On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote:
Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_-
Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_-
Battle Helions! Goodbye Mass zealot/zerglings remaxing.
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xPabt
226 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Battle Helions! Goodbye Mass zealot/zerglings remaxing. | ||
Vod.kaholic
United States1052 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Tanks, hellions, Ghost EMP, Raven seeker missiles, Planetary Fortress, and Thor AA. But you know, no splash damage at all besides tanks. Terran's really hurting on the splash damage front. | ||
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:30 Cloak wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: On August 18 2012 10:20 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:14 ZeromuS wrote: On August 18 2012 10:10 Cloak wrote: Shredder was axed because of how instantly it destroyed mineral lines. Meanwhile, Oracle will never kill a damn thing. They dont want to add something that lets protoss kill things because we do it well enough already apparently. I wish we could raid and kill workers not just prevent mining. Who knows, we will need to see it before I know exacly how much damage it does. Then again if you pull all workers for 20 seconds thats a lot of lost mining time. So this essentially does the same thing. Yea, I get the reasoning, if the Oracle were 0 supply. But if I make a 200 supply army of deathball contributing units, that's still my maximum deathball capacity. They still have to balance the game if I decide to never make an Oracle. I would say 20s is rather stretching how much impact Entomb has, seeing as workers alone can kill the shields off in 10-12s. Also trading gas and supply for mineral opportunity cost is stretching it. Also the fact that the Oracle has no interesting unit dynamic to work with. Banshees and Mutas take micro and consistent harass. Oracle is fire and forget with no spectator value. Even Science Vessels got in the thick of things just to dodge Scourges/Mutas to get their fire and forget spells off. Kind of funny that your name is cloak and you forgot that the Oracle has a cloaking ability. Every side will have detection by the time Oracle cloak means anything. That's one thing I learned in RTS, if something doesn't actually destroy your opponent's resources, it will be balanced to uselessness. Nothing is more powerful than permanently stunting the growth/influence of your enemy. Shenanigans never survive the meta. Never see cloaked banshees anymore either. DTs are a hail mary pass, which similarly trade gas for scans (mineral opportunity cost). What amazing league or possibly different game do you play that no one uses cloaked banshees? | ||
SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:30 Cloak wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: On August 18 2012 10:20 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:14 ZeromuS wrote: On August 18 2012 10:10 Cloak wrote: Shredder was axed because of how instantly it destroyed mineral lines. Meanwhile, Oracle will never kill a damn thing. They dont want to add something that lets protoss kill things because we do it well enough already apparently. I wish we could raid and kill workers not just prevent mining. Who knows, we will need to see it before I know exacly how much damage it does. Then again if you pull all workers for 20 seconds thats a lot of lost mining time. So this essentially does the same thing. Yea, I get the reasoning, if the Oracle were 0 supply. But if I make a 200 supply army of deathball contributing units, that's still my maximum deathball capacity. They still have to balance the game if I decide to never make an Oracle. I would say 20s is rather stretching how much impact Entomb has, seeing as workers alone can kill the shields off in 10-12s. Also trading gas and supply for mineral opportunity cost is stretching it. Also the fact that the Oracle has no interesting unit dynamic to work with. Banshees and Mutas take micro and consistent harass. Oracle is fire and forget with no spectator value. Even Science Vessels got in the thick of things just to dodge Scourges/Mutas to get their fire and forget spells off. Kind of funny that your name is cloak and you forgot that the Oracle has a cloaking ability. Every side will have detection by the time Oracle cloak means anything. That's one thing I learned in RTS, if something doesn't actually destroy your opponent's resources, it will be balanced to uselessness. Nothing is more powerful than permanently stunting the growth/influence of your enemy. Shenanigans never survive the meta. Never see cloaked banshees anymore either. DTs are a hail mary pass, which similarly trade gas for scans (mineral opportunity cost). Having to over prepare for cloak is in itself an slight advantage. Every protoss playing will most likely being getting oracles to stunt their opponents econ. With nexus core having the ability to charge energy you could have some cloak gateway timings that hit pretty early. This is all speculation as the beta isn't even out yet. Oracle has potential I agree that not actually doing damage is bad. Also Preordain is a crappy ability at best. | ||
