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On September 02 2012 23:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 23:39 Flonomenalz wrote:On September 02 2012 23:28 xrapture wrote:On September 02 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote:On September 02 2012 18:00 RaiZ wrote:
Lol at the zerg picking Terrans... I'm not sure they realize how harder it is to play in TvZ than it is in ZvT... I'd easily bet for a zerg winning the tournament if the zerg were forced to swtich to T and vice versa. If you think it's all about macroing behind with Terran, then please do so. Can't wait for you getting slaughtered by infestors or banes... And later on against ultras. Gogogo ! Hey it's just like terrans who think all zerg has to do is macro and A move! Hey, as a high Masters T I have always given Zergs the benefit of the doubt, but I started off racing Zerg and I'm beating Master Terrans effortlessly. Send in overlord scout EXACTLY what he's doing. Clean his push up with lings; counter attack 3rd. Just drone and tech to hive. No possible way for you to get dropped because you have by far best map vision in the game and the good static defense. And ZvP I just feel sorry for Toss. On maps where they can take a relatively easy third it's a cool matchup, but a lot of the maps are poop. Yes, it's obviously because Zerg is OP that you're beating Master Terrans effortlessly. Not because you already must have sufficiently good mechanics to be a high masters Terran, coupled with already extensive knowledge of the ZvT match up, making you understand more than most exactly when Terran is weak and what holes you can exploit. Yeah, no possible way for you to get dropped, I wonder how the best Zergs even lose anything to drop since they should always have perfect map vision and static defense everywhere. Yes, when you see “the best Zergs” losing countless times their remote expands because they don't bother to make Spines despite floating thousands of minerals; Yes, when you see “the best Zergs” a-moving their whole 120 supply army, BLs included, to deal with a mere 8 Marines drop; Yes, when you see “the best Zergs” not spreading Overlords in air space even if their Terran opponent never made a Viking to clear them; You understand why they lose games to drops. But that does not mean it should happen.
I think a good parallel is Ling runbys in PvZ. Every once in awhile, you'll see a pro accidentally let Lings into his base at the 2 base stage or when they're just taking a third. Obviously, this is pretty much GG for a competent Zerg since it gives a full scout and generally requires the Protoss to pull back his army. Nevertheless, it's a mistake and is punished as such. Nobody is clamouring for nerfing Lings, obviously, but I think the point is that pro players make mistakes like everyone else. I feel like the Terran and Protoss styles of play have always emphasized not dying to things like runbys/drops for such a long time that we've become rather good at building our base and structuring our builds in such a way that it doesn't happen. I feel like the top Zergs have also done this, considering that drop-centric play (a la old style MMA) is no longer viable as a style on its own, and considering that Warp Prisms are now being countered by a lot of lategame Spores and Spines.
But the point, really, is that Zerg players shouldn't be losing to drops. If they do, it's because they made a serious error, not because drops are super powerful.
I guess the real difference is that before the higher levels of play, nobody really does try to out-multitask Zerg players because they don't really have the mechanical ability to do that without letting their macro slip. Conversely, pretty much anyone can take their initial Speedlings and try to do some harassment with them.
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MVP is the greatest man to ever live. Zerg players are garbage compare to the best Terrans in the world at the moment. Who's good? Nestea? slumping. Leenock? Up and down. Nerchio? Good as long as he stays outside korea.
It's a pity game balance is decided by the quality of the players instead of the game.
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Holy hell, this thread is pathetic. Here's the reasoning of DKim, if any of you actually care and aren't just whipping yourselves up into a balance whine frenzy:
1. We've seen some tentative Raven builds start coming out of MVP, one of the forerunners of Terran strategy.
2. We don't think these specific balance changes are super-critical to keeping Terrans from dropping off the map, seeing as there are still some very strong Terrans in the highest level of play (which is what we're balancing the game for).
