EPTSituation Report: August 31, 2012 by David Kim - Page 46
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On September 03 2012 18:20 Clarity_nl wrote: This. All the people complaining that because of MVP it's harder for other terrans..... I thought everyone was interested in the game being balanced at the very top level? I remember complaints because of patches where they made matchups more balanced in the bronze/silver league area, but you guys complain when they don't do it for low/mid masters? MVP raised the bar, you follow suit or you fall behind, this has been the way for every race. Just be happy you have someone to copy/look up to. Zerg didn't have this for a while when they were losing, and neither did protoss. If the game truly was balanced at the highest level all the koreans terrans would be dominating, because they're fucking better than the rest of the pros with few exceptions. The fact that foreign zergs and protosses can keep up with korean terrans speaks volumes about the game balance. MVP raised the bar so Terran got nerfed. That's not balance. That's just knee jerk nerfing based on individual players skills and it's absolutely retarded. It's like giving Spain additional limiting penalties in the world cup because they're awesome as a team. Spain is supposed to dominate at the world cups because they're superior to other teams. The same goes to players like MVP. There is no purpose to have e-celebs and pros if Blizzard keeps nerfing the race of whoever is doing the best currently, either individually or because of the metagame to keep balance statistics at 50%. It's not true balance and it never has been. Every change Blizzard has made since the ghost snipe nerf has been for the worse. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
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Mephtral
Sweden60 Posts
On September 03 2012 21:00 Dalavita wrote: If the game truly was balanced at the highest level all the koreans terrans would be dominating, because they're fucking better than the rest of the pros with few exceptions. The fact that foreign zergs and protosses can keep up with korean terrans speaks volumes about the game balance. MVP raised the bar so Terran got nerfed. That's not balance. That's just knee jerk nerfing based on individual players skills and it's absolutely retarded. It's like giving Spain additional limiting penalties in the world cup because they're awesome as a team. Spain is supposed to dominate at the world cups because they're superior to other teams. The same goes to players like MVP. There is no purpose to have e-celebs and pros if Blizzard keeps nerfing the race of whoever is doing the best currently, either individually or because of the metagame to keep balance statistics at 50%. It's not true balance and it never has been. Every change Blizzard has made since the ghost snipe nerf has been for the worse. "If the game truly was balanced at the highest level all the koreans terrans would be dominating, because they're fucking better than the rest of the pros with few exceptions." ...Please do show me the proof of this. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On September 03 2012 21:34 Mephtral wrote: "If the game truly was balanced at the highest level all the koreans terrans would be dominating, because they're fucking better than the rest of the pros with few exceptions." ...Please do show me the proof of this. Watch pro players play since the beginning of the game and it's easy to see. Or do a search of one of my earlier posts where I did provide arguments for this standpoint. It's not too far back in my post count afaik. Haven't posted much lately. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9948 Posts
On September 03 2012 21:15 althaz wrote: I think the main problem with this situation report is that it is taking current events into account quite well, except it's ignoring the fact that most of the top zergs are playing pretty poorly at the moment. There's some Protoss in good form, there's some Terrans in good form (Taeja!), but the only zerg playing halfway decently at the moment is Leenock. This is the same thing that Kim is saying though. The zerg players now have to have some time to adjust to all the new terran strategies coming out. This should balance itself out. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On September 03 2012 22:00 Dalavita wrote: Watch pro players play since the beginning of the game and it's easy to see. Or do a search of one of my earlier posts where I did provide arguments for this standpoint. It's not too far back in my post count afaik. Haven't posted much lately. While I agree that Koreans tend to spend more time practicing, playing, and improving, to just say that "they're better, and should never lose to top foreigners" seems incorrect to me. And it's not that Terran got nerfed b/c MVP did well, they just didn't get the buffs that were being playtested as merely possible to begin with. At no point did Bliz ever come out and say, "this is what we're going to give you, 100% no questions asked," and then take it all back. They said they were playtesting things to see how they looked. Or perhaps there was a metagame shift as the zerg buffs came in, and the zerg were becoming more solid mechanically to begin with. To dismiss all foreigners as immediately bad is just poor, in my opinion. Also, i feel like that's a poor analogy, (the Spanish national team). That'd be the equivalent of waiting until their armies were about to fight, then all of a sudden half of MVP's army just gets vaporized by nothing at all. I personally feel like the game is relatively well balanced at almost all levels. | ||
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Elitios
France164 Posts
It would solve some of the balance issues for sure since more diversity in the map pool also means increasing the number of viable styles. Moreover, most tournament have a veto system to level the playfield. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
77% of terrans would pick Zerg thinking this would be the easiest/strongest race to play if untrained. 57% of zergs would pick terran thinking this is the easiest/strongest race to play if untrained. 53% of toss would pick zerg thinking this is the easiest/strongest race to play if untrained. Interpretation: * Terran thinks Zerg is very OP * Zergs think Terran is OP * Protoss think Z/T are equal  | ||