SilSol
Sweden2744 Posts
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:33 Vod.kaholic wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Tanks, hellions, Ghost EMP, Raven seeker missiles, Planetary Fortress, and Thor AA. But you know, no splash damage at all besides tanks. Terran's really hurting on the splash damage front. ah yes, the good old 200/200 planetary push, lol aside from tanks and arguably hellions, the rest are just irrelevant in the game, so yeah - no splash allowed, sorry. anywhoo, the mine was a useless unit to be begin with imo, making it more useless doesnt matter all that much | ||
mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:30 Cloak wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: On August 18 2012 10:20 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:14 ZeromuS wrote: On August 18 2012 10:10 Cloak wrote: Shredder was axed because of how instantly it destroyed mineral lines. Meanwhile, Oracle will never kill a damn thing. They dont want to add something that lets protoss kill things because we do it well enough already apparently. I wish we could raid and kill workers not just prevent mining. Who knows, we will need to see it before I know exacly how much damage it does. Then again if you pull all workers for 20 seconds thats a lot of lost mining time. So this essentially does the same thing. Yea, I get the reasoning, if the Oracle were 0 supply. But if I make a 200 supply army of deathball contributing units, that's still my maximum deathball capacity. They still have to balance the game if I decide to never make an Oracle. I would say 20s is rather stretching how much impact Entomb has, seeing as workers alone can kill the shields off in 10-12s. Also trading gas and supply for mineral opportunity cost is stretching it. Also the fact that the Oracle has no interesting unit dynamic to work with. Banshees and Mutas take micro and consistent harass. Oracle is fire and forget with no spectator value. Even Science Vessels got in the thick of things just to dodge Scourges/Mutas to get their fire and forget spells off. Kind of funny that your name is cloak and you forgot that the Oracle has a cloaking ability. Every side will have detection by the time Oracle cloak means anything. That's one thing I learned in RTS, if something doesn't actually destroy your opponent's resources, it will be balanced to uselessness. Nothing is more powerful than permanently stunting the growth/influence of your enemy. Shenanigans never survive the meta. Never see cloaked banshees anymore either. DTs are a hail mary pass, which similarly trade gas for scans (mineral opportunity cost). But to DT scan trade has a similar affect on the economy of the T as entomb would. It slows mining down.. Could you explain how they are different? | ||
SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:36 SKYFISH_ wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:33 Vod.kaholic wrote: On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Tanks, hellions, Ghost EMP, Raven seeker missiles, Planetary Fortress, and Thor AA. But you know, no splash damage at all besides tanks. Terran's really hurting on the splash damage front. ah yes, the good old 200/200 planetary push, lol aside from tanks and arguably hellions, the rest are just irrelevant in the game, so yeah - no splash allowed, sorry. anywhoo, the mine was a useless unit to be begin with imo, making it more useless doesnt matter all that much So you are fine with taking away EMP splash, and Thor anti-air sweet. sounds good to me. In all seriousness Widow mine is probably going to just be a clone of spider mine only hitting ground, and doing minimal damage. Cause Blizzard is kind of changing the game to look and work more like BW. | ||
Cloak
