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On September 02 2012 22:14 nunez wrote:haha! i think it would be cool to see ravens zooming around. very funny unit. i do like them as suicide bombers as well though.
I was playing BW again recently and I had forgotten just how powerful infested terrans are. 500 damage and MAD fast -_- Too bad they were basically impossible to get when you're not screwing around with the computer...
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On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe.
I'm actually not trying to complain, I don't mind the balance right now (T btw). But I find it funny that every single build/unit you listed was nerfed, and that's how zerg adapted to them.
Reapers, speed after fact -> reapers dead
2 rax, bunker build time and salvage nerf
hellions, damage nerf to not 3 shot workers instead of 2 shot
ghosts, snipe damage nerf
Again, not trying to complain. I lose because i'm bad, and I know it! Formerly masters, took like a 5 month+ break now diamond and moving back up towards masters.
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On September 02 2012 22:15 Elldar wrote:
The range upgrade for queen only helped against abusive contains with four hellions and the zerg could do nothing that was going to be a bang for the buck solution, I assume that the intention were prevent that by having the queen having the same range as hellions. You could go roaches but that wasn't a great solution to the contain issue, and getting more queens didn't help either. Hellion run-by is still possible for terran, but they are not as abusive as before when 6 hellions literaly could destroy with not much the zerg could do about it without playing safe on two base and no go out with queens, which led to stale possibilities for the zerg player.
![[image loading]](http://i.qkme.me/3qqek8.jpg)
Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please.
On September 02 2012 22:22 revy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe. I'm actually not trying to complain, I don't mind the balance right now (T btw). But I find it funny that every single build/unit you listed was nerfed, and that's how zerg adapted to them. Reapers, speed after fact -> reapers dead 2 rax, bunker build time and salvage nerf hellions, damage nerf to not 3 shot workers instead of 2 shot ghosts, snipe damage nerf Again, not trying to complain. I lose because i'm bad, and I know it! Formerly masters, took like a 5 month+ break now diamond and moving back up towards masters.
That kck post is so thick with sarcasm you could cut it with a knife. Upgrade your detectors 
User was warned for this post
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On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe.
wtf are you talking? zerg only builds queens nowadays and is safe against everything......what you say is bullshit
and zerg did adapt to terran stuff like reaper 2 rax and ghosts??? Srsly?? Blizz had to nerf this shit cuz zergs where unable to adapt!!!....and now when terra is unable to adapt you come here and say, there is no need of a nerf, terrans should just adapt like you zergs did?? Holy fuck you talk retarded bullshit
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On September 02 2012 22:33 uzushould wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe. wtf are you talking? zerg only builds queens nowadays and is safe against everything......what you say is bullshit and zerg did adapt to terran stuff like reaper 2 rax and ghosts??? Srsly?? Blizz had to nerf this shit cuz zergs where unable to adapt!!!....and now when terra is unable to adapt you come here and say, there is no need of a nerf, terrans should just adapt like you zergs did?? Holy fuck you talk retarded bullshit
You need better sarcasm detector.
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On September 02 2012 22:33 uzushould wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe. wtf are you talking? zerg only builds queens nowadays and is safe against everything......what you say is bullshit and zerg did adapt to terran stuff like reaper 2 rax and ghosts??? Srsly?? Blizz had to nerf this shit cuz zergs where unable to adapt!!!....and now when terra is unable to adapt you come here and say, there is no need of a nerf, terrans should just adapt like you zergs did?? Holy fuck you talk retarded bullshit
I don't think you understood the joke.
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On September 02 2012 22:15 Elldar wrote:
The range upgrade for queen only helped against abusive contains with four hellions and the zerg could do nothing that was going to be a bang for the buck solution, I assume that the intention were prevent that by having the queen having the same range as hellions. You could go roaches but that wasn't a great solution to the contain issue
Then why did Nerchio and later Stephano often played this way successfully? (Don't know much about Korean Zergs but I'm sure some of them were playing that way too.) And what does “abusive contain” even mean? When Terrans go 1 rax FE, Protoss are able to contain them with Stalkers for a while, should Marines be given +1 range to deal with this “abusive contain”? That would be absurd, but somehow that happened in ZvT with the known consequences: non-committed early agression being easily foiled by Queens on their own, creep covering 75% of the map insanely fast and 11 minuts Hive as the new standard.
