotic balance and everything gonna be unbalanced unless blizzard somehow magically fixes all the abuseful and imbalanced strategies in beta while also having the players achieve a metagame with balanced winrates. I worry that the metagame may lead to formulaic prescribed builds and sometimes mathematical analyses. Number crunching to detect imbalance and use it to one's favour, then response from the balance team. After that response imba is removed but the balance of other things is upset, leading to the need for more interventions etc. But I am sounding a little too defeatist at this point. Maybe we should all really smile and keep playing. Though, from my experience and watching tournaments. I saw that mech has a lot of potential in TvZ and I feel that those players who are struggling in TvZ aren't using mech correctly and have suboptimal mech openers. Maybe the terrans really need to just adapt and improve instead of getting buffed. I'm a fairly low level player but I use a custom mech build that I adapt a lot. TvZ is my best matchup, I think. Not so when I play marine-tank. On September 03 2012 02:41 Sein wrote:On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. Thank you for the perspective. It's always a good thing to be reminded that one's own race also has strengths that are hard to deal with for the other races and may appear imbalanced from that perspective. But how about using something else than zerglings for some of the tasks you mentioned? Snipe nerf was completely irrelevant for tvp. Wrong, it helped to use Snipe on Zealots after High Templars had been taken care of.
This is one of those situations where Terrans just made use of what they had. It's the equivalent of morphing HTs into archons after being EMPd. The hope is that, by doing something instead of nothing, you'll change the tide of battle. It's not because they think it is THE way to counter the army.
|
On September 01 2012 01:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 01:17 Zelniq wrote:We feel that at this time, we should give players more opportunities to fully explore the slowly-shifting meta-game before we change the balance of the game. Wish they just did this all the time.. players, most of the time will figure out ways to deal with any problems and on some occasions Blizzard should have just waited longer before making changes The maps alone are a huge improvement. We should focus on making better maps and keep the balance changes off the table for a while.
Almost every single tournament has maps like Daybreak which is 61:39 % in favor of zerg (according to TL database).
To illustrate, that is basically the same thing as Steppes of War (which was 62% T favored)
We also have big and turtle friendly maps that prevent almost any aggression and make all matchups 10min turtle-feasts.
That is basically equally bad as having only rush maps in the map pool.
So maps being good or bad is very subjective thing.
|
On September 03 2012 05:01 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 04:53 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:hi guys, sorry for being notorious, but i'd like some votes from the other side of the planet, peace Poll: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pickI am Terran and pick Zerg (89) 42% I am Zerg and pick Terran (31) 15% I am Terran and pick Protoss (24) 11% I am Protoss and pick Zerg (24) 11% I am Zerg and pick Protoss (23) 11% I am Protoss and pick Terran (22) 10% 213 total votes Your vote: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick (Vote): I am Zerg and pick Terran
(Vote): I am Zerg and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Terran
where's I'm random and..
Well, 75% of the Terrans would choose Zerg... I knew that before the poll.
And yeah David Kim must be blind or something when he says there something balanced in IEM... there where Bomber and MVP, 2 top tier terrans vs. some foreign Zerg... MVP won this because he is a way better player than Nerchio, slivko or vortix.
Blizzard should really think about if David Kim is the right person für this job.
|
I wish David Kim would just open his eyes. It's clear to everyone that zerg is slightly stronger than both terran and protoss in the late game, (most of protoss wins that make the matchup balanced are from 2 base all ins). The matchups are now boring and stale, its just fast tech to greater spire and infestors for both zerg matchups and fungal somewhat effectively for the win. Spreading broodlords for the vortex is not hard, and build corruptors for vikings. The meta game is in a dire state at the moment.
