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On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ.
Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control.
Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore.
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Northern Ireland25742 Posts
On August 14 2012 08:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha)
Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ. Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control. Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore.
Ah yes, especially MMA at his peak vs DRG at his peak, close to the finest Starcraft 2 yet seen, some real classic series were witnessed. Also much preferred muta-based styles, the balance between fragile harass units with great mobility and the stronger marine/tank compositions had razor-thin margins for both sides.
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I remember even being particularly bad at that matchup at the time, but I really did feel like I could do things to improve my play. I would get frustrated at my micro, but understand that was what needed to get better. Now I'm at a loss as to what I need to improve, because I can't compete with the macro without leaving myself open to popular ladder all-ins. Even without the all-ins though, it's hard to compete with the macro.
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Northern Ireland25742 Posts
On August 14 2012 08:23 aksfjh wrote:
I remember even being particularly bad at that matchup at the time, but I really did feel like I could do things to improve my play. I would get frustrated at my micro, but understand that was what needed to get better. Now I'm at a loss as to what I need to improve, because I can't compete with the macro without leaving myself open to popular ladder all-ins. Even without the all-ins though, it's hard to compete with the macro.
At least you have your prior experience to fall back on, I'm trying to raceswitch to Terran NOW. I've gotten the intensity and fun back into playing, but at the expense of my wrists/sanity
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On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one?
I don't even know where to begin.
The part where you claim getting GM as Zerg is the easiest thing in the world, but you don't do it because it's pointless.
The part where you say Zerg T3 comes faster than the other races.
The part where you wax poetically over the past meta, even though the game evolved past those without even taking the Blizzard balance changes into consideration.
I mentioned it 2 pages ago, I'm going to throw it here again just so its out there because it crushes pretty much any argument you've tried to make right now.
Win rates have been better since patch 1.4.3 for Protoss than for Zerg.
Add to that:
Korean Terrans CURRENTLY have a positive winrate in TvZ.
Tell me more about how easy it is to play Zerg in SC2 right now.
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TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will.
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On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will.
The look at things from the Zerg perspective.
Force field, Siege Tanks, lack of any decent ranged units, and the fact that Zerg spends the first 10 minutes catching up to the other two races as far as macro is concerned all makes attacking before the 11-12 minute mark suicide.
Give Zerg early game options and a reason to do anything other than expand, expand, expand.
Don't just sit there and talk about the bullshit that is T3 when it is literally Zergs ONLY viable offense against the most standard of standard play.
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I was a zerg player for the last 2 years until recently switching to terran just for the pure fact that Terran seems more fun and has mUch more cool and unique strategys. My opinion of the zvt matchup is that I do feel that the queen buff was necessary for the early game, because there were to many gimmicks the Zerg was suceptible to, but with that being said, now Zerg t3 comes way to fast and way to strong. So they need to someway even out the scale, now that Zerg is safe early game, their t3 time should be nerfed somehow, like make the build time of hive, greater spire, or ultra den longer. Another thing they could possibly try is to buff Viking assault mode dps and health, I could see that helping out a lot of the problems in tvz and tvp. This could be OP, but what about Viking assault mode being healed by medicacs? Just some ideas, tell me what u guys think.
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On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will.
Yeah, I think I'm done with Jermstuddog. Too much wrong for my brain to process. I can only pray that Blizzard sees the light.
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On August 14 2012 08:37 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. The look at things from the Zerg perspective. Force field, Siege Tanks, lack of any decent ranged units, and the fact that Zerg spends the first 10 minutes catching up to the other two races as far as macro is concerned all makes attacking before the 11-12 minute mark suicide. Give Zerg early game options and a reason to do anything other than expand, expand, expand. Don't just sit there and talk about the bullshit that is T3 when it is literally Zergs ONLY viable offense against the most standard of standard play.
Zerg have ALWAYS defaulted to "expand, expand, expand." Only in a few select tourney runs have we seen a Zerg play a mostly aggressive style, and it's been mostly successful. If you want a good example, look how SuHoSin got into Code S last season. He did virtually the same roach baneling all-in for every TvZ and beat out Polt and Jjakji. It was like a throwback to the days of BitByBit, except with Zerg. It wasn't revolutionary or clever, just super strong and punishing to any Terran going Hellions or 3 OC.
