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Situation Report: August 31, 2012 by David Kim - Page 48

Forum Index > SC2 General
950 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 46 47 48 All
DaRkVsLiGhT
Profile Joined July 2010
South Africa5 Posts
September 04 2012 13:50 GMT
#941
i will only use the raven if its speed is increased and its cost decreased
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
September 04 2012 13:55 GMT
#942
On September 04 2012 20:46 WaesumNinja wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2012 06:50 Qikz wrote:
On September 03 2012 20:54 WaesumNinja wrote:
broodlord infestor has shit for mobility, abuse that... you can also beat infestors with ghosts handily with either snipe or emp.



You know what. You've just made me realise what the problem is.

Due to the way the maps are designed with bases so close together, you can't actually do this because sacking one of your bases in this game means they're already at your other base straight away so it's either base race or fight them.

Bases need badly to be spread out more. Zerg has nydus to go between bases, Protoss has warp ins and Terrans can build production at them/wall off/planetary.

Bigger maps with more spread out bases would pretty much nerf the composition yeah, since you can't nydus broodlords. All other zerg units would be fine.

Wouldn't really large maps disfavor terrans though? Protoss and zerg would be capable of reinforcing quickly with nydus/warpin. The only thing i can think of really would be that terran moves his production facilities forward but it doesn't sound viable unless he's maxed already. I think mech would need a buff also since because of its poor mobility, it would need to be spread out to protect the bigger area around the bases.


You just build some production at your newer bases, kind of like how Protoss did it in Broodwar and heck even Terran did it (I know I did) with factories.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
kyllinghest
Profile Joined December 2011
Norway1607 Posts
September 04 2012 13:59 GMT
#943
Nestea and Fruidealer won the first GSLs, perhaps its time to roll back the changes done to balance and maps?
"NO" -Has
Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-04 14:36:10
September 04 2012 14:36 GMT
#944
On September 04 2012 22:29 SmexMyPocky wrote:
Now all terran needs is 100 gas vikings and 25 gas hellions. (:

I'd even pay 125 gas for the vikings, if they cost no minerals.

I also think 25 gas hellions would be over powered, as you could build up your infrastructure in parallel. But nice thinking for a zerg...

(:
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
September 04 2012 14:56 GMT
#945
On September 04 2012 22:59 kyllinghest wrote:
Nestea and Fruidealer won the first GSLs, perhaps its time to roll back the changes done to balance and maps?


For the map changes, there is whole forum and multiple teams of non-blizzard related people who are nearly exclusively able to do that... if it was wanted or needed. Thing is, that those people are actually making those maps people like you want. Rush distances of Ohana, Cloud Kingdom and other maps aren't really much longer than Xel Naga Caverns, maps with too many bases that only zerg could take have been removed and replaced with maps that where all races can macro on.


And yeah, if you want to roll back all the changes, then I think it should really be ALL the changes starting in the beta.
Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
September 04 2012 17:30 GMT
#946
On September 04 2012 23:56 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2012 22:59 kyllinghest wrote:
Nestea and Fruidealer won the first GSLs, perhaps its time to roll back the changes done to balance and maps?


For the map changes, there is whole forum and multiple teams of non-blizzard related people who are nearly exclusively able to do that... if it was wanted or needed. Thing is, that those people are actually making those maps people like you want. Rush distances of Ohana, Cloud Kingdom and other maps aren't really much longer than Xel Naga Caverns, maps with too many bases that only zerg could take have been removed and replaced with maps that where all races can macro on.


And yeah, if you want to roll back all the changes, then I think it should really be ALL the changes starting in the beta.

Honestly.. I'm not sure anymore, if 1 supply 2 armor roaches are that bad for terran..
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-04 21:26:13
September 04 2012 19:43 GMT
#947
On September 05 2012 02:30 Thrombozyt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2012 23:56 Big J wrote:
On September 04 2012 22:59 kyllinghest wrote:
Nestea and Fruidealer won the first GSLs, perhaps its time to roll back the changes done to balance and maps?


For the map changes, there is whole forum and multiple teams of non-blizzard related people who are nearly exclusively able to do that... if it was wanted or needed. Thing is, that those people are actually making those maps people like you want. Rush distances of Ohana, Cloud Kingdom and other maps aren't really much longer than Xel Naga Caverns, maps with too many bases that only zerg could take have been removed and replaced with maps that where all races can macro on.