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On September 02 2012 22:55 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 22:33 uzushould wrote:On September 02 2012 18:42 kckkryptonite wrote:
Guys, DKim is saying Terran just has to figure out new stuff, just like Zergs did over the course of 2 years, remember how Zergs adapted to Terran stuff like Reapers, 2rax, Hellions, Ghosts, etc.? The reason Zerg is the most played race is because it takes the most skill and learning to adapt. If you're a foreigner, Terran is a great and simple race to play since it's not as complex and mechanically demanding as Zerg; there's so much stuff Zerg has to constantly scout for, they can't just build one unit, not scout at all, or do the same exact build every time and be safe. wtf are you talking? zerg only builds queens nowadays and is safe against everything......what you say is bullshit and zerg did adapt to terran stuff like reaper 2 rax and ghosts??? Srsly?? Blizz had to nerf this shit cuz zergs where unable to adapt!!!....and now when terra is unable to adapt you come here and say, there is no need of a nerf, terrans should just adapt like you zergs did?? Holy fuck you talk retarded bullshit You need better sarcasm detector.
yes probably ^^
maybe its because his post made me rage so hard that i didn t even took in consideration that this could be sarcasm ^^
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Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please.
and this 4 Roaches did what? Yes, they can kill the Hellions in a direct batte but newsflash:
Hellions are faster and do not need to engage in a direct battle.
Yo use your roaches to secure a 3rd? No problem, I roast your natural because you cant defend and guard the drone to the 3rd.
You use your roaches to defend from runbys? Great! So I can still kill tumors and deny your 3rd till I have established mine.
Yes Roaches where used, but It was not Roaches only. It was Roaches, and Spines and Sim City and sometimes even Lings just to defend from 6 Hellions. Your math is flawed.
You will use that techlab and that reactor and that factory to produce tank/marine all game long.
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On September 02 2012 16:54 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2012 16:46 Thrombozyt wrote:
Honestly just for funsies, Blizzard should do a 'call to action' fortnight inbetween seasons, where the race a player has used on the ladder the most the last 2 months is disabled.
Then see a) what races the players choose (e.g. how much Zergs choose Protoss over Terran) and b) the win rates with the off races.
Just two weeks of an off-season, maybe with some achievements or minor prizes to motivate people to try out something new. Would be a boon to the random players - which could still play random.
err .. this would be measuring balance at low level .. but interesting. i'd choose protoss, because i assume there are the most safe noob strats avaiable and the units are pretty durable, so you might get away with micro erros when offracing. Poll: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pickI am Terran and pick Zerg (89) 42% I am Zerg and pick Terran (31) 15% I am Terran and pick Protoss (24) 11% I am Protoss and pick Zerg (24) 11% I am Zerg and pick Protoss (23) 11% I am Protoss and pick Terran (22) 10% 213 total votes Your vote: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick (Vote): I am Zerg and pick Terran
(Vote): I am Zerg and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Terran and pick Protoss
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Zerg
(Vote): I am Protoss and pick Terran
For a single tournament I would pick Protoss because I feel like it is a bit more like Terran and you can get by knowing a few cheesy builds, but if I were to switch to a different race, I would definitely pick Zerg. I still have never gotten into a rhythm to do larva properly and consistently, but I'm sure I could pick that up without too much effort if I just played the game more as Zerg.
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Well, as a spectator, I greatly appreciate this stance of "wait and see", as I believe the the greatest ideas come from difficults situations. Since terrans have it hard for once, I expect they will reach the top again very soon.
Moreover, I believe that a game with so many parameters is impossible to balance exactly, so the ony otpion is to balance the metagame. If it balances itself, isn't that fine?
