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On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed.
At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually.
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On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually.
the exact same thing can be said for zerg. think about it. what does a zerg do if he tries to be aggressive off of 2 base and what happens when his aggression fails or does no damage at all? he procceeds to lose the game because ALL of his core tech will be delayed. a 2 base zerg cant really do anything without it being an all in. even 3 base roach aggression is considered an all in nowadays now that protosses are handling it better with very good FFs and immortals.
its not like zerg can just make hydras and pressure a base without auto GGing if it fails. u cant baneling bust a toss that knows how to use sentries. zerg needs that critical infestor broodlord army because without it a zerg can do nothing. our only real option for aggression is mutas, and my problem with mutas is that it can be shut down so easily if scouted in time.
if you look at what toss has, DTs, warp prisms, 7 gates, and etc they have plenty to be aggressive with. make DTs at the right time and ur almost guranteed to do damage. (and by right time i dont mean rush DTs as fast as possible. DTs in the mid-late game will almost always catch zergs off guard)
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On August 28 2012 21:48 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually. the exact same thing can be said for zerg. think about it. what does a zerg do if he tries to be aggressive off of 2 base and what happens when his aggression fails or does no damage at all? he procceeds to lose the game because ALL of his core tech will be delayed. a 2 base zerg cant really do anything without it being an all in. even 3 base roach aggression is considered an all in nowadays now that protosses are handling it better with very good FFs and immortals. its not like zerg can just make hydras and pressure a base without auto GGing if it fails. u cant baneling bust a toss that knows how to use sentries. and 3 base roach is not cutting it anymore.
3 base is the new standard in zvp and zvt (albeit the 3rd is later than in zvp), it's just the way the metagame is. And the 3 base max roach is not as all in as a protoss 2 base attack, I've seen zergs come back after a failed max roach push.
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On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually. Yeah, but the ability as it's now seems too forgiving. It looks bad for balance and even bad from viewers standpoint. But we will see in beta. Maybe they will just strait up remove it or change it a little. Maybe units, while warping back, will take damage and do nothing like new units warping in? or something different.....
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On August 28 2012 21:51 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:48 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually. the exact same thing can be said for zerg. think about it. what does a zerg do if he tries to be aggressive off of 2 base and what happens when his aggression fails or does no damage at all? he procceeds to lose the game because ALL of his core tech will be delayed. a 2 base zerg cant really do anything without it being an all in. even 3 base roach aggression is considered an all in nowadays now that protosses are handling it better with very good FFs and immortals. its not like zerg can just make hydras and pressure a base without auto GGing if it fails. u cant baneling bust a toss that knows how to use sentries. and 3 base roach is not cutting it anymore. 3 base is the new standard in zvp and zvt (albeit the 3rd is later than in zvp), it's just the way the metagame is. And the 3 base max roach is not as all in as a protoss 2 base attack, I've seen zergs come back after a failed max roach push.
they can come back after that, but you have to understand how hard it is. everything is delayed so significantly with a 3 base roach build. during that time toss has a huge window to push with his traditional deathball and just end the game. which is why u need to do significant damage with that build to prevent such a counter attack.
also a 2 base attack from toss is not really all in unless it falls extremly flat on its ass. even if it fails zerg cant really counter atk because of sentry turling. same thing zvt. zerg cant really counter atk a terran if his push fails unless it fails extremly hard. thats why swarm hosts are being added to the game to fix that issue. the zvp match up during the early-mid game can go either way because both sides are put in somewhat equal positions.
a toss IMO should never have or need to atk the zerg with his main army. macro tosses are honestly the hardest to deal with when they use warp prism to harass and keep zerg in his base while he takes additional bases. its a shame tho since most toss players never make more than 1 warp prism for harassment when 2 or even 3 can do so much dmg to multiple bases. DT warps in main, zealot warps at expansions, almost guranteed damage all while keeping sentries and main army back at home to defend against counters. likewise the same can be said for zerg but to a lesser extent. the only real options zerg has to keep toss in his base (without using the main army) is mutas and nydus worms or drop play. and out of those 3 mutas are the only viable option.