And yeah, if you want to roll back all the changes, then I think it should really be ALL the changes starting in the beta.

Honestly.. I'm not sure anymore, if 1 supply 2 armor roaches are that bad for terran..

and 20HP/sec burrow regeneration

Broodlords, Infestors and Corruptors used to be "pretty good" as well...

But yeah, Terrans would also get 65sec build time barracks, 40sec bunkers and energy thors (which were actually quite worse, apart from the 50energy strike canons, due to their size and no air splash) from that. Oh wait, Terran actually has all of that

on a side note:
+ Show Spoiler +
Is anyone else thinking, that everything that was ever nerfed because it was too strong vs zerg is a direct result of it being designed against 1 supply 2armor 3range roaches?
Like reapers: probably not that big of a problem, with the prenerf roaches. 2dmg less per shot from reapers and more roaches, might have been enough (4range roaches were on the same patch as nitro pack, depot/barracks nerf)
Like snipe: mass ghost endgame Terran (like 30-50 ghosts) --> build 100-150 roaches. 30 full energy ghosts can snipe 60 roaches, which is nearly max right now (if you add workers). But with only 1supply...
Like 2rax: if there is the possibility for a 1base roach opening, with roaches that only receive 3dmg per shot from marines... probably not such an interesting build

that's not to say those roaches weren't imba, but it feels like by nerfing them, blizzard opened the box of the zerg pandora
archides
Profile Joined November 2010
United States31 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-04 21:56:18
September 04 2012 21:54 GMT
#948
On September 04 2012 19:36 Disastorm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2012 18:29 Aetherial wrote:
On September 04 2012 18:23 Thrombozyt wrote:
I think terran players are enraged by two points, that unfortunately get mixed up and twisted around.

1) Out of the sudden, Blizzard is careful not to change the game too much and rather lets the meta game evolve. That's for two changes that have a rather minor effect.
This is the opposite of giving two significant buffs when the meta-game is balanced seemingly out of the blue. Especially if one change completely trashes the main build and win % of one race.

2) The reasoning by Blizzard along the line of "One Terran did great and another one did OK in one major tournament - thus it appears there isn't a problem. Especially as one Terran did use ravens as we want and even won the game".
This suck thrice. First of all, the same reason could be applied to the Zerg's dark age, where Fruitdealer and Nestea still won the GSL. Did that prevent Terran nerfs or Zerg buffs? Nope! Secondly they took the worst snapshot possible when they look at a tourney where MVP, the guy with the most GSL titles, who is hailed as probably the best player in the world, beats a bunch of Zergs that are good, but NOT GSL calibre. Even MVP only used the ravens on a giant map that is prone to be split in half, so to conclude that ravens are fine because a superior player could make them work on a single map is ludicrous. Finally there is the comparison to the queen buff, which allegedly should help against the 'imba 4-6 hellion contain'. This contain as not a problem at all at the pro-level and tourney scene. Yet the buff still came through.

For those two major reasons many terran players are frustrated and annoyed, because it's a clear display of double standards, because David Kim still seems to only remember the ages of Zerg tears.


Well said, exactly my thoughts... double standards during the balancing process.

It could also be that they are learning and like you said "out of the blue" they decided to let the metagame take its course because thats the better course of action. Like they said, its the first time they are doing this, and of course there always has to be a first time for everything.


It is not that they are learning, and not the first time they are doing this. Look at the 1.33 infestor in 2011, IIRC this was when Blizzard said they didn't want to make any kneejerk reactions to the game. The fact is we are witnessing the double standard once again, DKim and the balance team are not trying out some new wait-and-see approach. Blizz has always been extremely quick on the trigger (one tournament is all the evidence they need) when it comes to finding reasons to nerf Terran strategies, but very slow and like "let's wait and see what happens for a few months" when it comes to strategies that are powerful against Terran. The double standard is clear as day bro
Cheddar
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
September 05 2012 00:16 GMT
#949
If you look at things objectively, it is impossible to say that this is anything other than unfair. The game has achieved relative balance a long time ago. They made so many changes that were unnecessary unless you inherently favored the other 2 races.