|
On September 03 2012 06:04 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 01:21 Plansix wrote:On September 01 2012 01:17 Zelniq wrote:We feel that at this time, we should give players more opportunities to fully explore the slowly-shifting meta-game before we change the balance of the game. Wish they just did this all the time.. players, most of the time will figure out ways to deal with any problems and on some occasions Blizzard should have just waited longer before making changes The maps alone are a huge improvement. We should focus on making better maps and keep the balance changes off the table for a while. Almost every single tournament has maps like Daybreak which is 61:39 % in favor of zerg (according to TL database). To illustrate, that is basically the same thing as Steppes of War (which was 62% T favored) We also have big and turtle friendly maps that prevent almost any aggression and make all matchups 10min turtle-feasts. That is basically equally bad as having only rush maps in the map pool. So maps being good or bad is very subjective thing.
In that sense, good and bad maps are actually objective. You gave a very clear, measurable criteria to claim if a map was good or bad, the winrate. If the role of a map is to create a balanced arena for all matchups, Daybreak is just as bad as Steppes of War.
|
On September 03 2012 06:11 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 06:04 Qwerty85 wrote:On September 01 2012 01:21 Plansix wrote:On September 01 2012 01:17 Zelniq wrote:We feel that at this time, we should give players more opportunities to fully explore the slowly-shifting meta-game before we change the balance of the game. Wish they just did this all the time.. players, most of the time will figure out ways to deal with any problems and on some occasions Blizzard should have just waited longer before making changes The maps alone are a huge improvement. We should focus on making better maps and keep the balance changes off the table for a while. Almost every single tournament has maps like Daybreak which is 61:39 % in favor of zerg (according to TL database). To illustrate, that is basically the same thing as Steppes of War (which was 62% T favored) We also have big and turtle friendly maps that prevent almost any aggression and make all matchups 10min turtle-feasts. That is basically equally bad as having only rush maps in the map pool. So maps being good or bad is very subjective thing. In that sense, good and bad maps are actually objective. You gave a very clear, measurable criteria to claim if a map was good or bad, the winrate. If the role of a map is to create a balanced arena for all matchups, Daybreak is just as bad as Steppes of War.
Well yes, it would be objective if those principles would apply. But for some reason, most people would say maps like Daybreak or Metropolis are much better than Steppes of War. Only difference is that Steppes favored terran and rushing and Metropolis favors zerg and long passive games into 200/200 fights.
This is one of the biggest problems in Sc2. Criteria is never standard and double principles always show up.
There are also examples of this in how Blizzard approaches balance issues. The more Blizzard interviews I read, the more I'm convinced that they don't have a developed criteria for balancing the game.
Sometimes it is tournament win rates, sometimes it is 1 tournament, sometimes it is even 1 player/particular game, sometimes is race representation, ladder, or how much actual tournament wins a particular race has, sometimes changes are applied after 1 weekend of tournament play, sometimes they wait for months, they don't factor in map balance into overall balance etc.
If you don't have a constant, how will you know you aren't just running in circles?
This comes of as very unprofessional
|
On September 03 2012 06:06 executorx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 05:01 zhurai wrote:On September 03 2012 04:53 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:hi guys, sorry for being notorious, but i'd like some votes from the other side of the planet, peace Poll: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pickI am Terran and pick Zerg (89) 42% I am Zerg and pick Terran (31) 15% I am Terran and pick Protoss (24) 11% I am Protoss and pick Zerg (24) 11% I am Zerg and pick Protoss (23) 11% I am Protoss and pick Terran (22) 10% 213 total votes Your vote: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick (Vote): I am Zerg and pick Terran
(Vote): I am Zerg and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Terran
where's I'm random and.. Well, 75% of the Terrans would choose Zerg... I knew that before the poll. And yeah David Kim must be blind or something when he says there something balanced in IEM... there where Bomber and MVP, 2 top tier terrans vs. some foreign Zerg... MVP won this because he is a way better player than Nerchio, slivko or vortix. Blizzard should really think about if David Kim is the right person für this job.
I guess I'm in the minority, I voted: I'm protoss and I would play terran as offrace.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