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On August 28 2012 21:48 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually. the exact same thing can be said for zerg. think about it. what does a zerg do if he tries to be aggressive off of 2 base and what happens when his aggression fails or does no damage at all? he procceeds to lose the game because ALL of his core tech will be delayed. a 2 base zerg cant really do anything without it being an all in. even 3 base roach aggression is considered an all in nowadays now that protosses are handling it better with very good FFs and immortals. its not like zerg can just make hydras and pressure a base without auto GGing if it fails. u cant baneling bust a toss that knows how to use sentries. zerg needs that critical infestor broodlord army because without it a zerg can do nothing. our only real option for aggression is mutas, and my problem with mutas is that it can be shut down so easily if scouted in time. if you look at what toss has, DTs, warp prisms, 7 gates, and etc they have plenty to be aggressive with. make DTs at the right time and ur almost guranteed to do damage. (and by right time i dont mean rush DTs as fast as possible. DTs in the mid-late game will almost always catch zergs off guard)
And that's why zerg gets the swarm host. A unit that can fight ground, air and siege your opponents wall/defensive position, without having to allin. ZvP will change drastically, if the core and the host work out as intended. 3base Zerg might not be viable against nexus-->gate-->core openings at all, swarm hosts could make 2base fast lair Zerg stronger than 3base Zerg ever was.
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On August 28 2012 22:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:48 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually. the exact same thing can be said for zerg. think about it. what does a zerg do if he tries to be aggressive off of 2 base and what happens when his aggression fails or does no damage at all? he procceeds to lose the game because ALL of his core tech will be delayed. a 2 base zerg cant really do anything without it being an all in. even 3 base roach aggression is considered an all in nowadays now that protosses are handling it better with very good FFs and immortals. its not like zerg can just make hydras and pressure a base without auto GGing if it fails. u cant baneling bust a toss that knows how to use sentries. zerg needs that critical infestor broodlord army because without it a zerg can do nothing. our only real option for aggression is mutas, and my problem with mutas is that it can be shut down so easily if scouted in time. if you look at what toss has, DTs, warp prisms, 7 gates, and etc they have plenty to be aggressive with. make DTs at the right time and ur almost guranteed to do damage. (and by right time i dont mean rush DTs as fast as possible. DTs in the mid-late game will almost always catch zergs off guard) And that's why zerg gets the swarm host. A unit that can fight ground, air and siege your opponents wall/defensive position, without having to allin. ZvP will change drastically, if the core and the host work out as intended. 3base Zerg might not be viable against nexus-->gate-->core openings at all, swarm hosts could make 2base fast lair Zerg stronger than 3base Zerg ever was.
swarm host is extremly mineral heavy for zerg, 200 minerals a pop for a mid game unit. zerg will still need that 3rd since u wont have many swarm hosts on 2 base. and u do need alot of swarm hosts to be effective. u cant just make 4 and say "im safe now". the way they work is the same as broods, u need a lot.
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On August 28 2012 21:05 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 20:59 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On August 28 2012 16:34 Grumbels wrote:On August 28 2012 15:01 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On August 28 2012 10:57 kaokentake wrote: given the PvT meta has mostly been figured out in the 2+ years of competitive sc2 play, I contest that warpgates are a incredibly important aspect of protoss in defending multi-pronged terran attacks
without warpgates, protoss would be helpless in the PvT matchup. I know if warpgates were remove protoss would likely get buffs in other areas to compensate, and my point was basically just that. To everyone complaining about warpgates, realize protoss WOULD get buffed in other areas if they were removed because just look at current PvT, without warpgates terran would have a near 100% winrate
so i guess im saying if your complaining about warpgates, realize their removal would only mean other buffs to protoss which in the end would mean protoss would be just as strong as before their removal, meaning i guess if you have a problem with the "opness" of warpgates you should stop talking, but if you have a problem with the "design" of warpgates then i guess you have a fair opinion as long as you agree removing warpgates would mean buffs needed to other areas of protoss I have an issue with the design as you state - I mean there's nothing stopping a player having for example 3 warpgates and 4 regular gates. The regular gates are spitting our consistent, regular units for the player slightly quicker than the warpgates and the player needs to manage those warpgates and their cooldown regarding drops and so on. I dunno, someone else here put me on the idea and I can't get it out of my head that it seems genuinely backwards. Also yes, of course they would 're-adjust' the balance to accomodate this. It just seems like a good idea. Pretend you've never played SC2 before and you explain to someone ok so you build a gateway and it produces units, just like a barracks - now it spits out a zealot in nearly 40 seconds for you at that building. However you can upgrade the building and make it produce units anywhere on the map that you have power. 99% of people would go "but it takes longer, right, right?" It's simply not logical. No, it's bad design because it's weird and confusing to have, say, zealots producing from gateways and then some from warpgates. It's ridiculous needless complexity and people should stop salivating at this idea. Furthermore, at a certain point in the game you will only want warpgates anyway, because the production is frontloaded and so superior to gateways whenever you're producing inconsistently. And in late-game you can afford more warpgates to begin with, unless you make it really expensive. So it's hard to balance and feels weird. What I think people want to happen with these type of designs is a way to convince Blizzard to essentially neuter warpgate so it disappears, but in that case why not just argue for its removal? If you want to have, say, a nexus skill that can teleport units somewhere in pylon power then why not ask for it? It's simply illogical how it is, it makes no sense that the gates with the 'better features' (warp) have no drawbacks. It's just,... well silly. Well, I just don't agree. I think it is okay to have clear upgrades. Maybe that's the problem with warpgate to begin with, that it can never be a clear upgrade.
