On September 02 2012 19:01 MilesTeg wrote: I think the problem for a lot of people is that this sort of discussion becomes unbearable for anyone except Terran whiners.
It leads to a situation where you guys are mostly talking to yourselves, and to the false notion that people agree with you and that you're right. But really, Kim knows a lot better than you.
The problem is that the sc devs always give terrible answers for what they're trying to convey.
If Kim had said "we feel that terran players are starting to improve and figure out how to combat the recent changes but we're keeping an eye on it. currently we feel the changes that were planned would not fix any potential issues with the matchup so we're going to wait on it and make adjustments from there."
instead he references one of the worlds BEST players taking out vastly inferior players, and nestea who did the equivilant of never splitting your marines in combat and saying banelings are fine (and by that i mean if you never split your marines, banes would be flat out OP), as reasons for ravens never being buffed which is something that just 100% should happen honestly. it makes him sound like they aren't aware of what they're doing at all even though they put in alot of analysis to back up their claims.
but at the end of the day, when DRG was almost unbeatable in TvZ people said `we cant all be like drg`` and when it`s reversed and only 1-2 terrans are able to produce any sort of semi-consistent (but not huge) results then everyone else just needs to l2p.
terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans .. on the other hand race distribution implicates that terran is harder to play starting at GM. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all . but this is EU only, in korea, americas the game looks pretty much perfectly balanced
keep on voting guys (though this thread is probably biased)
Poll: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick
I am Terran and pick Zerg (89)
42%
I am Zerg and pick Terran (31)
15%
I am Terran and pick Protoss (24)
11%
I am Protoss and pick Zerg (24)
11%
I am Zerg and pick Protoss (23)
11%
I am Protoss and pick Terran (22)
10%
213 total votes
Your vote: if you had to play in an offrace tournament, which race would you pick
(Vote): I am Zerg and pick Terran (Vote): I am Zerg and pick Protoss (Vote): I am Terran and pick Zerg (Vote): I am Terran and pick Protoss (Vote): I am Protoss and pick Zerg (Vote): I am Protoss and pick Terran
On September 02 2012 19:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans ..
Except that:
1. ForGG and Freakhill are the same person. 2. GM ladder is volatile and doesn't say anything about balance or not. 3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
On September 02 2012 19:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans ..
Except that:
1. ForGG and Freakhill are the same person. 2. GM ladder is volatile and doesn't say anything about balance or not. 3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
i was referring to racial distribution amongst leagues. happy's winrate probably declined, because the game is more balanced now .. wasn't he the guy abusing mass hellion 90% of ZvT ?
On September 02 2012 19:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans ..
Except that:
1. ForGG and Freakhill are the same person. 2. GM ladder is volatile and doesn't say anything about balance or not. 3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
happy's winrate probably declined, because the game is more balanced now
Or because of Blizzard's unilateral decision, lesser Zergs who would stand little chance against him are now able to compete with him thanks to 12'45 Ultralisk Cavern or Greater Spire becoming standard.
On September 02 2012 19:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans ..
Except that:
1. ForGG and Freakhill are the same person. 2. GM ladder is volatile and doesn't say anything about balance or not. 3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
happy's winrate probably declined, because the game is more balanced now
Or because of Blizzard's unilateral decision, lesser Zergs who would stand little chance against him are now able to compete with him thanks to 12'45 Ultralisk Cavern or Greater Spire becoming standard.
3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
So an 80% winrate was balanced and 65% is not... i can see why nobody gives a shit on whining terrans. Happy ABUSED mass hellions so hard that most of his 80% wins happened before the 10 minute mark, now he cant do that anymore and guess what? His winrate drops accordingly. The more whiny terrans cry about patchzergs the more im sure the real problem is that terrans who where carried by race now play at the level they really belong too
But hey... it doesnt bother me because it doesnt affect me.
3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
So an 80% winrate was balanced and 65% is not... i can see why nobody gives a shit on whining terrans. Happy ABUSED mass hellions so hard that most of his 80% wins happened before the 10 minute mark, now he cant do that anymore and guess what? His winrate drops accordingly. The more whiny terrans cry about patchzergs the more im sure the real problem is that terrans who where carried by race now play at the level they really belong too
But hey... it doesnt bother me because it doesnt affect me.
Howwas is it possible to abuse hellions? Making lots of hellions was imba? Damn it, wish i knew that before they buffed queen
The more whiny terrans cry about patchzergs the more im sure the real problem is that terrans who where carried by race now play at the level they really belong too
Strong logic here. 45% more Zergs than Terrans in GM league with similiar general population is normal. Earlier when number of players were similair in GM, Terrrans were carried by their race. Zerg players are just better.
3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
So an 80% winrate was balanced and 65% is not... i can see why nobody gives a shit on whining terrans. Happy ABUSED mass hellions so hard that most of his 80% wins happened before the 10 minute mark, now he cant do that anymore and guess what? His winrate drops accordingly. The more whiny terrans cry about patchzergs the more im sure the real problem is that terrans who where carried by race now play at the level they really belong too
But hey... it doesnt bother me because it doesnt affect me.
the problem is if you let zerg alone until min 12 you lost as terran, blizzard forces terran to makes something happen early-mid game but on the other hand shuts down every possible harass (sporecrawler root time/queen buff) and gives zerg the possibility to scout every incoming timing push perfectly with overlords on every corner seeing every fucking unit that leaves the terran base.....so still, terrans have to rely on some kind of allinish play and/or some kind of risky moves like helion runbuys and so on......
once there was a time where a really good player would never try to do a helionrunby because its just some kind of gamble, nowadays you HAVE to do them and hope the best.....what kind of game is it, where all you can do is hope that you opponent fails? And thats exactly the reason why DRG says, as long as the zerg doesn t makes a mistake he wins regardless of how good the terran player plays.