3. Depending on how these Raven builds end up shaping out, this patch could either be necessary, not necessary but beneficial, or in an extreme edge case, end up making ZvT nearly unwinnable because Ravens are too strong.
4. Given the above, we're going to sit back for a little and watch MVP do what he does best before deciding whether this patch should go through. It looks like he's on to something, and once he hits a new standard build, it doesn't take long for it to filter down to the rest of the pro scene and the ladder, rebalancing things without us needing to intervene.
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On September 03 2012 00:46 Acritter wrote:
Holy hell, this thread is pathetic. Here's the reasoning of DKim, if any of you actually care and aren't just whipping yourselves up into a balance whine frenzy:
1. We've seen some tentative Raven builds start coming out of MVP, one of the forerunners of Terran strategy.
2. We don't think these specific balance changes are super-critical to keeping Terrans from dropping off the map, seeing as there are still some very strong Terrans in the highest level of play (which is what we're balancing the game for).
3. Depending on how these Raven builds end up shaping out, this patch could either be necessary, not necessary but beneficial, or in an extreme edge case, end up making ZvT nearly unwinnable because Ravens are too strong.
4. Given the above, we're going to sit back for a little and watch MVP do what he does best before deciding whether this patch should go through. It looks like he's on to something, and once he hits a new standard build, it doesn't take long for it to filter down to the rest of the pro scene and the ladder, rebalancing things without us needing to intervene.
And all 4 of these reasons are handily dismissed by the fact that it was Metropolis.
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On September 03 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:46 Acritter wrote:
Holy hell, this thread is pathetic. Here's the reasoning of DKim, if any of you actually care and aren't just whipping yourselves up into a balance whine frenzy:
1. We've seen some tentative Raven builds start coming out of MVP, one of the forerunners of Terran strategy.
2. We don't think these specific balance changes are super-critical to keeping Terrans from dropping off the map, seeing as there are still some very strong Terrans in the highest level of play (which is what we're balancing the game for).
3. Depending on how these Raven builds end up shaping out, this patch could either be necessary, not necessary but beneficial, or in an extreme edge case, end up making ZvT nearly unwinnable because Ravens are too strong.
4. Given the above, we're going to sit back for a little and watch MVP do what he does best before deciding whether this patch should go through. It looks like he's on to something, and once he hits a new standard build, it doesn't take long for it to filter down to the rest of the pro scene and the ladder, rebalancing things without us needing to intervene. And all 4 of these reasons are handily dismissed by the fact that it was Metropolis.
And foreign Zergs and 140 epm Nestea.
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On September 02 2012 22:32 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 22:15 Elldar wrote:
The range upgrade for queen only helped against abusive contains with four hellions and the zerg could do nothing that was going to be a bang for the buck solution, I assume that the intention were prevent that by having the queen having the same range as hellions. You could go roaches but that wasn't a great solution to the contain issue, and getting more queens didn't help either. Hellion run-by is still possible for terran, but they are not as abusive as before when 6 hellions literaly could destroy with not much the zerg could do about it without playing safe on two base and no go out with queens, which led to stale possibilities for the zerg player. ![[image loading]](http://i.qkme.me/3qqek8.jpg) Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please. Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 22:22 revy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe. I'm actually not trying to complain, I don't mind the balance right now (T btw). But I find it funny that every single build/unit you listed was nerfed, and that's how zerg adapted to them. Reapers, speed after fact -> reapers dead 2 rax, bunker build time and salvage nerf hellions, damage nerf to not 3 shot workers instead of 2 shot ghosts, snipe damage nerf Again, not trying to complain. I lose because i'm bad, and I know it! Formerly masters, took like a 5 month+ break now diamond and moving back up towards masters. That kck post is so thick with sarcasm you could cut it with a knife. Upgrade your detectors 
except the Hellions are 5 times faster moving than the Roaches and so the Terran gains complete site of the entire map while the Zerg is left wondering if Terran has 5 command centres.