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On September 02 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 18:00 RaiZ wrote:
Lol at the zerg picking Terrans... I'm not sure they realize how harder it is to play in TvZ than it is in ZvT... I'd easily bet for a zerg winning the tournament if the zerg were forced to swtich to T and vice versa. If you think it's all about macroing behind with Terran, then please do so. Can't wait for you getting slaughtered by infestors or banes... And later on against ultras. Gogogo ! Hey it's just like terrans who think all zerg has to do is macro and A move!
Hey, as a high Masters T I have always given Zergs the benefit of the doubt, but I started off racing Zerg and I'm beating Master Terrans effortlessly.
Send in overlord scout EXACTLY what he's doing. Clean his push up with lings; counter attack 3rd. Just drone and tech to hive. No possible way for you to get dropped because you have by far best map vision in the game and the good static defense.
And ZvP I just feel sorry for Toss. On maps where they can take a relatively easy third it's a cool matchup, but a lot of the maps are poop.
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Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods.
-Cygnus-x1
Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY!
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Do you guys even realize protoss players kind of tricked the terrans into thinking zerg is the strongest race, right?
proof: http://imgur.com/a/dx7pt at least in korea,but international is 52-51 toss up beetween zerg and toss respectively
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On September 02 2012 23:28 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote:On September 02 2012 18:00 RaiZ wrote:
Lol at the zerg picking Terrans... I'm not sure they realize how harder it is to play in TvZ than it is in ZvT... I'd easily bet for a zerg winning the tournament if the zerg were forced to swtich to T and vice versa. If you think it's all about macroing behind with Terran, then please do so. Can't wait for you getting slaughtered by infestors or banes... And later on against ultras. Gogogo ! Hey it's just like terrans who think all zerg has to do is macro and A move! Hey, as a high Masters T I have always given Zergs the benefit of the doubt, but I started off racing Zerg and I'm beating Master Terrans effortlessly. Send in overlord scout EXACTLY what he's doing. Clean his push up with lings; counter attack 3rd. Just drone and tech to hive. No possible way for you to get dropped because you have by far best map vision in the game and the good static defense. And ZvP I just feel sorry for Toss. On maps where they can take a relatively easy third it's a cool matchup, but a lot of the maps are poop.
Yes, it's obviously because Zerg is OP that you're beating Master Terrans effortlessly.
Not because you already must have sufficiently good mechanics to be a high masters Terran, coupled with already extensive knowledge of the ZvT match up, making you understand more than most exactly when Terran is weak and what holes you can exploit.
Yeah, no possible way for you to get dropped, I wonder how the best Zergs even lose anything to drop since they should always have perfect map vision and static defense everywhere.
Jeez this thread is hilarious.
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On September 02 2012 23:39 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 23:28 xrapture wrote:On September 02 2012 18:01 blade55555 wrote:On September 02 2012 18:00 RaiZ wrote:
Lol at the zerg picking Terrans... I'm not sure they realize how harder it is to play in TvZ than it is in ZvT... I'd easily bet for a zerg winning the tournament if the zerg were forced to swtich to T and vice versa. If you think it's all about macroing behind with Terran, then please do so. Can't wait for you getting slaughtered by infestors or banes... And later on against ultras. Gogogo ! Hey it's just like terrans who think all zerg has to do is macro and A move! Hey, as a high Masters T I have always given Zergs the benefit of the doubt, but I started off racing Zerg and I'm beating Master Terrans effortlessly. Send in overlord scout EXACTLY what he's doing. Clean his push up with lings; counter attack 3rd. Just drone and tech to hive. No possible way for you to get dropped because you have by far best map vision in the game and the good static defense. And ZvP I just feel sorry for Toss. On maps where they can take a relatively easy third it's a cool matchup, but a lot of the maps are poop. Yes, it's obviously because Zerg is OP that you're beating Master Terrans effortlessly. Not because you already must have sufficiently good mechanics to be a high masters Terran, coupled with already extensive knowledge of the ZvT match up, making you understand more than most exactly when Terran is weak and what holes you can exploit. Yeah, no possible way for you to get dropped, I wonder how the best Zergs even lose anything to drop since they should always have perfect map vision and static defense everywhere.
