EPTSituation Report: August 31, 2012 by David Kim - Page 42
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
| ||
|
NewbieOne
Poland560 Posts
On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote: I believe that the maps still need improvements for some balance stuff. I see the problem of maps vs balance being raised more and more. Personally, I'm of the belief that fixing numbers can fix balance only to a limited extent, while win ratio statistics provide only limited evidence. Im thinking that creep spread is just too powerfull, it gives to many things to the zerg, more speed but overall it gives them vision. That allows that you never be able to do army movements against them, one of the more interest stuff in the TvT MU.. I remember from BW that tank lines plus turrets were OP because there were no cost efective way to break them, so what they did in the map, uncontructible terrain, so guess what you could have creep in your side of the map like is suppouse to be, and not the whole map. I believe people forget the bases of strategy that we learn in BW. The more important stuff is macro and information. Well the ability for zerg to gain information in simply to strong. Yes, addressing the spread speed seems to be a very tangential way of dealing with the design issue whereby creep tumors provide vision of the map. About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units. Perhaps infestor has been streamlined into being too much of a catchall counter, creating some negative sentiments. On September 03 2012 01:51 acrimoneyius wrote: If fungal was changed from stop effect to slow effect, I could die a happy man. I don't think Blizzard has it in them to make such a sensible change, though. That and non-chainable. | ||
|
Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
10 Protoss, 9 Zerg, and 13 Terran sounds pretty even to me. | ||
|
Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On September 03 2012 02:11 NewbieOne wrote: I see the problem of maps vs balance being raised more and more. Personally, I'm of the belief that fixing numbers can fix balance only to a limited extent, while win ratio statistics provide only limited evidence. I think the problem is that if you tweak the map too much in order to balance a certain match up, then an other match up could be ruined. Like if you get a map with 50-50 winratio for TvZ, then maybe it could make the winrate be 70-30 in TvP, just as an example. I believe we should have different maps for different matchups if blizzard can't deal with balance properly. Also with HotS coming up, it will have chaotic balance and everything gonna be unbalanced unless blizzard somehow magically fixes all the abuseful and imbalanced strategies in beta while also having the players achieve a metagame with balanced winrates. Though, from my experience and watching tournaments. I saw that mech has a lot of potential in TvZ and I feel that those players who are struggling in TvZ aren't using mech correctly and have suboptimal mech openers. Maybe the terrans really need to just adapt and improve instead of getting buffed. | ||
|
rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 03 2012 01:19 SC_THORLORD wrote: The game is still imballenced In TvZ. Terran, needs to micro the most. U need to split Marines aginst Banes, (banes Only require a the player to A-Move) and Fungal. Terran Macro is the hardest. Zerg just presses "S", and boom. u juist chose what you want. Terran, had three different Macro buildings. I have a god winrate, Vs Zerg, but I have had to work a lot. And Mvp, AND the top Koreans dont mean anything, they are just better than everyone 1. You don't amove banes. 2. Zerg has equal capacity to split their lings/banes against tanks. It's 2x harder, they don't really need to, and flanking is almost as effective. 3. They don't inject, spread creep or manage overlord position around the map either. You must play zerg a lot. 4. You don't fight the zergs MVP or the top Koreans play. 5. imballenced, lol | ||
|
JimSocks
United States968 Posts
i guess we'll just have to wait for zergs to learn how to split units. then maybe they will give terrans an anti-splitting spell too. | ||
|
Sein
United States1811 Posts