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On September 03 2012 00:55 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 22:32 Coffee Zombie wrote:On September 02 2012 22:15 Elldar wrote:
The range upgrade for queen only helped against abusive contains with four hellions and the zerg could do nothing that was going to be a bang for the buck solution, I assume that the intention were prevent that by having the queen having the same range as hellions. You could go roaches but that wasn't a great solution to the contain issue, and getting more queens didn't help either. Hellion run-by is still possible for terran, but they are not as abusive as before when 6 hellions literaly could destroy with not much the zerg could do about it without playing safe on two base and no go out with queens, which led to stale possibilities for the zerg player. Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please. On September 02 2012 22:22 revy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe. I'm actually not trying to complain, I don't mind the balance right now (T btw). But I find it funny that every single build/unit you listed was nerfed, and that's how zerg adapted to them. Reapers, speed after fact -> reapers dead 2 rax, bunker build time and salvage nerf hellions, damage nerf to not 3 shot workers instead of 2 shot ghosts, snipe damage nerf Again, not trying to complain. I lose because i'm bad, and I know it! Formerly masters, took like a 5 month+ break now diamond and moving back up towards masters. That kck post is so thick with sarcasm you could cut it with a knife. Upgrade your detectors except the Hellions are 5 times faster moving than the Roaches and so the Terran gains complete site of the entire map while the Zerg is left wondering if Terran has 5 command centres.
You got an Overlord buff to help with the secretive all-in problems Zergs were (apparently) having.
You get complete sight of the map once Creep is spread, and it's a *lot* better than the limited vision of Hellions.
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On September 02 2012 23:57 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY! I want to believe.
If this is true: fucking FINALLY!
Name one unit the infestor is not good against. I doubt there is one, maybe the anti-caster unit ghost.
The infestor got to keep all its imba shit because it was needed - zergs would just die otherwise.
Now zergs seem to do just fine and maybe a bit more. Nerfing the infestor is a much better thing than to change raven speed an acceleration.
The stun basically makes the 9-range, 75 energy aoe instant effect spell able to stack by casting chain fungals.
Compare this to the 125 energy, 6-range slow missile HSM. If fungal stuns, then at the very least HSM could be reduced to 100 energy so that a full energy raven can cast 2 missiles.
Either this change or a HSM speed buff could be warranted.
Faster HSM would make the game harder for the opponents since it would introduce more in-battle micro for splitting your clumped units up. Terran already has to do micro like this vs AOE like storm,fungal or tanks .
But if stun is removed a lot is changed. Maybe then the raven needs no tweaking at all.
The anti-micro spells fungal and forcefields have always made me feel that a big amount of fun is taken out of the game with them. At least terran has semi-good measures vs forcefields with medivac lifts, ghosts, long range tanks and sometimes even thors  I am more worried about zergs as their only way of breaking a cast forcefield is with a T3 ultra. I have seen so many games turn into an auto-win for the protoss because the zerg let up the control of a ramp for a second only to have it blocked indefinitely by forcefields.
Frustrating things like these are what makes me enjoy the game less, while it makes less fanatic Sc2 fans stop playing the game completely.
If they removed fungal stun, made forcefields destroyable and tweaked blink so that it requires a unit that is actually on the high ground itself to be able to blink up then Blizzard would have a more fun game to play. Surely high level pros can remedy these things, but for me who is never gonna make even GM it just ruins the fun.
I am not kidding, if a protoss scouts your 1 rax expand they will 75% of the time go for 4 gate blink stalker all in. It is insanely hard to hold even if scouted as it is possible to put the observer so that it gives enough vision for blink but is too far away for marines to snipe it.
