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On September 01 2012 02:35 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:32 omnic wrote:On September 01 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:20 Sroobz wrote:
How come they never talked about DRG NEVER HAVING ANY PROBLEMS WITH HELLIONS PRE-PATCH? They reference Mvp for the ravens...fucking blizzard. Such a joke No zerg pro ever had problems with hellions. They were stupidly easy to defend against and while yes, it did force zerg to do a specific early game to defend or die, it's not like it's any different now (6 queen opening anyone?) Except for when a terran goes reactor hellion and flat out kills all of the zergs drones and wins the game. I'm pretty sure idra and a bunch of pro level zergs wouldn't agree with your statement. If pro level zergs are dying to reactor hellions, it's literally cause they're out of position and/or played way too greedy/no spines or evo chambers out. Do you see a pro terran player complaining that they lost to a 4 gate without any bunkers or repair? It's the same idea.
Pro level zergs are now no longer having trouble with hellions. That doesn't mean that they didn't have trouble dealing with them for quite a long period of time. Just like how terrans are now having trouble with creep. Eventually they'll figure out how to deal with it just as zergs did with hellions. Why do I bring this up? Because the current state of the game is different now than it was a year ago or at release and it will be different in 2013. The devs didn't say "OH TVZ IS FINE EVERYBODY CAN RELAX". They said that they see untapped potential with the raven that terrans haven't explored enough yet and they want to see how it pans out before just making changes.
Brood war didn't become a powerhouse because blizzard kept releasing patches to fix imbalance. It became a powerhouse because the players figured out ways to deal with imbalances (Think back to when muta micro was discovered.). and if the players couldn't figure out anything eventually maps would be created to address the issue.
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On September 01 2012 02:42 Radament wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:35 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:32 omnic wrote:On September 01 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:20 Sroobz wrote:
How come they never talked about DRG NEVER HAVING ANY PROBLEMS WITH HELLIONS PRE-PATCH? They reference Mvp for the ravens...fucking blizzard. Such a joke No zerg pro ever had problems with hellions. They were stupidly easy to defend against and while yes, it did force zerg to do a specific early game to defend or die, it's not like it's any different now (6 queen opening anyone?) Except for when a terran goes reactor hellion and flat out kills all of the zergs drones and wins the game. I'm pretty sure idra and a bunch of pro level zergs wouldn't agree with your statement. If pro level zergs are dying to reactor hellions, it's literally cause they're out of position and/or played way too greedy/no spines or evo chambers out. Do you see a pro terran player complaining that they lost to a 4 gate without any bunkers or repair? It's the same idea. It's actually no where close to the same idea what so ever. You fail to understand how a unit that cost only minerals, previous patches did significantly more damage than now, and was designed to be a harass unit should not have to be delt with like a 4 gat all in. Zergs did make spines, had queens in position to block ramp, and had to make roaches (early gas investment into non tech) or rush tech (2 base muta/infestor) and regadless would still often lose to people who just made 10+ hellions and ran past or killed the queen blocking the ramp just as roaches could have possibly spawned. ( in which case you still had to run ALL of your drones to avoid loseing all your economy)
Arguably though, the Overlord speed buff would've fixed this without making the early game extremely boring. The big problem with hellion openers is zerg players didn't know if there were going to be 4-6 hellions or 10-15 hellions, or a hellion/marauder all in. With the overlord speed buff Zerg players could've actually gone into the terran base and seen if it was a typical hellion expand or something way more dangerous. As a result Zerg wouldn't have been stuck making a sim city and praying only 4-6 hellions showed up.
The queen buff + overlord buff made it so Terran can't do any kind of early pressure/denial without risking falling so far behind they essentially just lose the game. As a result Terrans have to be greedy instead, which leads to a giant period of the game where Terran players build 3 OCs and Zerg gets on 3 bases. It's not nearly as fun to watch as Zerg fending off Terran early pressure and then countering/expanding. The fun of TvZ was largely that the match played out on a razor's edge. If you defended poorly you lost lots of drones. If you didn't do enough damage as Terran you'd get baneling busted or you'd be unprepared for incoming mutas and lose tons of scvs. It was back and forth from the first minute. Now it takes anywhere from 6-10 minutes for any actual action to happen in the match. Maybe it's more balanced, but from a spectating point of view the matchup is just a shadow of it's former self.
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i just don't understand why people bring up WCS in a TvZ balance whine thread... zerg did pretty terrible in that as well. Protoss is dominant in WCS and arguably the best terran in WCS forfeited his match to go to IEM (which he won.)
If you look at the results of ZvT on liquipedia, there were 9 matches of TvZ and 4 matches were won by terran while 5 were won by zerg. It is a far cry from what a lot of people are saying "WCS LOOK AT RESULTS, THEY SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES".