On September 03 2012 01:38 camilocraft wrote: About fungal, i believe zerg need something to kill drops without loses if got spoted, something like the scourge, but in WoL they don't have anything aside to the inferstor, they don't have nor cheap nor mobile antiair, the problem with the drops is that the are pretty mobile and can pickup all the people at one, for me were allways a joke that terrans could do a drop and then the zerlings came and they just pickup and leave, is like cheating (i believe the new protoss recall from the nexus has the same problem btw) because zerg cannot do anything, so the solution is the infestor, but is pretty bad for me that the zerg best anti air is the infested terran, is just... horrible, I will aproach the no stun but root, (you could use abilities) in ground units and slow in flighting units. I really rooting for the hidra buff in HOTs, but is a new game so we need to balance that stuff also I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 03 2012 02:18 Adonminus wrote: Though, from my experience and watching tournaments. I saw that mech has a lot of potential in TvZ and I feel that those players who are struggling in TvZ aren't using mech correctly and have suboptimal mech openers. Mech relies on killing enough drones early game with Hellions/Banshees not to get crushed by 13'30 max Roach drop (possibly multi-pronged) or 15 minuts BL. Over time Zergs will learn how to defend properly this harass and it won't be standard anymore to get between 20 and 60 (!) Drone kills by the 10' mark, which of course makes the follow-up viable. | ||
|
Shiori
3815 Posts
| ||
|
CyDe
United States1010 Posts
On September 02 2012 16:51 forsooth wrote: Because we're not writing papers and turning them in for grades here. Mvp has stated within the last month that Terran is kind of a pushover right now, Taeja has called Terran the weakest race, DRG has claimed ZvT is impossible for him to lose if he doesn't screw the game up, and the list goes on. Am I going to bother digging through TL to source everything? Of course not. That'd take up a bunch of time I don't feel like spending. If you want to tell me I'm lying for no reason, go ahead. It doesn't make you not wrong though. Didn't say you nor him were lying once, was just looking for some evidence, which the guy who posted behind you found in a jiffy. It's a lot easier to convince your opponents when you find and show evidence instead of telling them pretty much, "Screw you find it yourself." | ||
|
Gben592
United Kingdom281 Posts
On September 03 2012 01:19 SC_THORLORD wrote:And Mvp, AND the top Koreans dont mean anything, they are just better than everyone Well if they are doing fine then you should stop being lazy and asking blizz to make the game easier for you and practice until you become that good, I mean seriously... | ||
|
Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 03 2012 03:03 Gben592 wrote: Well if they are doing fine then you should stop being lazy and asking blizz to make the game easier for you and practice until you become that good, I mean seriously... DRG won a GSL right before the Queen patch. | ||
|
Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On September 02 2012 22:32 Coffee Zombie wrote: Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please. User was warned for this post What? Then what? I take a third and hope you don't push or get banshees? Since I would have to get the roaches so early I don't have speedlings nor tech, and my third and fourth queens is delayed. I mean wtf early roaches to counter hellions has only that purpose to counter them. And you never had to engage in the first place. The hellions could easily spot a push miles away. I am not saying that roaches isn't good against terran, but the fact that you had to get them so early just puts you so far behind, that's why it was so much better get spines with wall and tech. | ||
|
Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On September 02 2012 22:32 Coffee Zombie wrote: Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please. User was warned for this post Let's not forget that the races function differently. A terran can't spend all his resources on scvs, so he builds scvs while also building units. This means he must somehow use those units in order to stop the droning, and forcing roaches is just so great for him. Roaches is one of the weakest units in combat for ZvT. At the same time zerg cuts drones, and since zerg units are less cost effective even if they are even in everything, the terran will win. Zerg must always be slightly ahead in order to not die. You can't compare it like that. | ||
|
ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On September 03 2012 02:41 Sein wrote: I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. It'd be best if overlords just spawned banelings instead of dropping creep. To address those problems you mentioned, these banelings should hit nearby airunits upon spawning, so poor Z could handle those mean drops. Make it autocast too, so you can have a nice flying minefield around your bases. Oh and move it from lair-tech to hatch-tech, anything less would be a joke, ofc. | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 03 2012 03:11 Adonminus wrote: Let's not forget that the races function differently. A terran can't spend all his resources on scvs, so he builds scvs while also building units. This means he must somehow use those units in order to stop the droning, and forcing roaches is just so great for him. Roaches is one of the weakest units in combat for ZvT. At the same time zerg cuts drones, and since zerg units are less cost effective even