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On September 03 2012 00:55 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 22:32 Coffee Zombie wrote:On September 02 2012 22:15 Elldar wrote:
The range upgrade for queen only helped against abusive contains with four hellions and the zerg could do nothing that was going to be a bang for the buck solution, I assume that the intention were prevent that by having the queen having the same range as hellions. You could go roaches but that wasn't a great solution to the contain issue, and getting more queens didn't help either. Hellion run-by is still possible for terran, but they are not as abusive as before when 6 hellions literaly could destroy with not much the zerg could do about it without playing safe on two base and no go out with queens, which led to stale possibilities for the zerg player. Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please. On September 02 2012 22:22 revy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe. I'm actually not trying to complain, I don't mind the balance right now (T btw). But I find it funny that every single build/unit you listed was nerfed, and that's how zerg adapted to them. Reapers, speed after fact -> reapers dead 2 rax, bunker build time and salvage nerf hellions, damage nerf to not 3 shot workers instead of 2 shot ghosts, snipe damage nerf Again, not trying to complain. I lose because i'm bad, and I know it! Formerly masters, took like a 5 month+ break now diamond and moving back up towards masters. That kck post is so thick with sarcasm you could cut it with a knife. Upgrade your detectors except the Hellions are 5 times faster moving than the Roaches and so the Terran gains complete site of the entire map while the Zerg is left wondering if Terran has 5 command centres.
Quality post. For your knowledge Reactor Hellion quadruple expand was never standard, but who knows? Maybe someday, when Hellions get 11,25 movespeed?
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I don't know how many years it will take Blizzard to realize fungal growth shouldn't block air movement.
And yeah :
On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe.
Good one.
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The game is still imballenced In TvZ. Terran, needs to micro the most. U need to split Marines aginst Banes, (banes Only require a the player to A-Move) and Fungal. Terran Macro is the hardest. Zerg just presses "S", and boom. u juist chose what you want. Terran, had three different Macro buildings. I have a god winrate, Vs Zerg, but I have had to work a lot. And Mvp, AND the top Koreans dont mean anything, they are just better than everyone
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On September 03 2012 00:57 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 23:57 Shiori wrote:On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY! I want to believe. If this is true: fucking FINALLY! Name one unit the infestor is not good against. I doubt there is one, maybe the anti-caster unit ghost. The infestor got to keep all its imba shit because it was needed - zergs would just die otherwise. Now zergs seem to do just fine and maybe a bit more. Nerfing the infestor is a much better thing than to change raven speed an acceleration. The stun basically makes the 9-range, 75 energy aoe instant effect spell able to stack by casting chain fungals. Compare this to the 125 energy, 6-range slow missile HSM. If fungal stuns, then at the very least HSM could be reduced to 100 energy so that a full energy raven can cast 2 missiles. Either this change or a HSM speed buff could be warranted. Faster HSM would make the game harder for the opponents since it would introduce more in-battle micro for splitting your clumped units up. Terran already has to do micro like this vs AOE like storm,fungal or tanks . But if stun is removed a lot is changed. Maybe then the raven needs no tweaking at all. The anti-micro spells fungal and forcefields have always made me feel that a big amount of fun is taken out of the game with them. At least terran has semi-good measures vs forcefields with medivac lifts, ghosts, long range tanks and sometimes even thors I am more worried about zergs as their only way of breaking a cast forcefield is with a T3 ultra. I have seen so many games turn into an auto-win for the protoss because the zerg let up the control of a ramp for a second only to have it blocked indefinitely by forcefields. Frustrating things like these are what makes me enjoy the game less, while it makes less fanatic Sc2 fans stop playing the game completely. If they removed fungal stun, made forcefields destroyable and tweaked blink so that it requires a unit that is actually on the high ground itself to be able to blink up then Blizzard would have a more fun game to play. Surely high level pros can remedy these things, but for me who is never gonna make even GM it just ruins the fun. I am not kidding, if a protoss scouts your 1 rax expand they will 75% of the time go for 4 gate blink stalker all in. It is insanely hard to hold even if scouted as it is possible to put the observer so that it gives enough vision for blink but is too far away for marines to snipe it.