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makes me happy! ravens are good enough already!
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On September 01 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:23 TheDwf wrote:On September 01 2012 02:16 Plansix wrote:On September 01 2012 02:02 TheDwf wrote:On September 01 2012 01:58 Plansix wrote:On September 01 2012 01:54 Solarist wrote:On September 01 2012 01:50 Plansix wrote:On September 01 2012 01:44 Solarist wrote:On September 01 2012 01:30 Plansix wrote:On September 01 2012 01:27 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
People complain when Blizzard makes stupid and unnecessary changes to a good match-up. People complain when Blizzard refuses to adress the various problems created by said changes.
Fixed. I dont agree with the TvZ was a great match up prior to the +2 queen range. I have a problem with a opening that was used on every map, every time. The only question was, "how many hellions will they build". But I guess it was nice for terrans to only have to know one build for the whole match up. An opener that works on every map, every time? Are you talking about the 6 queen opener or what? I hope you realise how hilariously ironic everything you just said is But that ended pretty quickly. Now we see 4 queen builds with earlier pools coming back into style(MLG had tons of this) and we will see other styles come out as well. Is the 6 queen opener not a stable build that can be used in every single map? Yes or no? If you wanna use the arguement just presented then Terran used other strategies aswell, sometimes it was cloak banshee, 2 rax and other early game stuff. But i guess we shoudent use that argument, because it makes your posting fall apart even more  Moving on! From my understanding, the 6 queen opening has no ability to punish a terran if he is greedy Fortunately enough Zergs do not need to punish Terran greed because they can rush Hive and get their ultimate armies way faster than Terrans can. It don’t think that is how it works. Maybe in your games where you cannot handle getting a such a robust terran economy so quickly. Of course it is the way it works, in an even game Zergs can get BLs/Corruptors/Infestors before Terrans (or Protoss for that matter) can get their own ultimate compositions. Both Terrans and Protoss have to stall to reach said compositions. That isn’t really true at all. If you think it is, you may need to go back to basics and learn some early timings to use against zerg and build up from there.
OK, any link to pro games in which Protoss get Carriers/Storm/Mothership or Terrans get Ravens/BCs/Vikings before Zergs gets BLs/Corruptors/Infests?
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This was the case last season too same exact numbers and we know how round of 8 looked
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On September 01 2012 02:53 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:35 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:32 omnic wrote:On September 01 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:20 Sroobz wrote:
How come they never talked about DRG NEVER HAVING ANY PROBLEMS WITH HELLIONS PRE-PATCH? They reference Mvp for the ravens...fucking blizzard. Such a joke No zerg pro ever had problems with hellions. They were stupidly easy to defend against and while yes, it did force zerg to do a specific early game to defend or die, it's not like it's any different now (6 queen opening anyone?) Except for when a terran goes reactor hellion and flat out kills all of the zergs drones and wins the game. I'm pretty sure idra and a bunch of pro level zergs wouldn't agree with your statement. If pro level zergs are dying to reactor hellions, it's literally cause they're out of position and/or played way too greedy/no spines or evo chambers out. Do you see a pro terran player complaining that they lost to a 4 gate without any bunkers or repair? It's the same idea. Pro level zergs are now no longer having trouble with hellions. That doesn't mean that they didn't have trouble dealing with them for quite a long period of time. Just like how terrans are now having trouble with creep. Eventually they'll figure out how to deal with it just as zergs did with hellions. Why do I bring this up? Because the current state of the game is different now than it was a year ago or at release and it will be different in 2013. The devs didn't say "OH TVZ IS FINE EVERYBODY CAN RELAX". They said that they see untapped potential with the raven that terrans haven't explored enough yet and they want to see how it pans out before just making changes. Brood war didn't become a powerhouse because blizzard kept releasing patches to fix imbalance. It became a powerhouse by the players and map makers finding ways around imbalances.
That's fine. Really, it is. But why knee jerk every other decision in SC2's life, and have this one be "let's just wait and see"
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Called that, MVP would win by outplaying people 10x and people would shout that everything is fine.
Cloud was(is?) so right about this guy.
Also, ravens hold a lot of potential? Yeah on fucking Metropolis where you get 5 bases for free and 2 small chokes to defend both.
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They seem to be forgetting that if you remove Taeja and MVP's TvZ win rates, TvZ shifts heavily (by about 5%) into zerg's favour. As well as this, only korean TvZ favours T (again, remove Taeja and MVP and this is not the case). Not only that, but look at all the up-and-coming zergs now. Suppy, Slivko, SortOf, Sasquatch, PiG, etc. The only up and coming Terran player (other than BW pros) I see clearly is Major. And as for up-and-coming protoss... maybe HasuObs..? Though he has been on and off for a while now.