Warp Prism's never needed to be buffed. It was fine before. Does it really matter at this point? It's a little more annoying, but negligible. But the reasoning that they wanted players to use Warp Prisms more was just bad. Players were already using them.

The Barracks build time didn't really need the nerf. Zergs had already gotten good at defending 2 rax, making proxy rax the only thing to worry about on these larger maps.

The Raven buff was nice, but still insufficient. There were MANY Terrans practicing Raven styles (with mediocre success). At the end, they deemed the standard Hellion into Marine/Tank/Medivac play to be much better. They need more buffs to be truly competitive. The current round of buffs might've helped, but still likely not to be enough.

Protoss upgrade costs (aside from Shields) did not need the reduction that they got. They already had the ability to speed up their upgrades, so what rationale could you have for giving them the cheapest upgrades across all 3 races? Even considering that they have the most dangerous deathball. It's like they WANTED to fuck Zergs over with this and make sure that at the very least they maintained an upgrade advantage over Terrans all game lone.

Changing Snipe modified an ability that had a RIDICULOUSLY high skill cap compared to anything else in the game. 6 Snipes to kill a Broodlord and 11 Snipes to kill an Ultralisk. Even considering you do things perfectly, how many people can fully utilize snipe in the same way Mvp did? Maybe taking away 10 damage, but taking away 20 was pretty extreme (44% of it's damage output, how many times do you see a nerf this extreme?).

With the larger maps, the Overlord change was warranted, but the Queen range buff? They said they were happy with the balance of the game and they do something that would drastically change the game. So clearly, they weren't happy with the work that the best Terrans had to do in order to get the results they did. They wanted more.

With the issue of the 1-1-1, Blizzard took a while, but at the very least they threw in a bunch of arbitrary buffs for Protoss and nerfs for Terran. In the end, I agree with the buff to Immortals (a bit borderline, but still agree). And now, long after these changes, the methods behind defending the 1-1-1 has been discovered. Even though they took a long time and didn't even need to do anything, they intervened for Protoss.

With the issue of the deathball, Infestors were buffed, and it destroyed the deathball as we knew it (then). It took a while, but it happened.

With the issue of Infestors, they got nerfed twice. It took a lot of EVERYONE saying that Infestors were broke, but it happened.

With the issue of the Zerg deathball (Infestor/Broodlord) against Terran, they said they would wait and give Terrans a time to figure something out. Terrans got better at Viking timings and experimented with Snipe. It took FOREVER before Blizzard ever did anything about the Zerg deathball. And guess what they did? THEY NERFED SNIPE! YEAH! They didn't help Terrans when they asked for help, they stabbed them in the back. They didn't get ANY buffs leading up to this. Instead, they got nerfs to the Barracks, blue flame, EMP radius, and Zerg got a buff to the Ultralisk. WTF?!

With the issue of the game being balanced, Blizzard complained to themselves that they felt the game was balanced, spectators complained that TvZ was too awesome to look at (until the player they liked lost). So what do they do? They throw in a 100% unnecessary and excessive buff to Queens. Not +1 range, but +2 range.

After 3 months, they declared that they would implement changes to help fix the game. A few weeks after, they say, "NOPE! You guys are fine! The game is balanced! Moving on!" We waited patiently everytime. We took the abuse up the ass. We adapted EVERY DAMN TIME. And what does Blizzard do? They nerf us. They ignore us. We don't usually ask for buffs. We've dealt with nerfs (some cried when mech TvT became weaker, but we realized that blue flame was too much against Zerg). We just kept playing the damn game.

And there's the issue that many diamond and masters Zergs go for the Roach/Bane bust and comment that they win nearly every game, if not every game, using that same build. Terrans have not complained about it (they might've quit the game because of it, given that I hardly see Terrans on the ladder anymore). Should something be done about it? If you gave a damn about 1-1-1, then yes. Will something be done about it? Probably not.

This shit didn't really happen in Broodwar. Something is broken? Let the players figure it out themselves. Something is broken in SC2? Does it involve Terran? NERF TERRAN! But it's the Terrans that need help? NERF THEM ANYWAY! Maybe they should've spent more time in the beta phase. Maybe they should've waited a longer time before they made the changes they constantly make. It's like they've gotten so used to intervening that they just got bored with patch 1.4.3 and decided to just throw something in.