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On August 14 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. Yeah, I think I'm done with Jermstuddog. Too much wrong for my brain to process. I can only pray that Blizzard sees the light.
I've given up on Blizzard. SC2 is just one of many games they've let me down on now. I'm just a bitter vet at this point...
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On August 14 2012 08:54 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. Yeah, I think I'm done with Jermstuddog. Too much wrong for my brain to process. I can only pray that Blizzard sees the light. I've given up on Blizzard. SC2 is just one of many games they've let me down on now. I'm just a bitter vet at this point...
At least it's still the best eSport right now. And at LEAST it's better than Diablo 3.
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Northern Ireland25742 Posts
On August 14 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:54 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. Yeah, I think I'm done with Jermstuddog. Too much wrong for my brain to process. I can only pray that Blizzard sees the light. I've given up on Blizzard. SC2 is just one of many games they've let me down on now. I'm just a bitter vet at this point... At least it's still the best eSport right now. And at LEAST it's better than Diablo 3.
It's only so frustrating because it really only needs minor tweaks that will make the game better, for players of all abilities.
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On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will.
tvz and pvz are so boring to watch.
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On August 14 2012 09:05 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:54 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. Yeah, I think I'm done with Jermstuddog. Too much wrong for my brain to process. I can only pray that Blizzard sees the light. I've given up on Blizzard. SC2 is just one of many games they've let me down on now. I'm just a bitter vet at this point... At least it's still the best eSport right now. And at LEAST it's better than Diablo 3. It's only so frustrating because it really only needs minor tweaks that will make the game better, for players of all abilities.
Yeah. I mean, while a redesign of certain things would be ideal, it would be SO EASY for Blizzard to make this game more interesting if they were willing to tinker with mainstay units like Colossi and Infestors in a transparent, feedback-oriented manner. I've always felt that Blizzard balances around the problem (Creep too much of an advantage because it blocks pressure? Make it spread slightly more slowly rather than making, say, a bold nerf to the initial spread or even function; similarly, too many problems with Fungal? Indirectly buff the counters, like Colossi, by nerfing Neural, rather than actually dealing with Infestors. Same goes for early Marine-centric changes).
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On August 14 2012 08:49 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:37 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. The look at things from the Zerg perspective. Force field, Siege Tanks, lack of any decent ranged units, and the fact that Zerg spends the first 10 minutes catching up to the other two races as far as macro is concerned all makes attacking before the 11-12 minute mark suicide. Give Zerg early game options and a reason to do anything other than expand, expand, expand. Don't just sit there and talk about the bullshit that is T3 when it is literally Zergs ONLY viable offense against the most standard of standard play. Zerg have ALWAYS defaulted to "expand, expand, expand." Only in a few select tourney runs have we seen a Zerg play a mostly aggressive style, and it's been mostly successful. If you want a good example, look how SuHoSin got into Code S last season. He did virtually the same roach baneling all-in for every TvZ and beat out Polt and Jjakji. It was like a throwback to the days of BitByBit, except with Zerg. It wasn't revolutionary or clever, just super strong and punishing to any Terran going Hellions or 3 OC.
Oh man... talking about Zerg aggression and bitbybit in the same breath. This just gets better and better.
Here's a secret that you might not realize. Everybody knew bitbybit was going to allin, it didn't fucking matter, that's how strong it was. Speaking from the ZvT side of things if Zerg doesn't expand by about the 2 minute mark, it doesn't fucking matter what Terran does, he's going to win anyway.
Going back to the time when bitbybit was in his prime. Zerg had to expand at <20 supply when faced with:
60 second build-time on barracks (now 65)
30 second build-time bunkers that salvage for 100% (now 40)
0-threat repairing SCVs (now inherits threat of repair target)
140 second stim (now 170)
All of these things went in to making bitbybit's SCV all-in a coin-flip at worst for him no scouting required really.