On September 02 2012 20:13 Charon1979 wrote: So an 80% winrate was balanced and 65% is not... i can see why nobody gives a shit on whining terrans. Happy ABUSED mass hellions so hard that most of his 80% wins happened before the 10 minute mark, now he cant do that anymore and guess what? His winrate drops accordingly.
Makes zero sense but whatever. Evolution Chamber/Queen/Spines walls already existed before the patch, so if Happy was really winning Zergs only using “mass Hellions” (what do you refer to anyway? 2 fact Reactor Hellions?) then it was their own damn fault. I remember a Mvp vs DRG game on TDA in which Mvp did try 2x Reactor Hellions, DRG foiled it so easily with a simple wall...
And yes, if someone is as dominant on a given ladder as to win 4 games out of 5, seeing lesser players from a certain race start to win a lot more against him after the patch raises legitimate questions.
On September 02 2012 20:13 Charon1979 wrote: The more whiny terrans cry about patchzergs the more im sure the real problem is that terrans who where carried by race now play at the level they really belong too
Actually it's quite the opposite as proven in recent tournaments with GM European Zergs suddenly able to compete with Code A/S Terrans.
On September 02 2012 19:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans ..
Except that:
1. ForGG and Freakhill are the same person. 2. GM ladder is volatile and doesn't say anything about balance or not. 3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
happy's winrate probably declined, because the game is more balanced now
Or because of Blizzard's unilateral decision, lesser Zergs who would stand little chance against him are now able to compete with him thanks to 12'45 Ultralisk Cavern or Greater Spire becoming standard.
3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
So an 80% winrate was balanced and 65% is not... i can see why nobody gives a shit on whining terrans. Happy ABUSED mass hellions so hard that most of his 80% wins happened before the 10 minute mark, now he cant do that anymore and guess what? His winrate drops accordingly. The more whiny terrans cry about patchzergs the more im sure the real problem is that terrans who where carried by race now play at the level they really belong too
But hey... it doesnt bother me because it doesnt affect me.
Wut? Happy is an awesome player - he and Kas have high win rates on ladder because they both play an ungodly amount of games. Wasn't it just recently that Kas scored 1000 wins in a single season?
I wouldn't mind a few more zerg buffs and toss maybe too, I might stop playing zerg though as its getting a bit to simple to win and feels like playing some sort of tower defense game already. But it is always nice to have a hardmode race. And the harder it is the more people go that complain about it heh. They ruined random though ... dicing zerg is like dicing a free win after you rolled terran a bit too often.
But a bit more serious now, it would be a shame if they leave WoL in the state that it is now (and move on to HotS), every zerg matchup revolves on infestors + infested terrans + fungals to force a fight against an army that didn't cost anything, just to face a wall of defensive buildings that cannot be broken with your weakened army. (though lately people waste their army to keep the wall weak and then break through if the zerg doesn't replenish it enough and it is fairly effective i must say)
Protoss Players:Mabye if we encourage zerg complaints,nobody will realise we are the strongest race right now(in terms of winrates). Found that post on us.battle.net\ EDIT: here it is 2nd post
On September 02 2012 20:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 20:01 TheDwf wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans ..
Except that:
1. ForGG and Freakhill are the same person. 2. GM ladder is volatile and doesn't say anything about balance or not. 3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
happy's winrate probably declined, because the game is more balanced now
Or because of Blizzard's unilateral decision, lesser Zergs who would stand little chance against him are now able to compete with him thanks to 12'45 Ultralisk Cavern or Greater Spire becoming standard.
On September 02 2012 20:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 20:01 TheDwf wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:37 TheDwf wrote:
On September 02 2012 19:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: terrans have highest winrate in eu GM, so it cannot be that hard. top 10 has 6 terrans ..
Except that:
1. ForGG and Freakhill are the same person. 2. GM ladder is volatile and doesn't say anything about balance or not. 3. Happy and Kas had between 75 and 80% winrates previous seasons, why do they have ~65% now?
happy's winrate probably declined, because the game is more balanced now
Or because of Blizzard's unilateral decision, lesser Zergs who would stand little chance against him are now able to compete with him thanks to 12'45 Ultralisk Cavern or Greater Spire becoming standard.
The range upgrade for queen only helped against abusive contains with four hellions and the zerg could do nothing that was going to be a bang for the buck solution, I assume that the intention were prevent that by having the queen having the same range as hellions. You could go roaches but that wasn't a great solution to the contain issue, and getting more queens didn't help either. Hellion run-by is still possible for terran, but they are not as abusive as before when 6 hellions literaly could destroy with not much the zerg could do about it without playing safe on two base and no go out with queens, which led to stale possibilities for the zerg player.
However they should really revert the bunker requirement for barrack which is just silly, if the terran build rax that early in the map he has to deal insane damage which is proportional to the risk he is taking, if you shut it cold the terran probably lose right there or in the midgame. What could be reverted to is the reaper build time since they now have shorter range than queen they will always take damage, the range upgrade makes it far more easy to micro against reapers. This doesn't really change the very rare bunker-reaper rush which some terran still occasionally do. The highest level of terrans probably never do since it is so luck reliant.
EPT
(though this thread is probably biased)
