EPTWhy you shouldnt be playing random on ladder. - Page 12
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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theBlues
El Salvador638 Posts
I play in tournaments and lans in my country and I cant see any benefits of playing against a random player or being one. | ||
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
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Bout2plucku
United States63 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
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My_Fake_Plastic_Luv
United States257 Posts
However to the point of the thread: I think the poster is mostly wrong. The metagame is like this shifting, messy thing, which noone but pros truly understand. Also in random play the only real thing that seems very different to me are the openings and pre- 7min timing stuff. Unit-wise random players mostly use like standard compositions and the late game is def. the same. I feel like real things that hinder peeps improvement are like mechanics and multitasking and reaction time vs. attacks/drops. Pretty sure a good random player switching to a single race will pick up the current metagame without much problem, especially if they do a bit of teamliquid research. And I'm pretty sure a bad random player switching to a single race will continue to be bad. A third point: cheesing as a random player can be some good stress relief =D | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
I see what point you're making and I think it's a valid concern. However, I agree with the guy on the first page that says, basically, random has its own metagame to worry about. So, even if you do play random, you're still getting quality experience - just as good as not playing random. | ||
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Sylfyre
Australia222 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:35 radscorpion9 wrote: Honestly it seems like people are being way too harsh. I don't see him saying that you're a bad person for playing random and that you should change because he says so, he's just offering his opinion as to why playing random is bad from a specific perspective...if you disagree with it or explain alternate reasons then he'd probably be fine with it, unless you see him explicitly tell you "No only my reason matters, you're a noob for trying to have fun"...which has never happened A big part is the wording of the title, "Why you shouldn't be playing random" Regardless of his intent, the way it's worded sounds like he is telling you that you should be doing, if the title was something more like "An issue with playing random" or, looking at his reasoning, "Why playing random isn't an effective way to practice and improve" then I think there would be more discussion of his point (Which personally I disagree with) than people being too harsh to him. | ||
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Sedzz
Australia391 Posts
On August 23 2012 06:54 XERtirips wrote: But the reason why I disagree a ton with playing random is; And there in lies the problem of this thread being incredibly stupid and pointless. Just because you disagree, it doesn't mean everyone else should agree/disagree with this opinion. If the was thread titled was "Why I believe people shouldn't play random" then the thread just becomes pointless and not incredibly stupid, but as it is, the thread title implies fact when the op is purely opinion. | ||
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silentsod
United States198 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:18 theBlues wrote: I auto six pool vs random players, I have 2/3 of a chance of doing the correct move, either I win or lose fast, and I can go against a real player to get some real practice. I play in tournaments and lans in my country and I cant see any benefits of playing against a random player or being one. Yeah, random players aren't "real" players! Only people I think are playing the game correctly are! | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning. | ||
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intense555
United States474 Posts
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CounterOrder
Canada457 Posts
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On August 24 2012 12:18 Blargh wrote: Hmm, sort of silly. I do agree that it messes up the "standard" play of the game, but it's a strategy game, if you cannot learn strategies to outplay your opponent despite any disadvantage, then you shouldn't take it competitively. If you don't play competitively, you shouldn't care whether or not you are Grandmaster league or if you're bronze/win or lose. I play the game for the fun of doing fun strategies and dicking around. I'm masterleague, but I don't give two shits whether I lose the game either. I've played a lot of matches. Even though it gives the random player an advantage, it also makes the game more interesting. I don't completely disagree with you, just only to an extent. I would probably reveal my race if I played random because I like challenges and strategy, not winning. But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason. I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 24 2012 13:09 kill619 wrote: But if your playing competitively you shouldn't really have to worry about playing at a disadvantage from the beginning of the game for no real reason. I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that random shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't fun to play random for the sake of getting to play all the races but it just doesn't seem fair to force someone else into a disadvantage because of a choice someone else made that you have no say in. If anything if one player wants to play random and have his race hidden, both players race should be hidden to each other. That way random players can have their "unique metagame" with out getting an automatic build order advantage vs someone who picks their race. You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