I just wish that if they insist on constantly changing the game that they be fair about it. If not, then avoid changing the game altogether and let the players decide the metagame. Did they screw up with SC2? Yes. Was it as bad as everyone thought it was? Yes and no. Marauders weren't as insanely broke as many people thought they were, but the fact is Terran has more micro opportunity and it has a large affect on how games play out. Maybe we would've gotten to the same place if we just let the game be developed by the players. Yes, some things NEEDED to be changed (Stim timing, Archons to massive, and Warp Gate timing off the top of my head), but you can do that all at once when it's been globally deemed that these changes NEED to be made after the game becomes fully (or near fully) explored.
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
September 05 2012 00:30 GMT
#950
On September 04 2012 22:59 kyllinghest wrote:
Nestea and Fruidealer won the first GSLs, perhaps its time to roll back the changes done to balance and maps?


As happy as many Terrans would be given the information they have now (and the fact that they were the ONLY race to get nerfs since and the other two races have only gotten buffs since then), that would be unfair to the other races. T.T Some of the changes were fully necessary to the game. SOME.

Again, I know you're joking...


On September 04 2012 22:50 DaRkVsLiGhT wrote:
i will only use the raven if its speed is increased and its cost decreased


I'll only use it if the energy cost of Seeker Missile is reduced to 100 energy or less (75 would be nice) and goes to a range of 9. PDD and Auto Turret also needs a 2-3 casting range increase (area of the PDD itself is fine). The cost of the Raven itself is fine (could be less mineral intensive, but oh well). Terrans almost always float gas anyway in the late game. Raven cost isn't a problem. Speed is also fine. It's just the cast range that makes it terrible... And Seeker Missile needs another speed buff. It blows up your own units too... Sure, it can help kill Ultralisks quickly, but if used even a second too slowly, it could mean the death of many of your own units. I feel like Ghosts and Ravens should be the lategame focus of Terran...



Actually... In retrospect... I think reverting the patches, letting the players figure the game out for a year or two, then see which changes actually needed to be made. I feel like 5 rax reaper, Warp Gate timing, and Archons to Massive would be the obvious ones to keep. Stim at first seemed like something that needed to be changed, but that was when maps were crazy small. Maybe on these larger maps, it isn't as much of an issue. Honestly, how would the older patches (with a few key changes) function on the current maps. How would they function if we make the maps bigger? Is there any way we can make the maps crazy small and balance the game? How about a fully balanced game on a medium sized map that retains a mostly balanced game on larger maps and slightly smaller maps? Honestly Blizzard probably jumped the gun WAY too early in changing the game.
Scila
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1849 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-05 00:36:40
September 05 2012 00:36 GMT
#951
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 05 2012 09:16 RyLai wrote:
If you look at things objectively, it is impossible to say that this is anything other than unfair. The game has achieved relative balance a long time ago. They made so many changes that were unnecessary unless you inherently favored the other 2 races.

Warp Prism's never needed to be buffed. It was fine before. Does it really matter at this point? It's a little more annoying, but negligible. But the reasoning that they wanted players to use Warp Prisms more was just bad. Players were already using them.

The Barracks build time didn't really need the nerf. Zergs had already gotten good at defending 2 rax, making proxy rax the only thing to worry about on these larger maps.

The Raven buff was nice, but still insufficient. There were MANY Terrans practicing Raven styles (with mediocre success). At the end, they deemed the standard Hellion into Marine/Tank/Medivac play to be much better. They need more buffs to be truly competitive. The current round of buffs might've helped, but still likely not to be enough.

Protoss upgrade costs (aside from Shields) did not need the reduction that they got. They already had the ability to speed up their upgrades, so what rationale could you have for giving them the cheapest upgrades across all 3 races? Even considering that they have the most dangerous deathball. It's like they WANTED to fuck Zergs over with this and make sure that at the very least they maintained an upgrade advantage over Terrans all game lone.

Changing Snipe modified an ability that had a RIDICULOUSLY high skill cap compared to anything else in the game. 6 Snipes to kill a Broodlord and 11 Snipes to kill an Ultralisk. Even considering you do things perfectly, how many people can fully utilize snipe in the same way Mvp did? Maybe taking away 10 damage, but taking away 20 was pretty extreme (44% of it's damage output, how many times do you see a nerf this extreme?).