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Antihero
United States29 Posts
On September 01 2012 01:15 c0ldfusion wrote: Yup, this is exactly how Blizzard balances this game. They just look at tournament results see which race is winning and stop them from winning. -_- Truer words have never been spoke. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 04 2012 02:47 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: interpretation of the poll in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=365039¤tpage=44#864 : 77% of terrans would pick Zerg thinking this would be the easiest/strongest race to play if untrained. 57% of zergs would pick terran thinking this is the easiest/strongest race to play if untrained. 53% of toss would pick zerg thinking this is the easiest/strongest race to play if untrained. Interpretation: * Terran thinks Zerg is very OP * Zergs think Terran is OP * Protoss think Z/T are equal No, you certainly cannot interpret the answers to your poll this way. You asked people which race they would play in an offrace tournament, not if they think said race is the easiest or the strongest. The two or three aspects would obviously be the same for an unknown part of the answers, but that's the point, you don't know if someone answering “I would play Protoss” tells this because a) he thinks Protoss is the strongest and/or b) he thinks Protoss is the easiest and/or c) he thinks Protoss would be more fun and/or d) he has more Protoss knowledge than his other offrace, etc., etc.. Besides, drawing percentages out of 40-50 answers does not make any sense. If you want to do things properly, just ask people “Which race do you think is the easiest/strongest/etc.” Not that answers would be really interesting given the average knowledge of players but at least the question would be clearer. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
"terran is doing better in tournaments, we're going to put this change on pause for a while and let the metagame develop" instead they explicitly talked about mvp and his raven strategies vs foreigner zergs and nestea (who in all honestly, amoves, defends drops and techs as slowly as EU zergs) he hangs around on lair tech way too long, just like these euro zergs, spending multiple $thousands of mineral/gas on a midgame all in. players like mvp just sit, gobble up the all in and take two more bases and start massing ravens Why would they base the changes on this? in a normal game with competent KR zerg (not nestea), they dont waste 1k gas on mutas, and then 2k gas coinflipping on a baneling mutaling all in and then go into broodlords the most gas intensive, immobile army comp on the biggest map in the game. by the time nestea gets his broods across and deals with the defensive PF's his broods are invalidated. that's why koreans are starting to use nydus and take the middle bases earlier as Z on this map. edit: the map i'm talking about is metropolis. a lot of KR zergs say this map is terran favored so they try to end it early with baneling / ling all ins or muta ling bane timings. there is evidence of this everywhere, blizzard just chooses to ignore the failed all ins by zerg and pretend there is some new hyper viable terran strategy like massing spell casters/turtling. thats not a new strategy. in my opinion, that is a response to KR zergs playing extremely cheesy for multiple major tournaments in a row on this map.. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12043 Posts
On September 03 2012 20:54 WaesumNinja wrote: broodlord infestor has shit for mobility, abuse that... you can also beat infestors with ghosts handily with either snipe or emp. You know what. You've just made me realise what the problem is. Due to the way the maps are designed with bases so close together, you can't actually do this because sacking one of your bases in this game means they're already at your other base straight away so it's either base race or fight them. Bases need badly to be spread out more. Zerg has nydus to go between bases, Protoss has warp ins and Terrans can build production at them/wall off/planetary. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On September 04 2012 06:50 Qikz wrote: You know what. You've just made me realise what the problem is. Due to the way the maps are designed with bases so close together, you can't actually do this because sacking one of your bases in this game means they're already at your other base straight away so it's either base race or fight them. Bases need badly to be spread out more. Zerg has nydus to go between bases, Protoss has warp ins and Terrans can build production at them/wall off/planetary. I think a big problem with Planetary defence is that they are immobile, slow shooting big buildings. That means that those 30 well microed lings run right past without too many major problems. I think the widow mine will help that a lot though in the upcoming expansion. | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On September 04 2012 06:50 Qikz wrote: You know what. You've just made me realise what the problem is. Due to the way the maps are designed with bases so close together, you can't actually do this because sacking one of your bases in this game means they're already at your other base straight away so it's either base race or fight them. Bases need badly to be spread out more. Zerg has nydus to go between bases, Protoss has warp ins and Terrans can build production at them/wall off/planetary. protoss wouldn't be able to take a third vs zergs if you spread them out, it would break the matchup completely | ||
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Hds
France200 Posts
Top tier Koreans or non-koreans? What about lower than them, like, GM, Master, etc? lol ^.^ | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On September 04 2012 06:58 nkr wrote: protoss wouldn't be able to take a third vs zergs if you spread them out, it would break the matchup completely Arent protoss getting recall on nexus? That along with warp in and canons should be enough. | ||
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Kamwah
United Kingdom724 Posts
Yet the top Zergs NEVER had problems that equated the need for the Queen buff. Even Stephano who is arguably below the top Korean Zs (not by much) never had a problem. | ||
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