United States816 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:34 Probe1 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:30 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: On August 18 2012 10:20 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:14 ZeromuS wrote: On August 18 2012 10:10 Cloak wrote: Shredder was axed because of how instantly it destroyed mineral lines. Meanwhile, Oracle will never kill a damn thing. They dont want to add something that lets protoss kill things because we do it well enough already apparently. I wish we could raid and kill workers not just prevent mining. Who knows, we will need to see it before I know exacly how much damage it does. Then again if you pull all workers for 20 seconds thats a lot of lost mining time. So this essentially does the same thing. Yea, I get the reasoning, if the Oracle were 0 supply. But if I make a 200 supply army of deathball contributing units, that's still my maximum deathball capacity. They still have to balance the game if I decide to never make an Oracle. I would say 20s is rather stretching how much impact Entomb has, seeing as workers alone can kill the shields off in 10-12s. Also trading gas and supply for mineral opportunity cost is stretching it. Also the fact that the Oracle has no interesting unit dynamic to work with. Banshees and Mutas take micro and consistent harass. Oracle is fire and forget with no spectator value. Even Science Vessels got in the thick of things just to dodge Scourges/Mutas to get their fire and forget spells off. Kind of funny that your name is cloak and you forgot that the Oracle has a cloaking ability. Every side will have detection by the time Oracle cloak means anything. That's one thing I learned in RTS, if something doesn't actually destroy your opponent's resources, it will be balanced to uselessness. Nothing is more powerful than permanently stunting the growth/influence of your enemy. Shenanigans never survive the meta. Never see cloaked banshees anymore either. DTs are a hail mary pass, which similarly trade gas for scans (mineral opportunity cost). What amazing league or possibly different game do you play that no one uses cloaked banshees? I'm talking about pro games, but I play masters and, yea, I see cloaked stuff, but my level doesn't matter. | ||
SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:36 SKYFISH_ wrote: On August 18 2012 10:33 Vod.kaholic wrote: On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Tanks, hellions, Ghost EMP, Raven seeker missiles, Planetary Fortress, and Thor AA. But you know, no splash damage at all besides tanks. Terran's really hurting on the splash damage front. ah yes, the good old 200/200 planetary push, lol aside from tanks and arguably hellions, the rest are just irrelevant in the game, so yeah - no splash allowed, sorry. anywhoo, the mine was a useless unit to be begin with imo, making it more useless doesnt matter all that much So you are fine with taking away EMP splash, and Thor anti-air sweet. sounds good to me. In all seriousness Widow mine is probably going to just be a clone of spider mine only hitting ground, and doing minimal damage. Cause Blizzard is kind of changing the game to look and work more like BW. emp is an AOE spell that doesnt do damage realistically, so it doesnt count as for the thors - remove splash and buff attack speed - voila,its as useful as it ever was | ||
VictorJones
United States235 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:37 mango_destroyer wrote: no splash on widow mine is so dumb it is like they are caving in to the casuals again. is it really that hard to remove that unit from your army if it gets tagged by a widow mine? This has nothing to do with casual players. The terran army doesn't need a factory splash dmg dealing unit. They already have a couple of those that don't commit suicide. What Terran needs is a cost-efficient way to get rid of expensive units like infestors or broodlords that are not just as expensive for the terran to produce and way high up on the tech tree. Ghosts are the only unit that hard counters Infestors and HT's. Making the widow mine a unit that has the potential to kill these units at an earlier phase in the game is an intelligent call and will make the game better for terran players | ||
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:41 SKYFISH_ wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: On August 18 2012 10:36 SKYFISH_ wrote: On August 18 2012 10:33 Vod.kaholic wrote: On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Tanks, hellions, Ghost EMP, Raven seeker missiles, Planetary Fortress, and Thor AA. But you know, no splash damage at all besides tanks. Terran's really hurting on the splash damage front. ah yes, the good old 200/200 planetary push, lol aside from tanks and arguably hellions, the rest are just irrelevant in the game, so yeah - no splash allowed, sorry. anywhoo, the mine was a useless unit to be begin with imo, making it more useless doesnt matter all that much So you are fine with taking away EMP splash, and Thor anti-air sweet. sounds good to me. In all seriousness Widow mine is probably going to just be a clone of spider mine only hitting ground, and doing minimal damage. Cause Blizzard is kind of changing the game to look and work more like BW. emp is an AOE spell that doesnt do damage realistically, so it doesnt count as for the thors - remove splash and buff attack speed - voila,its as useful as it ever was EMP does do damage to Protoss armies. Shields are health, sure they recharge when they are out of combat for a couple seconds. But EMP does the most damage in the game instantly to the Protoss army. | ||