On August 24 2012 13:15 rd wrote: You realize the difference in the lack of information vs the lack of practice your opponent has turns the game in a monumental advantage for yourself? Stop with the disadvantage bullshit already. If someone chooses to cheese you and force a metagame you don't want to play you also don't have control over that either. It's such a dumb basis to argue upon against random. If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill. edit: If anything a random player will, assuming like everyone else that random players don't understand all the matchups(ignoring the fact that there are plenty of random players that do and are capable of this), his mmr will drop to the point where even if the player doesn't understand match ups at the same level of his opponents the random player will, more the likely, have superior mechanics. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 24 2012 13:40 kill619 wrote: If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill. False. If there is any random advantage and the players were evenly skilled, then random players should have better than a 50-50 ratio. Because Random players still get a 50-50 ratio as you suggest, it means that Random players are on average, less skilled than their counterparts. Except a Protoss that can't adapt to a 1gate expand in 3% of their games is fucking hilarious. But no, really, keep doing that one same opener and get zero experience varying it up. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 24 2012 13:40 kill619 wrote: If your laddering against a random player it's safe to assume that their near your skill level at least in most of the match ups in the game so why should their be any artificial advantage/disadvantage for either player, besides random players thinking it's "fun" to play people who aren't prepared for what race their playing? And what does is mean to "force a metagame you don't want to play" by cheesing? I don't think you know what metagame means. Example, 3 cc hellion banshee openers in tvz is very standard in the current metagame. Forcing a protoss player to not get to choose to ffe vs zerg because he doesn't know he's playing a zerg player, putting him at a disadvantage a random player who gets zerg and has the choice of doing their vs protoss build, isn't a metagame. It's creating a disadvantage through something that has nothing to do with either players skill. If the "disadvantage" of playing random, i.e. inconsistency, is accounted for in the MM system by consistently losing to 100% equally skilled players, then the "advantage" of playing random, the information advantage, should show up in win rates and be accounted for by MM as well. Basically, if you have a 50% chance to win, your opponent is VERY likely to be worse at the match-up than you are. The disadvantage is imaginary. You're delusional. The only way is for your opponent to have an advantage is to be strictly better than you, which can only happen in lower leagues, as random is not consistent enough to advance without immense skill differentials in their opponents. Who the fuck cares why someone picks random for fun? It's not your right to judge. And don't insult my intelligence, thanks. If someone 6 pools you your opening is dictated by them. You have no choice. So I guess spawning pools should require an overlord because your fun was ruined. You need to realize random is a fourth race and must be treated as such. You aren't opening sub-optimally vs a zerg, you're opening optimally vs a random for the highest chance of success. It's not PvZ, it's a PvfuckingR. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:01 Divergence wrote: You should re-read the OP. He wasn't calling Random a "scrub" tactic so your Sirlin article is irrelevant (although it is a good article and very relevant to many aspects of Starcraft). He was pointing out that randoming causes non-standard situations to arise, making Random not a good way to learn the individual races (for the purpose of race-picking). Playing Random teaches you how to play Random; it doesn't teach you how to play each race in a race-pick situation. OP's attitude is slightly flawed though because he assumes that people play Random in order to learn each race. Some people just want to play Random as a race of it's own, in which case randoming is the best way to play for them. Actually I think those articles are quite relevant, though a later one has a better example of why the OP's argument doesn't hold true. From Part 3: "In other words, playing to win involves exploring. It involves trying several different approaches in a game to see which you are best at, which other players are best at, and which you think will end up being the most effective in the end. .... I practiced pretty hard for a tournament in Super Turbo Street Fighter that occurred on August 9th-11th 2001. Before the tournament, I decided to play only Dhalsim and to practice him a lot against whoever I could. I also happen to actually like the game, and I’d sometimes mess around with my “fun characters” of Honda and Ryu, and occasionally with my “professional” character: Bison. Dhalsim was my focus, though. When the actual tournament came around, I would have never guessed what it all came down to. My Dhalsim did well, and it came time for me to face a well-known Japanese player who plays T-Hawk. T-Hawk is known to be terrible, especially against Dhalsim, but this was a prime example of a player who could work magic with a “sucky” character. After one game, my Dhalsim was utterly destroyed, and I needed a change of plans. I figured that my “casual play” Honda would do well, since I could sit and do nothing the entire game and be safe from T-Hawk. If he ever got near, I could head-butt and knock him away, then sit and do nothing. (See my article on The Art of War: The Sheathed Sword.) Anyway, my performance, a true exhibition of stubbornness and boringness in tournament play, paid off. I defeated the Japanese player in an utterly ridiculous character matchup that no one would ever predict actually happening in a tournament. I went on to lose another ridiculous character matchup against a different Japanese player, but that’s another story. The unlikely moral here is that playing to win is often counter-productive. Those who love the game and play to play will uncover the unusual nuances that might be important in a tournament. Those nuances might never be important, but the “play to play” player doesn’t care. It’s all for fun, and he’s happy to accumulate whatever knowledge he can. The “play to win” player might lock himself into perfecting certain tactics/strategies/character that will eventually be obsolete, as hard as that will be to believe at the moment. Meanwhile, the player who is able to take a step back and mess around will either discover new mountains to climb, or at least take a stab at climbing some other known mountains. The joke’s on you when his mountain turns out to be 10 times higher than yours." In a tournament setting, Sirlin had to turn to his casual, less practiced, less optimal Honda (a gateway expand) instead of his practiced optimal Dhalsim (a FFE) in order to defeat his opponent. Of course, the OP's argument that you can't learn from a ladder game vR is still moot anyway because you learn far more important skills like crisis management and judgement calls from those games, while custom games with practice partners are what you should be using to perfect specific matchup builds anyway. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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