It's not, sorry
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yeah, terran players are always better than everyone else
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On September 03 2012 00:57 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 23:57 Shiori wrote:On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY! I want to believe. If this is true: fucking FINALLY! Name one unit the infestor is not good against. I doubt there is one, maybe the anti-caster unit ghost. The infestor got to keep all its imba shit because it was needed - zergs would just die otherwise. Now zergs seem to do just fine and maybe a bit more. Nerfing the infestor is a much better thing than to change raven speed an acceleration. The stun basically makes the 9-range, 75 energy aoe instant effect spell able to stack by casting chain fungals. Compare this to the 125 energy, 6-range slow missile HSM. If fungal stuns, then at the very least HSM could be reduced to 100 energy so that a full energy raven can cast 2 missiles. Either this change or a HSM speed buff could be warranted. Faster HSM would make the game harder for the opponents since it would introduce more in-battle micro for splitting your clumped units up. Terran already has to do micro like this vs AOE like storm,fungal or tanks . But if stun is removed a lot is changed. Maybe then the raven needs no tweaking at all. The anti-micro spells fungal and forcefields have always made me feel that a big amount of fun is taken out of the game with them. At least terran has semi-good measures vs forcefields with medivac lifts, ghosts, long range tanks and sometimes even thors I am more worried about zergs as their only way of breaking a cast forcefield is with a T3 ultra. I have seen so many games turn into an auto-win for the protoss because the zerg let up the control of a ramp for a second only to have it blocked indefinitely by forcefields. Frustrating things like these are what makes me enjoy the game less, while it makes less fanatic Sc2 fans stop playing the game completely. If they removed fungal stun, made forcefields destroyable and tweaked blink so that it requires a unit that is actually on the high ground itself to be able to blink up then Blizzard would have a more fun game to play. Surely high level pros can remedy these things, but for me who is never gonna make even GM it just ruins the fun. I am not kidding, if a protoss scouts your 1 rax expand they will 75% of the time go for 4 gate blink stalker all in. It is insanely hard to hold even if scouted as it is possible to put the observer so that it gives enough vision for blink but is too far away for marines to snipe it.
For forcefields, in my opinion they are not the horrible micro-reducing spell that so many people make it out to be. We've seen some amazing anti-force field micro, such as evacuating with a medivac. It takes 3-4 force fields to actually trap a part of an army, and if it only takes one (because of a ramp) then the T/Z deserves to get killed for running up a ramp without sending a single unit up first to see if there could be force fields. Also, zerg should have a good overlord spread if they scouted a potential warp prism build. If you know a WP could be incoming, you need to be prepared for it. It's just like burrowed infestors taking out a nexus because there wasn't detector. Honestly, ling run-by's are far worse than a warp prism in the main. I've seen many pros lose to standard run-by's because the warped in zealot didn't fully block off the entrance to the base. However, sentry/warpprism is a very heavy investment, if it fails P is so far behind. If a ling run-by fails, there are 4 lings killed. The point of that is every race has stuff that seems super abusive, and is hard to stop but is definitely possible to prevent.
As for blink stalkers, I think you are just complaining about a build that you have trouble holding. Based on forum browsing, there are not that many people that have trouble with blink stalker all-ins. Not blinking to the high ground is a huge nerf to protoss, so unless the blink stalker all-in was a huge issue, I don't think it warrants the nerf.
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On September 01 2012 01:14 Swords wrote:
Here's the problem with this. When DKim made the Queen range/overlord speed patch TvZ was at the most balanced it had been in a long time. I believe the winrates were 51%/49% or something like that - in any case it was extremely close at the highest levels. Why on earth was that change made if the balance was looking great? Especially when it was an absolutely massive change, completely buffing both Zerg's scouting ability and defensive/macro unit (worth noting: I do think overlord speed was a fine buff, but both at once was absurd - especially when you talk about a "slowly developing game" as Kim does above).
