EPTWhy you shouldnt be playing random on ladder. - Page 13
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
random is FUN | ||
kill619
United States212 Posts
On August 24 2012 14:07 rd wrote: If the "disadvantage" of playing random, i.e. inconsistency, is accounted for in the MM system by consistently losing to 100% equally skilled players, then the "advantage" of playing random, the information advantage, should show up in win rates and be accounted for by MM as well. Basically, if you have a 50% chance to win, your opponent is VERY likely to be worse at the match-up than you are. The disadvantage is imaginary. You're delusional. The only way is for your opponent to have an advantage is to be strictly better than you, which can only happen in lower leagues, as random is not consistent enough to advance without immense skill differentials in their opponents. Who the fuck cares why someone picks random for fun? It's not your right to judge. And don't insult my intelligence, thanks. If someone 6 pools you your opening is dictated by them. You have no choice. So I guess spawning pools should require an overlord because your fun was ruined. You need to realize random is a fourth race and must be treated as such. You aren't opening sub-optimally vs a zerg, you're opening optimally vs a random for the highest chance of success. It's not PvZ, it's a PvfuckingR. First I'm not "judging" anyone for playing random and have fun. if anything, I'm judging people who think it's fair for you're opponent to not know your race and try to justify it by pretending that the random player choosing not to share their race is the innocent one, as if his opponent forced him to learn every match up in game or that as a random player you're entitled to anything. Secondly, why should one player have to open optimally vs the chance of all three races while another player gets pick a match up specific build? Whats wrong with races being hidden for both players if one has chosen random? Whose "fun" and "metagame" does it ruin when both players are on an even playing field? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:34 kill619 wrote: First I'm not "judging" anyone for playing random and have fun. if anything, I'm judging people who think it's fair for you're opponent to not know your race and try to justify it by pretending that the random player choosing not to share their race is the innocent one, as if his opponent forced him to learn every match up in game or that as a random player you're entitled to anything. 1. Choosing not to share your race is the innocent one. That player has done nothing wrong. You're the person accusing the random player of some sort of guilt (or at least implying they aren't innocent) when they are clearly playing within the boundaries of the game. 2. Learning every matchup in the game is a choice and irrelevant. 3. As a random player, you ARE entitled to having your race hidden. You cannot argue that, as it's clearly built into the game as a feature of the random player. The random player can relinquish this right by disclosing his race, but it's absolutely silly to presume they aren't entitled to have their race hidden, at least at the moment. On August 24 2012 15:34 kill619 wrote: Secondly, why should one player have to open optimally vs the chance of all three races while another player gets pick a match up specific build? Whats wrong with races being hidden for both players if one has chosen random? Whose "fun" and "metagame" does it ruin when both players are on an even playing field? Except it is an even playing field. Both sides have the option to choose to play random. You choose not to play random, for whatever reason. If you're plat and "don't have time to learn all 3 matchups," then isn't it simply your fault that you don't have time, not the fault of the random player who does? Not to mention if you're plat, you're being faced with another plat player who plays random, and, assuming he/she has the same amount of time as you, has a third of the time to practice each specific matchup you get to practice? And what are your arguments that it's not fair, when all evidence points to random being disadvantageous in terms of statistics on a pro level? Overall, it's hard to say you have an argument. If random was advantageous, you'd expect to see it as the dominant race choice. However, it is overwhelmingly the least chosen "race." Hiding the race is merely an incentive to pick random. It's not hard to find trends with the most powerful race at the time typically has the most players of that race at the time (remember when the top 10 GM were all Terran, and there were 26 out of the top 30 as Terran on the Korean ladder in GM?). | ||
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Kfcnoob
United States296 Posts
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all | ||
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Nahsom
Austria361 Posts
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:38 FabledIntegral wrote: 1. Choosing not to share your race is the innocent one. That player has done nothing wrong. You're the person accusing the random player of some sort of guilt (or at least implying they aren't innocent) when they are clearly playing within the boundaries of the game. 2. Learning every matchup in the game is a choice and irrelevant. 3. As a random player, you ARE entitled to having your race hidden. You cannot argue that, as it's clearly built into the game as a feature of the random player. The random player can relinquish this right by disclosing his race, but it's absolutely silly to presume they aren't entitled to have their race hidden, at least at the moment. Except it is an even playing field. Both sides have the option to choose to play random. You choose not to play random, for whatever reason. If you're plat and "don't have time to learn all 3 matchups," then isn't it simply your fault that you don't have time, not the fault of the random player who does? Not to mention if you're plat, you're being faced with another plat player who plays random, and, assuming he/she has the same amount of time as you, has a third of the time to practice each specific matchup you get to practice? And what are your arguments that it's not fair, when all evidence points to random being disadvantageous in terms of statistics on a pro level? Overall, it's hard to say you have an argument. If random was advantageous, you'd expect to see it as the dominant race choice. However, it is overwhelmingly the least chosen "race." Hiding the race is merely an incentive to pick random. It's not hard to find trends with the most powerful race at the time typically has the most players of that race at the time (remember when the top 10 GM were all Terran, and there were 26 out of the top 30 as Terran on the Korean ladder in GM?). 1. Said it once and I'll say it again, I have no problem with people who play random. I just find the "justifications" for intentionally not telling your opponent your race to be ridiculous. 2. It's very relevant actually because it seems to make people feel like it gives them the right to have their race hidden. 