|
On August 20 2012 01:19 ProxyKite wrote:
Random players have it harder than players who play 1 or 2 races, and have to play with 3 times the knowledge of timings and build orders. A reason you would want to play random is for the advantage that your opponent doesn't know what race you play. The disadvantage to randoms is the amount of time invested into learning all 3 races. Why would you play random on even ground and invest 2-3 times more time into learning?
In your case of PvR turning into PvZ, even if you open gate first, you can always throw down a forge then nexus after. Sure you are behind, but then you must secure small advantages which then over time accumulate into a big advantage making it even or swinging the game in your favor. Then again, why play into the meta game when you can just 4 gate if zerg double expands?
Remember that most of the time when you are playing a random (diamond and below), chances are that a Random probably doesn't have better mechanics than a player who only plays that race.
The point is, a lot (about 75% of all random opponents I face) don't play standard and cheese. Often their cheese hits before you can scout them sometimes on 4 player maps.
|
the main issue is that unlike terran or zerg where they open the same thing constantly against all races, i.e. 1 rax CC, 14/15, the protoss usually needs to vary between 2 builds 9 pylon 12 gate and 12/14 or 15 forge 17nex/15nex. Thats the main issue, so I like many protosses just cheese the living shit out of randomers. Also I get race picking, but if you want to be random you should literally just toss a dice with 6 sides and 2 opposite sides are the same race, that would be the same thing you have 33.3% chance of each race, and it would allow for a fair game.
|
Treat random as a fourth race and have a good solid opener that works reliably vs all 3 races until you scout the random's race. (Either by us scouting, or you scouting us) It's that simple. Also, this thread has many misconceptions and misguided stereotypes about random players...
|
Come on, random players account for what? 5 - 10% of the ladder? The amount of random matches that occur are so small that it really doesn't matter.
Just play the game and if you lose who cares. One win/loss isn't going to make or break you.
|
|
|
As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to play with the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because "that's what the pros do". [People actually have said this to me when I beat them with stupid 1 base pushes]
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random (assuming they are of the same skill level) in each race if it becomes a late game macro war.
Oh and I have to add I love playing R v R. The ultimate game of unknowns mmmmm  ]]]]]
|
I don't dislike random matchups.
I play Z as my main and I always go 11 over pool against a random opponent.
It can be a bit more aggressive than my other usual openings like hatch first and so in that sense, it lets me experience a different game style.
besides, I find it quite interesting to guess his main race and then check if I am right after the game is over.
|
On August 20 2012 01:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:
As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to go on the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because that's what the pros do.
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random in each race if it becomes a late game macro war.
I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
|
On August 20 2012 01:24 Hummingb1rd wrote:
Treat random as a fourth race and have a good solid opener that works reliably vs all 3 races until you scout the random's race. (Either by us scouting, or you scouting us) It's that simple. Also, this thread has many misconceptions and misguided stereotypes about random players...
This is, without a doubt, the best advice so far in this thread.
Play a standard, safe opening, yes, a zerg might be able to expand, while you don't FFE. It's one game, and it's vs. a random opponent. And the solution of, "have the loading screen display their race" removes the single advantage that playing random has.
People tend to play at a weaker level as one of the races, and a random player is taking that chance. As compensation, the game forces you to temporarily play blindly against them. It's a trade off that makes sense.
Edit: On August 20 2012 01:31 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:
As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to go on the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because that's what the pros do.
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random in each race if it becomes a late game macro war. I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
It says random on the screen because, while a lot of people have said they'll tell you their race, they're by no means *required* to do so. If i get pocket aces in hold em, i definitely COULD tell you, but there's no obligation for me to do so.
|
What's wrong with scouting incredibly earlier than usual? You lose mining time, but regardless, that small amount of mining time doesn't play that huge of a role given how imperfect your play is.
|
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 20 2012 01:19 ProxyKite wrote:
Random players have it harder than players who play 1 or 2 races, and have to play with 3 times the knowledge of timings and build orders. A reason you would want to play random is for the advantage that your opponent doesn't know what race you play. The disadvantage to randoms is the amount of time invested into learning all 3 races. Why would you play random on even ground and invest 2-3 times more time into learning?
In your case of PvR turning into PvZ, even if you open gate first, you can always throw down a forge then nexus after. Sure you are behind, but then you must secure small advantages which then over time accumulate into a big advantage making it even or swinging the game in your favor. Then again, why play into the meta game when you can just 4 gate if zerg double expands?
Remember that most of the time when you are playing a random (diamond and below), chances are that a Random probably doesn't have better mechanics than a player who only plays that race.
Wrong.