I don't really have the authority to comment on if TvZ is balanced now, but one thing is for sure, as a spectator of TvZ matches in tournaments it has become a lot more boring to watch. The proposed Raven patch wasn't going to fix the 10 minute early game snore-fest TvZ has become, and all this latest situation report has convinced me of is Blizzard just makes up stuff as they go along - if statistics actually mattered to them they wouldn't have patched queens in the first place.
For reasons as you give and more, Blizzard's statements have lost any credibility with me. I no longer suspend disbelief. The inconsistencies are wild and they pile up. I wish there were more logic, consistency and openness even if we're still going not to get the aid we hope for.
On September 03 2012 01:24 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:57 one-one-one wrote:On September 02 2012 23:57 Shiori wrote:On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY! I want to believe. If this is true: fucking FINALLY! Name one unit the infestor is not good against. I doubt there is one, maybe the anti-caster unit ghost. The infestor got to keep all its imba shit because it was needed - zergs would just die otherwise. Now zergs seem to do just fine and maybe a bit more. Nerfing the infestor is a much better thing than to change raven speed an acceleration. The stun basically makes the 9-range, 75 energy aoe instant effect spell able to stack by casting chain fungals. Compare this to the 125 energy, 6-range slow missile HSM. If fungal stuns, then at the very least HSM could be reduced to 100 energy so that a full energy raven can cast 2 missiles. Either this change or a HSM speed buff could be warranted. Faster HSM would make the game harder for the opponents since it would introduce more in-battle micro for splitting your clumped units up. Terran already has to do micro like this vs AOE like storm,fungal or tanks . But if stun is removed a lot is changed. Maybe then the raven needs no tweaking at all. The anti-micro spells fungal and forcefields have always made me feel that a big amount of fun is taken out of the game with them. At least terran has semi-good measures vs forcefields with medivac lifts, ghosts, long range tanks and sometimes even thors I am more worried about zergs as their only way of breaking a cast forcefield is with a T3 ultra. I have seen so many games turn into an auto-win for the protoss because the zerg let up the control of a ramp for a second only to have it blocked indefinitely by forcefields. Frustrating things like these are what makes me enjoy the game less, while it makes less fanatic Sc2 fans stop playing the game completely. If they removed fungal stun, made forcefields destroyable and tweaked blink so that it requires a unit that is actually on the high ground itself to be able to blink up then Blizzard would have a more fun game to play. Surely high level pros can remedy these things, but for me who is never gonna make even GM it just ruins the fun. I am not kidding, if a protoss scouts your 1 rax expand they will 75% of the time go for 4 gate blink stalker all in. It is insanely hard to hold even if scouted as it is possible to put the observer so that it gives enough vision for blink but is too far away for marines to snipe it. For forcefields, in my opinion they are not the horrible micro-reducing spell that so many people make it out to be. We've seen some amazing anti-force field micro, such as evacuating with a medivac. It takes 3-4 force fields to actually trap a part of an army, and if it only takes one (because of a ramp) then the T/Z deserves to get killed for running up a ramp without sending a single unit up first to see if there could be force fields. Also, zerg should have a good overlord spread if they scouted a potential warp prism build. If you know a WP could be incoming, you need to be prepared for it. It's just like burrowed infestors taking out a nexus because there wasn't detector. Honestly, ling run-by's are far worse than a warp prism in the main. I've seen many pros lose to standard run-by's because the warped in zealot didn't fully block off the entrance to the base. However, sentry/warpprism is a very heavy investment, if it fails P is so far behind. If a ling run-by fails, there are 4 lings killed. The point of that is every race has stuff that seems super abusive, and is hard to stop but is definitely possible to prevent. As for blink stalkers, I think you are just complaining about a build that you have trouble holding. Based on forum browsing, there are not that many people that have trouble with blink stalker all-ins. Not blinking to the high ground is a huge nerf to protoss, so unless the blink stalker all-in was a huge issue, I don't think it warrants the nerf.
