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Seriously
Look at this
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/ladder/grandmaster
How many of them are above 500 wins. Actually scratch that, how many are above 200 wins.
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster
Now do the EXACT same thing for the korean ladder.
On Europe you have the empire terrans putting pretty epic ladder game numbers in. On korea there are so much more people doing that. If you have so many people doing that at the top level you're going to get much better players
Edit: For quick reference, there are 9 people on the korean grandmaster ladder with under 100 "wins" On the eu ladder there are 17 people with under 100 wins. On the americas ladder there are with 38 people less then 100 wins this season.
Edit number 2: http://www.sc2ranks.com/div/all/grandmaster/1/games/0 A PERFECT example.
Average games in grandmaster are 193 higher in korea then in europe and 237 higher then american grandmaster.
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The answer is simple: Korea had lots of terrans at the beginning as the micro potential was plain to see and simple to understand.
As more and more players pick one race (and new players try to emulate them) the situation steamrolls and you suddenly have a serious over-representation.
Since those players now learn from one-another their understanding of race and changing meta-game will mean they are much stronger in terms of creativity and adaptation to changes in balance and meta-game.
This simply didn't catch in the foreign scene as the micro was seen as difficult and no local heroes like Boxer/Nada would promote terran as their race of choice.
And this should not be looked at as if it is somehow a Korean terran specific phenomenon.
We may soon see protoss grow very numerous in Korea and zergs elsewhere.
If such long term trends become entrenched nothing good will come of it.
Especially since I doubt Blizzard cares enough to react properly.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina46 Posts
My personal high master opinion is that terran has a potential to be the stongest race, but in order to play it in the strongest manner you require a lot more multi tasking and multi prong agression, because you want to avoid having dead ball versus dead ball fights in both tvz and tvp and foreign terrans are just not able to multi task as good as koreans can. I think perfectly executed terran play would destroy perfectly executed protoss or zerg play, but perfectly executing a terran play is nearly impossible althrough it's bound to happen in a few years. oh yeah flash yeah
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I'm just gonna stick in my head here and say that the avarage korean Terran player just know how to play aggressive. Most of them played Brood War and take a matchup like TvZ. They play out pretty similar in both games and a good Terran from BW would be in your fucking face and force multitasking out of you (which take alot of multitasking from the Terran aswell) and keep up with the BW macro and unit control at the same time. If you can do that you can do it in sc2 aswell and by just playing alot of sc2 you get the grasp of how and when you are gonna be aggressive and put your mechanics to use in all the matchups because that play style fit into all of them in sc2. This is something MANY foreign T's just don't get.
TLDR: Foreign Terrans are just to passive and bad mechanically.
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I do think that there are just more Terran players available in Korea who are training with better opponents than we or NA do.
In addition I also believe their ladder kinda makes them optimize builds quicker while maintaining the solid play.
I certainly do NOT think, that it is because Terran needs more multi tasking than the other races, this may be right in
certain circumstances, but all in all I disagree.
Especially after seeing Leenock playing OH SO GOOD with MUTA LING BANE(burrowed ones) versus theSTC. That was some brilliant showing of multi tasking ability by him. Who missed it, should definately watch it as it was super entertaining.
TL;DR: It's not balance wise or due to race advantages but due to the environment Koreans are playing.
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Terran has a much higher learning curve than toss and zerg. That's why we always see 100000s of foreign toss and zerg doing well and basically no foreign Terrans.
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They try more, they think more, they're more innovavitive and they have the APM to execute said strats. You can't just spam games and expect to get results, you really have to put a lot thought into it. And I think they do that a lot more efficiently.
Terran is the most verstile race plain and simple. The race has a lot more viable options than any other race. You can try and be creative with protoss, but they're balance limitations, HTs and Colossus are where you're going to see most of your success. And zerg is pretty straight forward IMO.
I don't know if you can avoid a balance poke in this kinda of discussion. I think Terran just offers a lot more than any other race in terms of possiblities added to the high skill set Koreans have, they're just better.
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On August 27 2012 23:07 Syntaxs wrote:
I do think that there are just more Terran players available in Korea who are training with better opponents than we or NA do.
In addition I also believe their ladder kinda makes them optimize builds quicker while maintaining the solid play.
I certainly do NOT think, that it is because Terran needs more multi tasking than the other races, this may be right in
certain circumstances, but all in all I disagree.
Especially after seeing Leenock playing OH SO GOOD with MUTA LING BANE(burrowed ones) versus theSTC. That was some brilliant showing of multi tasking ability by him. Who missed it, should definately watch it as it was super entertaining.
TL;DR: It's not balance wise or due to race advantages but due to the environment Koreans are playing.
The thing is that we rarely see zerg peaple playing like this when they feel confortable in game. When some one is in danger he will be the best ''bitch" in game to regain advantage in.
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Terran is the race that rewards all-in play and punishes long macro games.
1) strong 1 tier units but lacks good late game options
2) production facilities do not allow switching of playstyle. You just pick a gameplan and stick with it. Some adjustments are possible but they take long to kick in.
Good terran play is about timing. Koreans are much better at understanding those.
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On August 27 2012 22:26 Archybaldie wrote:Seriously Look at this http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/ladder/grandmaster How many of them are above 500 wins. Actually scratch that, how many are above 200 wins. http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmasterNow do the EXACT same thing for the korean ladder. On Europe you have the empire terrans putting pretty epic ladder game numbers in. On korea there are so much more people doing that. If you have so many people doing that at the top level you're going to get much better players Edit: For quick reference, there are 9 people on the korean grandmaster ladder with under 100 "wins" On the eu ladder there are 17 people with under 100 wins. On the americas ladder there are with 38 people less then 100 wins this season. Edit number 2: http://www.sc2ranks.com/div/all/grandmaster/1/games/0 A PERFECT example. Average games in grandmaster are 193 higher in korea then in europe and 237 higher then american grandmaster.
this is interesting and cool.