The roach/bane bust you reference at the same time requires prior scouting on the Zergs part, poor preparation on the Terrans part, is significantly slower and less flexible, and STILL isn't nearly as effective as the allin that made bitbybit famous.
The QQ in this thread is too strong... I don't think I can hold on...
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On August 14 2012 09:11 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:49 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:37 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. The look at things from the Zerg perspective. Force field, Siege Tanks, lack of any decent ranged units, and the fact that Zerg spends the first 10 minutes catching up to the other two races as far as macro is concerned all makes attacking before the 11-12 minute mark suicide. Give Zerg early game options and a reason to do anything other than expand, expand, expand. Don't just sit there and talk about the bullshit that is T3 when it is literally Zergs ONLY viable offense against the most standard of standard play. Zerg have ALWAYS defaulted to "expand, expand, expand." Only in a few select tourney runs have we seen a Zerg play a mostly aggressive style, and it's been mostly successful. If you want a good example, look how SuHoSin got into Code S last season. He did virtually the same roach baneling all-in for every TvZ and beat out Polt and Jjakji. It was like a throwback to the days of BitByBit, except with Zerg. It wasn't revolutionary or clever, just super strong and punishing to any Terran going Hellions or 3 OC. Oh man... talking about Zerg aggression and bitbybit in the same breath. This just gets better and better. Here's a secret that you might not realize. Everybody knew bitbybit was going to allin, it didn't fucking matter, that's how strong it was. Speaking from the ZvT side of things if Zerg doesn't expand by about the 2 minute mark, it doesn't fucking matter what Terran does, he's going to win anyway. Going back to the time when bitbybit was in his prime. Zerg had to expand at <20 supply when faced with: 60 second build-time on barracks (now 65) 30 second build-time bunkers that salvage for 100% (now 40) 0-threat repairing SCVs (now inherits threat of repair target) 140 second stim (now 170) All of these things went in to making bitbybit's SCV all-in a coin-flip at worst for him no scouting required really. The roach/bane bust you reference at the same time requires prior scouting on the Zergs part, poor preparation on the Terrans part, is significantly slower and less flexible, and STILL isn't nearly as effective as the allin that made bitbybit famous. The QQ in this thread is too strong... I don't think I can hold on...
Then leave. You clearly don't understand SC2 anyways, nor how to write paragraphs.
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Hey has blizzard said anything about how they feel about how the changes have impacted the game?? I think it would be against what they want to nerf the creep in this manner I see only the raven change going through
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Northern Ireland25742 Posts
On August 14 2012 09:16 Msr wrote:
Hey has blizzard said anything about how they feel about how the changes have impacted the game?? I think it would be against what they want to nerf the creep in this manner I see only the raven change going through
I guess by screwing around with things and tinkering that's a tacit admission they may have got it a little wrong with the last balance patch. Blizz to their credit at least give some communication on this regard, they could probably do a better job but it's reasonably acceptable to me
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I think this is the right way to go. TvZ games nowadays are less likely to end with an early Terran all-in, and people like Taeja have been demonstrating some very good (albeit EXTREMELY skill-intensive) ways to pressure the Zerg and throw aside some of the issues people have been having.
Blizzard is trying to balance the game both for the experience of the spectator AND the ability of players at all levels to be relatively successful. I believe that the initial range 5 Queen buff which caused so much consternation was an attempt to provoke a longer, more variety-filled game in TvZ, as opposed to: Reactor Hellion contain -> Medivac/Marine -> Tank pushes -> massive Tank lines you can't attack into without Broodlords that defined almost every single game played in TvZ. It was very balanced, but I think Blizzard wanted to shake up what they perceived as a slightly stale feeling. The Queen buff has certainly done that.
The Queen buff was probably overkill, hence the proposed creep nerf and Raven buff, both of which I think will benefit the game. What's a unit that doesn't get used very often? Ravens. Why not? Fungal and Feedback roflstomp them. Ergo, buff the speed and acceleration so that players with good micro can start to avoid at least the AoE-based Fungal, if not Feedback (although, frankly, if you're building Ravens versus Protoss and you're NOT going 1-1-1, you're bonkers).
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EPT