Regarding FF, I would like, with all due respect (and I mean it) to point your attention to one thing: amazing micro as a counter vs unqualified (presumably somewhat competent but rather average) forcefields. I am inclined to question the heavy reliance of Terran balance on micro for countres to strategies or tactics that don't require it or require less of it.
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On September 03 2012 01:24 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:57 one-one-one wrote:On September 02 2012 23:57 Shiori wrote:On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY! I want to believe. If this is true: fucking FINALLY! Name one unit the infestor is not good against. I doubt there is one, maybe the anti-caster unit ghost. The infestor got to keep all its imba shit because it was needed - zergs would just die otherwise. Now zergs seem to do just fine and maybe a bit more. Nerfing the infestor is a much better thing than to change raven speed an acceleration. The stun basically makes the 9-range, 75 energy aoe instant effect spell able to stack by casting chain fungals. Compare this to the 125 energy, 6-range slow missile HSM. If fungal stuns, then at the very least HSM could be reduced to 100 energy so that a full energy raven can cast 2 missiles. Either this change or a HSM speed buff could be warranted. Faster HSM would make the game harder for the opponents since it would introduce more in-battle micro for splitting your clumped units up. Terran already has to do micro like this vs AOE like storm,fungal or tanks . But if stun is removed a lot is changed. Maybe then the raven needs no tweaking at all. The anti-micro spells fungal and forcefields have always made me feel that a big amount of fun is taken out of the game with them. At least terran has semi-good measures vs forcefields with medivac lifts, ghosts, long range tanks and sometimes even thors I am more worried about zergs as their only way of breaking a cast forcefield is with a T3 ultra. I have seen so many games turn into an auto-win for the protoss because the zerg let up the control of a ramp for a second only to have it blocked indefinitely by forcefields. Frustrating things like these are what makes me enjoy the game less, while it makes less fanatic Sc2 fans stop playing the game completely. If they removed fungal stun, made forcefields destroyable and tweaked blink so that it requires a unit that is actually on the high ground itself to be able to blink up then Blizzard would have a more fun game to play. Surely high level pros can remedy these things, but for me who is never gonna make even GM it just ruins the fun. I am not kidding, if a protoss scouts your 1 rax expand they will 75% of the time go for 4 gate blink stalker all in. It is insanely hard to hold even if scouted as it is possible to put the observer so that it gives enough vision for blink but is too far away for marines to snipe it. For forcefields, in my opinion they are not the horrible micro-reducing spell that so many people make it out to be. We've seen some amazing anti-force field micro, such as evacuating with a medivac. It takes 3-4 force fields to actually trap a part of an army, and if it only takes one (because of a ramp) then the T/Z deserves to get killed for running up a ramp without sending a single unit up first to see if there could be force fields. Also, zerg should have a good overlord spread if they scouted a potential warp prism build. If you know a WP could be incoming, you need to be prepared for it. It's just like burrowed infestors taking out a nexus because there wasn't detector. Honestly, ling run-by's are far worse than a warp prism in the main. I've seen many pros lose to standard run-by's because the warped in zealot didn't fully block off the entrance to the base. However, sentry/warpprism is a very heavy investment, if it fails P is so far behind. If a ling run-by fails, there are 4 lings killed. The point of that is every race has stuff that seems super abusive, and is hard to stop but is definitely possible to prevent. As for blink stalkers, I think you are just complaining about a build that you have trouble holding. Based on forum browsing, there are not that many people that have trouble with blink stalker all-ins. Not blinking to the high ground is a huge nerf to protoss, so unless the blink stalker all-in was a huge issue, I don't think it warrants the nerf.
I am not saying that it should not be possible to blink up to high ground, just that the observer giving vision should have to be close enough for marines to snipe it. It is always like this on TL, why can't you read what I wrote and address that instead of twisting my words ?
I am trying a 1-rax expand into 1-1-1 for cloaked banshees that I saw MVP do.
Holding the blink stalker all in is seriously hard if the protoss doesn't fuck things up. I have no idea how to stop it.