If you are playing ANY race, you MUST know all timings the other race can throw at you (there aren't so many different timings in whatever MU), so, sorry, but you are not a huge book of wisdom.
Most of the pro players play other races as well and they are quite good with them, some pro players even played random. Just to throw this out there:
Terran will not find Zerg easy, simply because of how their macro works.
Zerg will not find Terran easy, simply because of how their macro and micro required works.
Protoss is the in-between as they have "instant" and "normal build" units but will have problems with Zerg with the APM and attention required just for pure macro mechanics (most medium-range Protoss players do not really spend as much APM on macro as Zerg does, it is a fact).
Yes, the transition between races is what you are facing and how the each race is played, that's your biggest challenge to master and to feel comfortable from going crazy creep spread/inject mode to passive Protoss mode. Learning the "timings" and "MUs" is just a ridiculous argument. I am a Zerg player myself and I know most of the timings from all races, because I avidly watch pro games, even those without "my" race in them.
|
On August 19 2012 21:46 Tao367 wrote:Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum. Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players. So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE). I personally feel that the race chosen should be displayed on the loading screen, without any indication that it is actually random. I understand many players will not agree with this, but why? My personal opinion is this: A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience. Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why. To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself. Edit: A replay why PvR(z) is broken. I know my play is shit, but even with better play than my opponent in this situation would be bad. http://drop.sc/240528
Can be sort of annoying for zerg vsing randoms as well. If they get protoss and I 14 hatch I get cannoned.
|
On August 19 2012 23:38 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:36 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match. A dice has 6 sides, not 3. It's impossible to make a 3-side-dice. XD 1-2 = T 3-4 = P 5-6 = Z Just a thought. /shrug.
One could also:
1=T
2=Z
3=P
4-6 Roll again!
|
The race your opponent has picked affects the way you play the game; in that sense, random is no different than any of the others. Empirically, the profile of the professional scene shows that choosing random is a pretty serious disadvantage and if the race was revealed as you suggest, it would be a much bigger disadvantage.
The bottom line is the actions others take and the choices they make do affect you, and there's nothing wrong with that... that's why it's a multi-player game.
The difference with random is it adds more uncertainty to the start of the game. So yes, a random player can get away with things that normally you cannot (hatch first vs p, for example) and you have to respect that in any game a 6 pool could be coming. But that's just how the game goes against the random race. Overall, random players are disadvantaged and these things certainly don't make them win more than comparably skilled players--if they did, most pros would be random.
|
I like to consider random as a separate race with its own advantages and disadvatages. The advantages being of course that th opponent is unaware of the race at the start of the game. The disadvantage is that it's harder to practice for the larger number of matchups.
|
On August 20 2012 00:35 Equity213 wrote:
This thread reeks of loser mentality. "Rather than take 5 minutes to think and adjust my play, I will just cheese every game. Because random is cheap".
What a self destructive mindset to have.
There is no situation in 1v1 SC2 that doesnt have a solution. Its ok if you cant find it, but dont be so lazy as to not even try.
So many people can't consider that they may be what is at fault when they fail at something. I do like how not one of the subsequent random haters in the thread has responded to this post, instead just reading the op and posting, or pretending that your post was never made.
|
On August 20 2012 01:31 Tao367 wrote:
I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
Because "A large number of the posters here" means nothing. That's just what people who are interested in this thread and wanted to respond thought. That's not even the entire TL community, let alone the entire SC2 community.
The fact is this: if you want to play random and tell people your race, you have that option. If you want to effectively play random by rolling a die before each match, you have that option.
But if you want to play random and not have your opponent know what your race is, your idea would have this choice taken away from them.
Consider this: pretty much every tournament in existence allows random as a race choice. And yet virtually no pro players pick it. If it were such an advantage to play random, surely more pros would be random players, yes? So if you don't see people taking this powerful advantage... maybe it's because the advantage doesn't really exist.
|
On August 20 2012 01:31 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:
As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to go on the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because that's what the pros do.
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random in each race if it becomes a late game macro war. I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
The thing is , the majority of the people in this thread who want random removed (or the uncertainty of random removed) want it because "its not fair that random gets a BO advantage". The perceived imbalance of random is what fuels most of the dislike of it.
(On a personal note, I think it isn't really imbalanced, its just different, and others have posted my reasons for thinking this).
|
On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to.
This post his hilarious. You want people to play 'optimally' against you, but you're forcing them all to scout a lot earlier than they normally would, and you're making it so that Protoss basically can't Forge expand against your Zerg -- now that is sub-optimal.
|
I just 2 gate proxy vs random. I refuse to play normal vs someone who has an unfair advantage at the start of the game and who will most likely be trying to cheese me anyway
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