With the larger maps, the Overlord change was warranted, but the Queen range buff? They said they were happy with the balance of the game and they do something that would drastically change the game. So clearly, they weren't happy with the work that the best Terrans had to do in order to get the results they did. They wanted more.

With the issue of the 1-1-1, Blizzard took a while, but at the very least they threw in a bunch of arbitrary buffs for Protoss and nerfs for Terran. In the end, I agree with the buff to Immortals (a bit borderline, but still agree). And now, long after these changes, the methods behind defending the 1-1-1 has been discovered. Even though they took a long time and didn't even need to do anything, they intervened for Protoss.

With the issue of the deathball, Infestors were buffed, and it destroyed the deathball as we knew it (then). It took a while, but it happened.

With the issue of Infestors, they got nerfed twice. It took a lot of EVERYONE saying that Infestors were broke, but it happened.

With the issue of the Zerg deathball (Infestor/Broodlord) against Terran, they said they would wait and give Terrans a time to figure something out. Terrans got better at Viking timings and experimented with Snipe. It took FOREVER before Blizzard ever did anything about the Zerg deathball. And guess what they did? THEY NERFED SNIPE! YEAH! They didn't help Terrans when they asked for help, they stabbed them in the back. They didn't get ANY buffs leading up to this. Instead, they got nerfs to the Barracks, blue flame, EMP radius, and Zerg got a buff to the Ultralisk. WTF?!

With the issue of the game being balanced, Blizzard complained to themselves that they felt the game was balanced, spectators complained that TvZ was too awesome to look at (until the player they liked lost). So what do they do? They throw in a 100% unnecessary and excessive buff to Queens. Not +1 range, but +2 range.

After 3 months, they declared that they would implement changes to help fix the game. A few weeks after, they say, "NOPE! You guys are fine! The game is balanced! Moving on!" We waited patiently everytime. We took the abuse up the ass. We adapted EVERY DAMN TIME. And what does Blizzard do? They nerf us. They ignore us. We don't usually ask for buffs. We've dealt with nerfs (some cried when mech TvT became weaker, but we realized that blue flame was too much against Zerg). We just kept playing the damn game.

And there's the issue that many diamond and masters Zergs go for the Roach/Bane bust and comment that they win nearly every game, if not every game, using that same build. Terrans have not complained about it (they might've quit the game because of it, given that I hardly see Terrans on the ladder anymore). Should something be done about it? If you gave a damn about 1-1-1, then yes. Will something be done about it? Probably not.

This shit didn't really happen in Broodwar. Something is broken? Let the players figure it out themselves. Something is broken in SC2? Does it involve Terran? NERF TERRAN! But it's the Terrans that need help? NERF THEM ANYWAY! Maybe they should've spent more time in the beta phase. Maybe they should've waited a longer time before they made the changes they constantly make. It's like they've gotten so used to intervening that they just got bored with patch 1.4.3 and decided to just throw something in.

I just wish that if they insist on constantly changing the game that they be fair about it. If not, then avoid changing the game altogether and let the players decide the metagame. Did they screw up with SC2? Yes. Was it as bad as everyone thought it was? Yes and no. Marauders weren't as insanely broke as many people thought they were, but the fact is Terran has more micro opportunity and it has a large affect on how games play out. Maybe we would've gotten to the same place if we just let the game be developed by the players. Yes, some things NEEDED to be changed (Stim timing, Archons to massive, and Warp Gate timing off the top of my head), but you can do that all at once when it's been globally deemed that these changes NEED to be made after the game becomes fully (or near fully) explored.



Quoting for truth, excellent post. Albeit SC2 is the best balanced and probably only real competitive RTS right now, Blizzard could've made it so much better without all of the ridiculous overbuffing / overnerfing, especially favoring against Terran. Your point about warp prisms is a really good example - they didn't need the buff, they were already perfectly fine, but Protoss didn't use them because they didn't NEED to.

Obviously stuff like Reapers needed to be nerfed, but most things should've been left untouched (like the perfectly balanced snipe that required a ton of control and could only be utilized by top tier terrans to have an even footing in lategame TvZ).
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
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