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I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff.
Im thinking that creep spread is just too powerfull, it gives to many things to the zerg, more speed but overall it gives them vision. That allows that you never be able to do army movements against them, one of the more interest stuff in the TvT MU.. I remember from BW that tank lines plus turrets were OP because there were no cost efective way to break them, so what they did in the map, uncontructible terrain, so guess what you could have creep in your side of the map like is suppouse to be, and not the whole map.
I believe people forget the bases of strategy that we learn in BW. The more important stuff is macro and information. Well the ability for zerg to gain information in simply to strong.
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also
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On September 03 2012 01:21 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:57 one-one-one wrote:On September 02 2012 23:57 Shiori wrote:On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY! I want to believe. If this is true: fucking FINALLY! Name one unit the infestor is not good against. I doubt there is one, maybe the anti-caster unit ghost. The infestor got to keep all its imba shit because it was needed - zergs would just die otherwise. Now zergs seem to do just fine and maybe a bit more. Nerfing the infestor is a much better thing than to change raven speed an acceleration. The stun basically makes the 9-range, 75 energy aoe instant effect spell able to stack by casting chain fungals. Compare this to the 125 energy, 6-range slow missile HSM. If fungal stuns, then at the very least HSM could be reduced to 100 energy so that a full energy raven can cast 2 missiles. Either this change or a HSM speed buff could be warranted. Faster HSM would make the game harder for the opponents since it would introduce more in-battle micro for splitting your clumped units up. Terran already has to do micro like this vs AOE like storm,fungal or tanks . But if stun is removed a lot is changed. Maybe then the raven needs no tweaking at all. The anti-micro spells fungal and forcefields have always made me feel that a big amount of fun is taken out of the game with them. At least terran has semi-good measures vs forcefields with medivac lifts, ghosts, long range tanks and sometimes even thors I am more worried about zergs as their only way of breaking a cast forcefield is with a T3 ultra. I have seen so many games turn into an auto-win for the protoss because the zerg let up the control of a ramp for a second only to have it blocked indefinitely by forcefields. Frustrating things like these are what makes me enjoy the game less, while it makes less fanatic Sc2 fans stop playing the game completely. If they removed fungal stun, made forcefields destroyable and tweaked blink so that it requires a unit that is actually on the high ground itself to be able to blink up then Blizzard would have a more fun game to play. Surely high level pros can remedy these things, but for me who is never gonna make even GM it just ruins the fun. I am not kidding, if a protoss scouts your 1 rax expand they will 75% of the time go for 4 gate blink stalker all in. It is insanely hard to hold even if scouted as it is possible to put the observer so that it gives enough vision for blink but is too far away for marines to snipe it. It's not, sorry
Q_Q
Back to the drawing board, I guess.
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On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything
? Mutalisks, Spines, Spores, Zerglings and/or Banes patrolling... Why would you pretend that Infestors are the only answer to deal with drops? You don't particularly care about him picking up (which is not possible against Mutalisks too anyway) as long as you avoid damage to your economy or tech buildings. It's like saying “Mutalisks sniping Reactors or SCVs then just flying away when you stim Marines is like cheating,” doesn't make much sense.
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On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote:
I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff.
Im thinking that creep spread is just too powerfull, it gives to many things to the zerg, more speed but overall it gives them vision. That allows that you never be able to do army movements against them, one of the more interest stuff in the TvT MU.. I remember from BW that tank lines plus turrets were OP because there were no cost efective way to break them, so what they did in the map, uncontructible terrain, so guess what you could have creep in your side of the map like is suppouse to be, and not the whole map.
I believe people forget the bases of strategy that we learn in BW. The more important stuff is macro and information. Well the ability for zerg to gain information in simply to strong.
About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units.
I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also
Well, Terran and Protoss don't really have a way to kill Mutas when they get spotted, and we seem to get along okay.
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EPT