Yes, when you see “the best Zergs” losing countless times their remote expands because they don't bother to make Spines despite floating thousands of minerals;
Yes, when you see “the best Zergs” a-moving their whole 120 supply army, BLs included, to deal with a mere 8 Marines drop;
Yes, when you see “the best Zergs” not spreading Overlords in air space even if their Terran opponent never made a Viking to clear them;
You understand why they lose games to drops. But that does not mean it should happen.
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On September 02 2012 23:30 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +Demuslim said on stream, confirmed by personal friend on an NA professional team that Blizz has confirmed to the pro-teams that fungal is being nurfed, changed to a slow instead of a stun. I have no official source obviously becasue they haven't officially released anything about it, but soon my brothers just wait and see, also its somewhere on Demu's vods. -Cygnus-x1Is this guy just messing with me or can anyone confirm that Demuslim did indeed say that? If so, then FINALLY!
I want to believe.
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I wonder why blizzard isnt hiring all of you guys
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On September 02 2012 23:09 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Still hilarious how people think playing fair is so horrible. Newsflash: one-Factory Reactor Hellion contain is cost-effectively broken by making a handful of Roaches. The Factory and 4 Hellions alone are 550/100, and that is discounting the Reactor and the lab-rax failsafe in case of Roach aggression. 4 Roaches and a Warren costs 500/100 and easily drives out the handful of Hellions. So do the math and stop spreading lies please. and this 4 Roaches did what? Yes, they can kill the Hellions in a direct batte but newsflash: Hellions are faster and do not need to engage in a direct battle. Yo use your roaches to secure a 3rd? No problem, I roast your natural because you cant defend and guard the drone to the 3rd. You use your roaches to defend from runbys? Great! So I can still kill tumors and deny your 3rd till I have established mine. Yes Roaches where used, but It was not Roaches only. It was Roaches, and Spines and Sim City and sometimes even Lings just to defend from 6 Hellions. Your math is flawed. You will use that techlab and that reactor and that factory to produce tank/marine all game long.
Needing a wall off is not a tragedy. That wall is built of stuff like Evo Chambers that you'll want anyway. It's a bit like complaining T or P needs to build a wall or they just straight die to mass lings, or that T often needs a Bunker in early game PvT because Stalkers are so damn good against Marines in very small numbers.
You can wall your nat, shoo the Hellions away with Roaches and mineral walk the Drone through the Queen keeping the wall up. Bang, third established, natural still walled off, Roaches can stay closer to nat when Queen needs to go Inject. Not very hard, nor insanely expensive.
Terran did have an early edge in the old meta (as they damn well should given other factors like everything in a normal lategame), yes, but it was nothing anywhere near what the current meta is. Plus even if the early situation was stale build-wise, it required good control from both - inattention meant Drones roasted or oops, Hellions dead, map control gone, ling-Roach knocking at your door. Not as severe as the Zerg penalty necessarily, but the one thing Reactor Hellion Expand was bad at was getting a good unit count up quick. So that small force at the door was indeed a pain in the ass and could easily delay the Terran third for a long time while the Zerg established his own.
If there was a problem with the Reactor Hellion contain it was that a very heavy two-Factory Reactor Hellion pressure and the Marauder-Hellion all-in could be masked as a standard Hellion expand. The Overlord buff should have alleviated this splendidly. The Queen buff was not only thoroughly unnecessary but massive overkill.
Or is the current situation honestly more healthy? The current situation where Zerg is ahead by default and at every stage of the game and can just drone up (4 extra Queens = 4 Roaches cost-wise. Similar combat effctiveness on ground, spreads creep and does antiair duty. You don't need to expend a few larvae or take as early gas and can thus make more Drones for better economy and more Drones). The current situation where Terran needs to go for very heavy pressure to force Zerg to deviate from droning at all or go for ludicrous economic greed if they want to get ahead of the Zerg. That greed is far more unsafe than the Zerg standard build.
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EPT