if they are even in everything, the terran will win. Zerg must always be slightly ahead in order to not die. You can't compare it like that. Reactor Hellion did not force Roaches (only BFH or 2x Reactor Hellion did); Zergs had the option to make a Roach Warren to break the Hellion contain sooner than they would with the Spine slowly moving or 20+ Zerglings trying to get a surround. Making 3-4 Roaches was a choice, not something mandatory (standard play, 2-bases Mutas, took their third later with no particular problem), and the Zerg player was not behind in economy doing so. And I don't see how you can say that Roaches are one of the weakest units in combat for ZvT, a lot of pro Zerg players use Lings/Roaches/Infestors, various timings can be efficiently defended with Lings/Roaches/Banes—not to mention their use against mech. Obviously pure Roach would be terrible against Marines/Tanks but mixing Roaches with Lings/Banes or Lings/Infestors is not unheard of at all. | ||
|
Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
On September 03 2012 03:27 ACrow wrote: It'd be best if overlords just spawned banelings instead of dropping creep. To address those problems you mentioned, these banelings should hit nearby airunits upon spawning, so poor Z could handle those mean drops. Make it autocast too, so you can have a nice flying minefield around your bases. Oh and move it from lair-tech to hatch-tech, anything less would be a joke, ofc. That sounds rather complicated. Why not just let banelings burrow either underground or into the air. Sort of like vikings where they have a vs. land burrow and a vs air borrow. | ||
|
Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
And yeah, forcing the Roaches, or forcing the lings, or forcing the Spine reroots is good for Terran. That's the whole damn point. If Zerg doesn't use larva for units, the Zerg soars ahead and there's jack the Terran can do about it. Due to the patch Zerg doesn't have to make units with larva unless the Terran does a heavy push which has broken the matchup (and at any rate made it far worse to watch because the super rapid economic expansion of the Zerg and the resulting extremeness of Terran builds has basically erased the midgame completely). The end result is a Terran all-inning, the Terran being ludicrously, unsafely greedy or the Zerg being ahead all game long while remaining safe from almost everything. That dynamic is far, far worse than the old Reactor Hellion meta where there was a middleground and that middle ground was the default for both parties. Greed was actually exciting because it was so unsafe on both players' part, there was a good, long midgame of marine-tank vs. infestor or muta centric zerg comps while Zerg tried to make breathing room to tech up to Tier 3. The matchup was much slower and thus T also had more time to get their lategame tech and production up. It was just a better matchup all around. As a concrete example, in the old meta a 14 minute Hive was astoundingly greedy, and super exciting if it managed to pan out. Now 12 minute is STANDARD. That's so damn wrong it hurts. | ||
|
Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
On September 03 2012 03:35 TheDwf wrote: And I don't see how you can say that Roaches are one of the weakest units in combat for ZvT, a lot of pro Zerg players use Lings/Roaches/Infestors, various timings can be efficiently defended with Lings/Roaches/Banes—not to mention their use against mech. Obviously pure Roach would be terrible against Marines/Tanks but mixing Roaches with Lings/Banes or Lings/Infestors is not unheard of at all. It depends on the context. Tanks are good in TvP for 1/1/1ing but does that make tanks a good unit in the overall TvP matchup? The only unit youd see less of than the roach ideally in TvZ are hydralisks because they are just blatantly bad  Your absolutely right though, roaches can do more in TvZ than the tanks can in TvP atm | ||
|
ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
I couldn't agree with you more. Here's a few of my gripes: for me were allways a joke that terrans could build a bunker next to my natural hatchery and then the zerlings came and they just repair with scvs, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could kill all my drones with hellions and then the zerlings came and they just kite and leave, is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terrans could make buildings and then the zerlings came and they just lift and leave is like cheating for me were allways a joke that terran could send banshees and then the zerlings came and they just keep shooting is like cheating I think that the easiest and most obvious solution here is to have zerlings shoot air. They got dem strong legs, so it makes sense they can jump and hop onto those medivacs and flying orbital commends. 8/10, would be trolled again | ||
| ||
do some searching or you might look like a giant douche like this kid