Blizzard really isn't seeing any big picture of the issue.
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It's not worth noting anything in GSL. It's a completely different format where you know who your opponents are, and can plan around it.
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On September 01 2012 02:48 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:42 Radament wrote:On September 01 2012 02:35 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:32 omnic wrote:On September 01 2012 02:25 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:20 Sroobz wrote:
How come they never talked about DRG NEVER HAVING ANY PROBLEMS WITH HELLIONS PRE-PATCH? They reference Mvp for the ravens...fucking blizzard. Such a joke No zerg pro ever had problems with hellions. They were stupidly easy to defend against and while yes, it did force zerg to do a specific early game to defend or die, it's not like it's any different now (6 queen opening anyone?) Except for when a terran goes reactor hellion and flat out kills all of the zergs drones and wins the game. I'm pretty sure idra and a bunch of pro level zergs wouldn't agree with your statement. If pro level zergs are dying to reactor hellions, it's literally cause they're out of position and/or played way too greedy/no spines or evo chambers out. Do you see a pro terran player complaining that they lost to a 4 gate without any bunkers or repair? It's the same idea. It's actually no where close to the same idea what so ever. You fail to understand how a unit that cost only minerals, previous patches did significantly more damage than now, and was designed to be a harass unit should not have to be delt with like a 4 gat all in. Zergs did make spines, had queens in position to block ramp, and had to make roaches (early gas investment into non tech) or rush tech (2 base muta/infestor) and regadless would still often lose to people who just made 10+ hellions and ran past or killed the queen blocking the ramp just as roaches could have possibly spawned. ( in which case you still had to run ALL of your drones to avoid loseing all your economy) Yes, that's why every TvZ actually became a 10 hellion race. It's unstoppable. Making roaches is actually like typing gg. In fact, as soon as roaches pop out, you lose points and instantly get queued up against another Terran. I'm sorry that Zerg has to commit something to defending a 10 hellion push (that would die pre patch to 1-2 spines, 2 queens and 5-6 roaches without even doing any sort of game ending damage if you had even the slightest sim city going on). You're right. It's better that Zerg gets 6 queens, and a free 3rd. Yup
So you didn't even win in previous patches? You should watch a YouTube video or 2 of some past games. You might actually cry about how "bad" your race was.
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Its funny that low level players complain terran is difficult to play and needs so much APM that they have no skill to play.
Look.. I makez ez unitz for u... see my battle hellion, widow mine and warhound... A-move for u... no?
Wow.. teamliquid.. whine threads and controversy storms... dang... so much for me to read nowadays!
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lol, i already gave up on this dumb game, def not paying any money for HOTS either. cya later sc2, you were fun for a couple years.
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On September 01 2012 02:58 lazyitachi wrote:
Its funny that low level players complain terran is difficult to play and needs so much APM that they have no skill to play.
Look.. I makez ez unitz for u... see my battle hellion, widow mine and warhound... A-move for u... no?
Wow.. teamliquid.. whine threads and controversy storms... dang... so much for me to read nowadays!
lol WAT that isn't being discussed at all in this thread
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Sorry guys, i just don't get this "MVP/KAS and so have so high apm that they can perform such strategies. Isn't this the reason you are no pro?
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On August 17 2012 06:38 Sein wrote:
MVP and Nestea working hard together to bring those nerfs!
Remember that Shakuras Plateau game?
Just wait for the next patch. =) "We feel that Ravens too stronk..."
This wasn't exactly a direct nerf since it was cancellation of a buff, but I expect it will happen in a few months.
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Great report, let the game naturally evolve instead of forcing it to. I think this is a step in the right direction.
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I wish they would have used this philosophy for the whole game I think is the point most terrans in this thread are making. I think there are a few changes they made that woudl have had to be made regardless. Stim timing nerf, blue flame hellion nerf, warpgate and void ray nerf. However, the rest of it should have been left alone. and now they use this reasoning, and it just sounds hypocritical and it comes off as extremely unfair to the terran playerbase.
This whole "foreign terrans are bad" thing is also pretty ridiculous. Its true results wise, but consider why its not true for foreign protoss and zerg. Maybe its a design issue with the game, but still its really pretty awful to be a pro foreign terran and be constantly written off as inferior when I would wager they are probably better/smarter RTS players than many of their more successful zerg/protoss peers. I do wonder why they stay with terran though given the circumstances.
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The only thing i'm sad about is that TvZ has become more boring. Lately is all "turtle to victory" for zerg. The terran that are doing good, are going super macro opening. While i don't hate the macro games, imho the oldest balance of early-game aggression for terran into mid-game aggression for zerg (muta) was the best matchup to see, even if it felt slightly favored for terran.
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EPT