3. As a player on a skill based match making system , you ARE NOT entitled to anything that can give you or your opponent an advantage or disadvantage. One player getting to choose what build he wants for the particular match up from the start of a game and the other player not having the same choice is a disadvantage. There are match up specific builds that you can not do unless you know your opponents race from the beginning of the game and/or happen to scout their race quickly enough(ie forge fe) Both sides can pick random? Is that a real point your trying to make? So when terran's win rate was ridiculous during the beta the game was balanced because,"everyone has the option of picking Terran so that makes it fair." That's a terrible philosophy for designing a multiplier video game for a multitude of reasons, but if you honestly think that's a reasonable argument there's nothing I can say that will change your mind. Your analogy about time spent practicing match ups is flawed because you assume every person in a giving league must practice a set amount of time per match up, thus justifying any rewards the random player might receive for sinking more time into the game. Time spent practicing isn't linear to being good in a match up. There's plenty of reasons why random isn't the dominant race, the biggest being that most people are told when they buy the game to try to find one race you like and stick with it to learn how the game works along with how differently all the races play and people preferring one races style over another. The reason there aren't pros playing random is because of how much time and work has to be put in to barely remain relevant as a 1 race player let alone someone trying to beat pro's in all 9 match ups. You still never answered my question, whats so wrong with both races being hidden if one player chooses random? | ||
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:34 kill619 wrote: First I'm not "judging" anyone for playing random and have fun. if anything, I'm judging people who think it's fair for you're opponent to not know your race and try to justify it by pretending that the random player choosing not to share their race is the innocent one, as if his opponent forced him to learn every match up in game or that as a random player you're entitled to anything. Secondly, why should one player have to open optimally vs the chance of all three races while another player gets pick a match up specific build? Whats wrong with races being hidden for both players if one has chosen random? Whose "fun" and "metagame" does it ruin when both players are on an even playing field? It IS fair for your opponent to not know your race when you play random. I just explained this to you. Get over it and deal with it. What the fuck is this notion of forcing you to play against random or forcing your opponent to learn all the match-ups. They picked random because they wanted to. Maybe they should complain that you picked a single race and have an automatic advantage of being way better at any match-up they could possibly get regardless of a small 2 minute advantage. Holy shit I'll just restate it. XvR is a fourth match-up and you're opening against the fourth race, not the three races it can random. It's not supposed to be optimal vs the race they random. Im pretty sure this is mentioned in the wiki. Whats wrong with races being hidden is that the random race has existed for longer than a decade and has been perfectly fine. Millions of players, all except you have coped with it. Heres a better question: Why do you keep saying they aren't on an even playing field as if the random has the advantage? Go check GM statistics and tell me how many equally skilled random GM players win with this advantage. I'll wait for you to give me the numbers. | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Chance55
United States55 Posts
On August 23 2012 07:13 Capped wrote: Lol, this thread is pointless, heres why  If you play random and it disrupts the metagame into something different, it doesnt matter because THAT is then the metagame they need to know, because they play random. Catch my drift? ... Exactly. I used to do a strategy in low level as a random for Tv T/P. I noticed that people would often wall off in case of zerg 6 pool. So when i got Terran, I would check for a wall-off. If they walled, I would rush some marines, build a proxy barracks, float it for high ground vision, and maybe build a low ground bunker with the barracks for vision (or get out some early C-shell mauraders vs P). Then I could hammer their wall off from the low ground. Since they couldn't use sentries to forcefield the ramp (I was on the low ground), it was almost impossible for P to save their wall buildings. T would float their barracks back, but usually lose the depots. Of course that's not the best way to improve and get out of the lower levels. And I have no idea if that strat would work at a higher level. But the point is that, liked Capped said, I didn't learn the "wrong" metagame. I learned the right metagame... for playing random (at least at that level). | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Dosey
United States4505 Posts
If I wanted to learn the meta for the standard matchups, I would pick a standard race, however my race is Random. I don't need to know the current metagame for all the standards because I don't play those races. | ||
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MyFirstProbe
Netherlands294 Posts
On August 24 2012 16:08 Kfcnoob wrote: isnt the majority of korean GM random? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all No it isn't http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster EDIT: And a lot of players don't play random to win, but for fun (At least I do) | ||
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achristes
Norway653 Posts
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RGB
Switzerland7 Posts
What about tournaments? do they allow random? And if they do, should the player announces his race at the beginning of the game? | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On August 25 2012 00:33 Dosey wrote: All I've seen in this thread and the previous thread are Plat and Diamond level complainers that seem to be angry that they actually have to think on their feet and adapt when playing vs Random rather than use a cookie cutter build that they've stolen from some pro for every matchup. The line is trollish and cliche but I think it's relevant here... Learn to fucking play and stop bitching, seriously. If I wanted to learn the meta for the standard matchups, I would pick a standard race, however my race is Random. I don't need to know the current metagame for all the standards because I don't play those races. It's pathetic and hilarious at the same time. I honestly think a lot of these people are somehow threatened by the thought of someone being better than them at not only their main race, but all 3 races at once. Inferiority complex much? On August 25 2012 01:58 RGB wrote: I don't play random but if I would I would not tell my race. I consider this as a build order advantage that you have when you are random and it is part of the game... What about tournaments? do they allow random? And if they do, should the player announces his race at the beginning of the game? Random is allowed, it's just highly uncommon because it takes an immense amount of skill and dedication to stay relevant at 3 races, as opposed to just 1. No, the players do not announce their race. There was 2-3 random players in GSL and none of them have stayed as Random because it is much more challenging. | ||
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