kinglemon
Germany199 Posts
10 FUCKING SECONDS! that's an eternity in such a game. but remove splash would be so boring. doesn't matter if it's more balanced or not, it would be just boring. why not make it like 3 seconds, with splash, but without ugly timer ? | ||
Cloak
United States816 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:38 VictorJones wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:30 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: On August 18 2012 10:20 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:14 ZeromuS wrote: On August 18 2012 10:10 Cloak wrote: Shredder was axed because of how instantly it destroyed mineral lines. Meanwhile, Oracle will never kill a damn thing. They dont want to add something that lets protoss kill things because we do it well enough already apparently. I wish we could raid and kill workers not just prevent mining. Who knows, we will need to see it before I know exacly how much damage it does. Then again if you pull all workers for 20 seconds thats a lot of lost mining time. So this essentially does the same thing. Yea, I get the reasoning, if the Oracle were 0 supply. But if I make a 200 supply army of deathball contributing units, that's still my maximum deathball capacity. They still have to balance the game if I decide to never make an Oracle. I would say 20s is rather stretching how much impact Entomb has, seeing as workers alone can kill the shields off in 10-12s. Also trading gas and supply for mineral opportunity cost is stretching it. Also the fact that the Oracle has no interesting unit dynamic to work with. Banshees and Mutas take micro and consistent harass. Oracle is fire and forget with no spectator value. Even Science Vessels got in the thick of things just to dodge Scourges/Mutas to get their fire and forget spells off. Kind of funny that your name is cloak and you forgot that the Oracle has a cloaking ability. Every side will have detection by the time Oracle cloak means anything. That's one thing I learned in RTS, if something doesn't actually destroy your opponent's resources, it will be balanced to uselessness. Nothing is more powerful than permanently stunting the growth/influence of your enemy. Shenanigans never survive the meta. Never see cloaked banshees anymore either. DTs are a hail mary pass, which similarly trade gas for scans (mineral opportunity cost). But to DT scan trade has a similar affect on the economy of the T as entomb would. It slows mining down.. Could you explain how they are different? I'm arguing that they are similar. And if all Protoss does is trade DTs for scans, Protoss is fucked. You need SCV kills, otherwise Terran can just steamroll you. Because surprise, surprise, sacrificing all that gas/minerals/supply for only minerals that will eventually be mined up anyway isn't a real good trade. It's especially more marginal when minerals become a slush fund in lategame, so right now Oracle has a very tiny opening window where it can actually slow down your opponent enough to do a 2 base all-in. That's where it's been pigeonholed at the moment. | ||
Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:33 Vod.kaholic wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Tanks, hellions, Ghost EMP, Raven seeker missiles, Planetary Fortress, and Thor AA. But you know, no splash damage at all besides tanks. Terran's really hurting on the splash damage front. -Tanks are good but easily countered/prevented from reaching critical mass in this game -Hellions will be good with Assault Mode, no doubt. But they have short range and are weak vs anything but light units. -EMP is decent but comes from a very specialized unit. -Seeker Missile has a range of 6 and is fired by a slow moving, armorless unit that costs 100m/225g/60s with less hp than warp prisms had pre-buff. The missile is also slow-moving, has a small splash radius, and is easily avoided, since its target is highlighted. -Planetary Fortresses have a very small splash radius and suffer from the problem of not being able to move. -Thor AA has a small AoE radius and is only truly dangerous vs light units. Terran sure have plenty of forms of AoE, but quality is what counts. Siege Tanks and EMP are the only Terran AoE spells that can be compared to what the other races have (Psionic Storm/Colossi/Archons and Banelings/Infestors/Ultralisks), since Seeker Missile is generally only effective when you suicide a murder of Ravens into a slow-moving deathball. Also, you forgot tactical nukes. | ||