That is most definitely the problem, it's an upgrade which everyone gets, every game, regardless. It pretty much should just be a warpgate as default with a longer initial build time (for early balance) :/ because it's current implimentation, gateways are useless.
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On August 28 2012 14:57 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 10:42 Jumbled wrote:On August 28 2012 10:37 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On August 28 2012 02:00 NicolBolas wrote:On August 27 2012 23:00 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: I'm still mentally caught up on the warpgates in the game, I can't get over the post I read (and agreed with) a week or two ago talking about how broken they are. It's SO ridiculous that WG tech which is obviously beneficial ALSO has a lower cooldown then regular gates. It's just silly, the warpgate should be a tradeoff, slightly LONGER cooldown on warpins on the warpgate compared to the build times of the gateway. I don't know if it should be 3 seconds or 5 or 10, I don't care that's up to Blizzard and the community at large.
What I do care is that it's currently illogical, there's just no actual point in the gateway anymore. The game would be so much more exciting if it was a tradeoff and so someone had to opt for Warp prism warp in / drops but the defender had regular gates with 3 to 5 second shorter build times - it's a concession / tradeoff which makes sense. That's because you're thinking of it wrong. If it were at all possible without completely breaking the game, WarpGates would replace Gateways entirely. The only reason why Gateways still exist in the game is because you can't give the Protoss the ability to teleport units into arbitrary locations that early. To put it another way, Blizzard doesn't want contention between WG and Gateways. They want WarpGates, period; they settled for having to make them from gateways (though one might reasonably say that if you can't make the feature the way you wanted, maybe it's not the right feature). ' I don't want warpgates entirely though - think of how interesting it would be if there was 2 different ways to look at this, gateways with a shorter build time but managing an army spawning back at the base or warpgates. It would be very interesting if the build time / cooldown was balanced right. I understand in the early game, having warpgate only would be a major issue though. It's not really a good idea though. This would only impact the mid game, and warp gate use is more or less fine there already. In the lategame, all it would mean is that Protoss players would build a few more warp gates. The mid game is the average game and the whole point isn't about balance actually. I don't have a major issue with Protoss having warpgates - I have an issue with Protoss having them and not having to manage anything around them. Regardless if you like or disliike warpgates - the idea of having to manage regular gateways with a shorter build time and working with that tradeoff could make for more interesting matches and that's what I want - a more interesting game to spectate.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by manage, but WG does take a certain amount of management if you want to keep track of your cooldowns (for instance). It's not like simply putting another unit in the queue as you would with standard Gates. This is also because different units lead to different cool down times on WG (Zealots are way faster than High Templars for instance) so that depending on your production, you may have multiple WG with multiple different cooldown timings. This gets even more complicated when you add in CB and the ability to CB either all your WG or selected WG (say those ones which have just produced High Templars) so that you can, possibly, have a more uniform WG cooldown on the next cycle.
In terms of gameplay, there is also the idea of "Powering" where you may make many WG which may remain largely idle but then burst produce when needed, along with CB. So, you may be able to produce out of successive bursts.
I get what you mean, by the way, with regard to WG vs Gateway. But, and I must state here that I don't know much about the beta for WOL, but, IIRC, WG was much faster in its original production time and as the game proceeded Blizzard moved it further and further back to its current 160 seconds research time after Cybercore. It may be that the original intent was to always have WG. However, that said, the option to revert to Gateways is odd. Maybe it's just a minor error by Blizzard.