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Probably it's because the learning curve of Terran is a little bit higher then the Protoss/Zerg ones when you are High Master League or so.
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On August 27 2012 23:34 Imzoo wrote:
The thing is that we rarely see zerg peaple playing like this when they feel confortable in game. When some one is in danger he will be the best ''bitch" in game to regain advantage in.
Thats true indeed, but the game still showed how intensive the other races can be so this is in my eyes no arguement anymore. I am just waiting for Moon making his appearence adding the 4th race just like in Wacraft 3. It's the brilliance Koreans work with, while EU and NA sticks to a style everyone already knows the answeres against.
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One thing I think about Korean vs F things like this are all about timings too. With terran especially, no matter how ahead you are in the game, you can you still lose if you dont execute well. And advantages you gain become much weaker over time, so hitting a followup timing can exponentially increase your chances of winning. This is A LOT easier to do as zerg because of the way production works or with Protoss because of warp gate/chrono/aoe. Terran has to plan timings out pretty carefully or make that decision more in advance because they wont have the production to perform said attack, or some kind of tech gets out and can completely negate said attack regardless of numbers difference. Koreans RARELY miss opportunities like that, and adapt on the fly. They know when they kill this much stuff early on, they can do this attack at this time and win the game 100%. I don't see a lot of foreign players play like this, and that is all across the board not just Terran players.
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sick interview with MaNa.
im so happy he made it into Code S!!!
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On August 28 2012 01:04 Champi wrote:
sick interview with MaNa.
im so happy he made it into Code S!!!
I think you might have posted in the wrong thread.
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On August 27 2012 22:58 Gosi wrote:
I'm just gonna stick in my head here and say that the avarage korean Terran player just know how to play aggressive. Most of them played Brood War and take a matchup like TvZ. They play out pretty similar in both games and a good Terran from BW would be in your fucking face and force multitasking out of you (which take alot of multitasking from the Terran aswell) and keep up with the BW macro and unit control at the same time. If you can do that you can do it in sc2 aswell and by just playing alot of sc2 you get the grasp of how and when you are gonna be aggressive and put your mechanics to use in all the matchups because that play style fit into all of them in sc2. This is something MANY foreign T's just don't get.
TLDR: Foreign Terrans are just to passive and bad mechanically.
I think this sums up Korean players across the board. If you listen to interviews from MLG, most of the stories about the Koreans involved them breaking out some sort of super agressive cheese. Koreans are very aware that bringing the fear of a cheese or an all-in makes players think twice about greed.
If you compair this to the NA ladder(the only one I have personal experience on), the majority of players default to a macro build, trying for a maxed armys. But while Koreans fearlessly go through the GSL on brutal two base all-ins, we mock them for their lack of talent. But yet, every time they show up for an MLG, they mop the floor with every player we place in front of them.
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I have played all 3 races at a master level. I think I can safely say, macroing as Terran takes more time. Zerg can build ovi's without even looking at their base, and toss needs only a single probe. I would say this alone means Terran takes around 10x as long as zerg and maybe 1.5x as long as Toss to create more supply.
Terran needs to LIft/Land and make units out of 4 structures, whilst Zerg needs 1 and protoss needs "usually" only 3, sometimes 4.
Missing macro is very bad for Terran and Protoss, whilst for Zerg it is more forgiving.
Zerg needs to create tumors and hit Inject, which is much more important than scans, and hugely more important than chorno.
Overall, I think Terran mechanincs take the most time, and their units take a lot of babysitting, namely tanks. Since it is generally accepted that Koreans can do more actions in the same amount of time, they become much stronger than foreingers while playing terran because there is a greater number of important things to do.
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On August 27 2012 00:17 Bonneyi wrote:
ofcourse its not practice... i mean look at kas's profile.
Me myself have been living like a progammer during the summer :D, i mean 8 hours of playing a day, (from 9-23) with brakes tranings etc etc, and the biggest improvement was from going top plat to going mid diamond :D i mean come on there is something im doing terribly wrong, im justr trying to understand, what is it that we Europeans and Americans do differently.
That's either 4 or 16 hours.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina46 Posts
On August 27 2012 00:17 Bonneyi wrote:
ofcourse its not practice... i mean look at kas's profile.
Me myself have been living like a progammer during the summer :D, i mean 8 hours of playing a day, (from 9-23) with brakes tranings etc etc, and the biggest improvement was from going top plat to going mid diamond :D i mean come on there is something im doing terribly wrong, im justr trying to understand, what is it that we Europeans and Americans do differently.
You are doing something very wrong. When i started playing SCII I had no previous RTS experience and I was placed in plat after I won 4/5 placement matches and went to diamond in my second season at about 300 matches played aka about 130 hours of SCII alltogether. I basically watched streams 5x more then actually played and I practiced builds versus A.I. and I had a few like 3 builds made for each match ups althrough i admit 6/9 builds were 2 base all-ins. So step up your game son.
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Terran is the most developed race in WoL and the race that most closely ties mechanics to success. Not that the other races don't require good mechanics but Korean level mechanics pay higher dividends to Terran than Zerg or Protoss. That high benchmark just isn't achieved outside of Korea so most foreigners play Zerg/Toss instead which allow them to succeed.
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EPT