VictorJones
United States235 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:44 Cloak wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:38 VictorJones wrote: On August 18 2012 10:30 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: On August 18 2012 10:20 Cloak wrote: On August 18 2012 10:14 ZeromuS wrote: On August 18 2012 10:10 Cloak wrote: Shredder was axed because of how instantly it destroyed mineral lines. Meanwhile, Oracle will never kill a damn thing. They dont want to add something that lets protoss kill things because we do it well enough already apparently. I wish we could raid and kill workers not just prevent mining. Who knows, we will need to see it before I know exacly how much damage it does. Then again if you pull all workers for 20 seconds thats a lot of lost mining time. So this essentially does the same thing. Yea, I get the reasoning, if the Oracle were 0 supply. But if I make a 200 supply army of deathball contributing units, that's still my maximum deathball capacity. They still have to balance the game if I decide to never make an Oracle. I would say 20s is rather stretching how much impact Entomb has, seeing as workers alone can kill the shields off in 10-12s. Also trading gas and supply for mineral opportunity cost is stretching it. Also the fact that the Oracle has no interesting unit dynamic to work with. Banshees and Mutas take micro and consistent harass. Oracle is fire and forget with no spectator value. Even Science Vessels got in the thick of things just to dodge Scourges/Mutas to get their fire and forget spells off. Kind of funny that your name is cloak and you forgot that the Oracle has a cloaking ability. Every side will have detection by the time Oracle cloak means anything. That's one thing I learned in RTS, if something doesn't actually destroy your opponent's resources, it will be balanced to uselessness. Nothing is more powerful than permanently stunting the growth/influence of your enemy. Shenanigans never survive the meta. Never see cloaked banshees anymore either. DTs are a hail mary pass, which similarly trade gas for scans (mineral opportunity cost). But to DT scan trade has a similar affect on the economy of the T as entomb would. It slows mining down.. Could you explain how they are different? I'm arguing that they are similar. And if all Protoss does is trade DTs for scans, Protoss is fucked. You need SCV kills, otherwise Terran can just steamroll you. Because surprise, surprise, sacrificing all that gas/minerals/supply for only minerals that will eventually be mined up anyway isn't a real good trade. It's especially more marginal when minerals become a slush fund in lategame, so right now Oracle has a very tiny opening window where it can actually slow down your opponent enough to do a 2 base all-in. That's where it's been pigeonholed at the moment. I now understand what you are saying. Thank you for clarifying. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's been pidgeonholed into anything given that the beta has been out for a couple of hours and no one has had a chance to experiment with the thing very much lol. I don't think I need to explain how none of us really know how useful the thing is gonna be since the numbers aren't final | ||
Pwnographics
New Zealand1097 Posts
A dedicated harrass spell just seems like the developers going "ooops we fucked up", at least an AoE movement speed debuff could be useful in so many situations and actually add some depth to the game. Just super sayin'. | ||
SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On August 18 2012 10:33 Vod.kaholic wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2012 10:19 SolidMoose wrote: On August 18 2012 09:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: On August 18 2012 09:22 forsooth wrote: No splash on the mine would make it a complete waste of time to build. This. And unfortunately the mine is the only decent unit (that actually fits into the core T theme of positional play) Terran is getting. Terran just isn't allowed to have splash besides tanks -_- Tanks, hellions, Ghost EMP, Raven seeker missiles, Planetary Fortress, and Thor AA. But you know, no splash damage at all besides tanks. Terran's really hurting on the splash damage front. All of those are either type specific (hellion and thor splash is god awful if they don't attack light units), race specific (emp) or aren't even units (PF). Raven only works in super lategame. I don't even understand why Terran would ever make a widow mine now except maybe for drop/oracle defense. Otherwise it's just "pray a big unit hits it" much in the same way nukes are "pray he doesn't see the dot" | ||
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