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On August 29 2012 07:22 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 22:19 Big J wrote:On August 28 2012 21:48 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually. the exact same thing can be said for zerg. think about it. what does a zerg do if he tries to be aggressive off of 2 base and what happens when his aggression fails or does no damage at all? he procceeds to lose the game because ALL of his core tech will be delayed. a 2 base zerg cant really do anything without it being an all in. even 3 base roach aggression is considered an all in nowadays now that protosses are handling it better with very good FFs and immortals. its not like zerg can just make hydras and pressure a base without auto GGing if it fails. u cant baneling bust a toss that knows how to use sentries. zerg needs that critical infestor broodlord army because without it a zerg can do nothing. our only real option for aggression is mutas, and my problem with mutas is that it can be shut down so easily if scouted in time. if you look at what toss has, DTs, warp prisms, 7 gates, and etc they have plenty to be aggressive with. make DTs at the right time and ur almost guranteed to do damage. (and by right time i dont mean rush DTs as fast as possible. DTs in the mid-late game will almost always catch zergs off guard) And that's why zerg gets the swarm host. A unit that can fight ground, air and siege your opponents wall/defensive position, without having to allin. ZvP will change drastically, if the core and the host work out as intended. 3base Zerg might not be viable against nexus-->gate-->core openings at all, swarm hosts could make 2base fast lair Zerg stronger than 3base Zerg ever was. swarm host is extremly mineral heavy for zerg, 200 minerals a pop for a mid game unit. zerg will still need that 3rd since u wont have many swarm hosts on 2 base. and u do need alot of swarm hosts to be effective. u cant just make 4 and say "im safe now". the way they work is the same as broods, u need a lot.
No, go and try them on the HotS Custom map. They are nothing like Broodlords. And you don't need a lot of bases. 2base swarm host rush is extremly potent, because you don't need a lot of gas early and can start a siege around 9mins.
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On August 28 2012 21:43 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:32 Ballistixz wrote:On August 28 2012 02:46 Empirimancer wrote:On August 28 2012 02:38 Shady Sands wrote:On August 28 2012 02:31 unteqair wrote: I saw that the 4-gate comes much more quickly in an HD starcraft video. This is because the mothership core. You guys should check it out to see what you may think. --This. I'd love it if they just took out the mothership core altogether. Having the best rush option in the game (super fast 4gate + mass recall home) is not something that the race with the best T3 deathball should also have. The mothership core is the only cool thing Protoss get in HotS. And no, Zerg have a better deathball, although that title might go to Terran mech in the expansion. That said, having a faster warpgate would be pretty bad for all PvX matchups. But isn't that caused by the mothership core casting energize on the nexus for more chronoboosts? And I believe that's not possible anymore. thats a cool joke. first thing i want to address with this post is that zerg does not have a better deathball. if anything the toss death ball and zerg death ball are EQUAL with each other since one wrong step or mismicro can cause either player to lose the game. toss gets vortex off on the zerg army its gg for zerg, it zerg NPs the mothership and vortexes the toss army its GG for toss. (funny how its one unit, the mother ship, that causes that causes all the chaos but i digress.) 2ndly theres one main issue that i have with the mother ship core and that is the recall ability. anyone can with eyes can see how often that will be abused if not changed significantly. toss can literally make suicidal attacks while at the same time removing the "suicidal" from the equation. u can send a shit ton of sentries and ramp run a zerg, take out w/e tech u want and recall back without losing much of anything when normally an atk like that would result in the loss of his entire sentry force. the toss is literally in no danger at all atking now because of the recall ability being on the nexus. i find that to be very troublesome. and what bugs me even more about it is how early its available. you can litterally all in the hell out of ur opponent and if it fails u can recall back to home without losing much of anything, giving urself a chance to get back into the game and avoid counter atks. if anything i think that the recall ability on the Mship core should be removed. At the moment, the vast majority of toss moving out in the early game is an all in vs zerg, pvp it really depends on the opening build and pvt you are extremely vulnerable to drops/doom drops. Protoss need a way to be aggressive in the early-mid game without it being all in, and recall goes some way to accomplishing that. I agree it will be an extremely powerful ability, but it will be balanced eventually.
Definetly. The problem is that Sentries are expensive units, and 100 each makes any attack All-In. And any attack without them pretty much gets shut down by Tier 1 Zerg and Terran.
I hope the Oracle changes that. The cloak ability is pretty sweet. Just add a instant shield recharge ability and the Oracle is bank.
As for, the Core. I really don't like it. The cannon idea is pretty bland, and it other abilities are pretty stupid. It's pretty much a Queen/PF. Protoss is better off having a passive ability that units withing Pylon power range recharge shield and energy faster.
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