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On August 14 2012 08:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha)
Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ. Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control. Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore.
I do miss these days. When win rates were 50% and the MU was beautiful to watch.
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On August 14 2012 08:31 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I don't even know where to begin. The part where you claim getting GM as Zerg is the easiest thing in the world, but you don't do it because it's pointless. The part where you say Zerg T3 comes faster than the other races. The part where you wax poetically over the past meta, even though the game evolved past those without even taking the Blizzard balance changes into consideration. I mentioned it 2 pages ago, I'm going to throw it here again just so its out there because it crushes pretty much any argument you've tried to make right now. Win rates have been better since patch 1.4.3 for Protoss than for Zerg. Add to that: Korean Terrans CURRENTLY have a positive winrate in TvZ. Tell me more about how easy it is to play Zerg in SC2 right now.
Actually, if you subtract the outliners of Taeja and Gumiho, the win rate of TvZ for Korea DROPS to 47.5%, which is not in the positive. And so even with the best players in the world as Terran, w/o these two outliners, they still can't eclipse 50%.
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On August 14 2012 10:43 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg.
The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ. Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control. Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore. I do miss these days. When win rates were 50% and the MU was beautiful to watch.
You mean the days when code S was 70% terran?
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
On August 14 2012 11:17 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 10:43 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 08:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ. Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control. Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore. I do miss these days. When win rates were 50% and the MU was beautiful to watch. You mean the days when code S was 70% terran?
What is with this attitude that people always hark back to a period in the game over a year ago, in which most even-minded people would not have fond memories of?
I don't main T or Z, but as an observer and appreciator of good, back-and-forth action I preferred how TvZ was played in the pre-Queen buff days. There are still cool series here and there, but nothing of the calibre of say, DRG vs MMA in the Blizzard Cup Finals
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On August 14 2012 10:43 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg.
The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ. Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control. Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore. I do miss these days. When win rates were 50% and the MU was beautiful to watch.
i'm very embarrassed atm by ur comment there... this is why ppl call US a stupid country.
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On August 14 2012 10:45 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:31 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha)
Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I don't even know where to begin. The part where you claim getting GM as Zerg is the easiest thing in the world, but you don't do it because it's pointless. The part where you say Zerg T3 comes faster than the other races. The part where you wax poetically over the past meta, even though the game evolved past those without even taking the Blizzard balance changes into consideration. I mentioned it 2 pages ago, I'm going to throw it here again just so its out there because it crushes pretty much any argument you've tried to make right now. Win rates have been better since patch 1.4.3 for Protoss than for Zerg. Add to that: Korean Terrans CURRENTLY have a positive winrate in TvZ. Tell me more about how easy it is to play Zerg in SC2 right now. Actually, if you subtract the outliners of Taeja and Gumiho, the win rate of TvZ for Korea DROPS to 47.5%, which is not in the positive. And so even with the best players in the world as Terran, w/o these two outliners, they still can't eclipse 50%.
See guys! If we skew the numbers by arbitrarily removing the two most successful members of our race in the match-up and make a baseless claim that our players are inherently superior we can justify being hysterical over a non existent 2.5% win deficit. Terran tears go go.
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On August 14 2012 10:40 Jazzman88 wrote:
The Queen buff was probably overkill, hence the proposed creep nerf and Raven buff, both of which I think will benefit the game. What's a unit that doesn't get used very often? Ravens. Why not? Fungal and Feedback roflstomp them. Ergo, buff the speed and acceleration so that players with good micro can start to avoid at least the AoE-based Fungal, if not Feedback (although, frankly, if you're building Ravens versus Protoss and you're NOT going 1-1-1, you're bonkers).
Care to explain how Ravens being slightly faster will help against 9-range Fungal when you have to move forward to cast a 6-range spell?
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On August 14 2012 11:32 Haustka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 10:43 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 08:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ. Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control. Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore. I do miss these days. When win rates were 50% and the MU was beautiful to watch. i'm very embarrassed atm by ur comment there... this is why ppl call US a stupid country.
It was a great matchup once it got past the early game, the problem is that because Zerg is so safe early game now, they can now tech a tiny bit to fast in some areas, if they make late game like it was before, then the matchuP will be wonderful. The only reason why Terran was so op before was because of how much DMg they could do early game, now that zerg is safer early game, they need to be slightly tweaked later game. Any comments would be awesome, I am no expert nor do I claim to be. Sry for he typos lol it's hard to type all this on my phone
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On August 14 2012 11:17 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 10:43 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 08:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 08:14 aksfjh wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ. Yeah. It was such a sweet matchup. The better player won, and you could make comebacks based on having good control. Now they made it so easy to get to BLs that the other part doesn't even happen anymore. I do miss these days. When win rates were 50% and the MU was beautiful to watch. You mean the days when code S was 70% terran?
The top level of korean play doesn't need to have perfect racial distribution for the game to be balanced.
If you think it does, you suck at statistics.
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On August 14 2012 11:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 10:40 Jazzman88 wrote:
The Queen buff was probably overkill, hence the proposed creep nerf and Raven buff, both of which I think will benefit the game. What's a unit that doesn't get used very often? Ravens. Why not? Fungal and Feedback roflstomp them. Ergo, buff the speed and acceleration so that players with good micro can start to avoid at least the AoE-based Fungal, if not Feedback (although, frankly, if you're building Ravens versus Protoss and you're NOT going 1-1-1, you're bonkers). Care to explain how Ravens being slightly faster will help against 9-range Fungal when you have to move forward to cast a 6-range spell?
Would help splitting them up. So, not all the ravens get caught in fungals.
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3815 Posts
On August 14 2012 11:57 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 14 2012 10:40 Jazzman88 wrote:
The Queen buff was probably overkill, hence the proposed creep nerf and Raven buff, both of which I think will benefit the game. What's a unit that doesn't get used very often? Ravens. Why not? Fungal and Feedback roflstomp them. Ergo, buff the speed and acceleration so that players with good micro can start to avoid at least the AoE-based Fungal, if not Feedback (although, frankly, if you're building Ravens versus Protoss and you're NOT going 1-1-1, you're bonkers). Care to explain how Ravens being slightly faster will help against 9-range Fungal when you have to move forward to cast a 6-range spell? Would help splitting them up. So, not all the ravens get caught in fungals.
The problem is that Ravens take an eon to make. Since Fungal is the least forgiving spell in the game, clumping for literally a second by accident at any point in the ENTIRE GAME means you are going to lose thousands of gas of investment for an extremely minuscule mistake.
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
On August 14 2012 11:58 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:57 plogamer wrote:On August 14 2012 11:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 14 2012 10:40 Jazzman88 wrote:
The Queen buff was probably overkill, hence the proposed creep nerf and Raven buff, both of which I think will benefit the game. What's a unit that doesn't get used very often? Ravens. Why not? Fungal and Feedback roflstomp them. Ergo, buff the speed and acceleration so that players with good micro can start to avoid at least the AoE-based Fungal, if not Feedback (although, frankly, if you're building Ravens versus Protoss and you're NOT going 1-1-1, you're bonkers). Care to explain how Ravens being slightly faster will help against 9-range Fungal when you have to move forward to cast a 6-range spell? Would help splitting them up. So, not all the ravens get caught in fungals. The problem is that Ravens take an eon to make. Since Fungal is the least forgiving spell in the game, clumping for literally a second by accident at any point in the ENTIRE GAME means you are going to lose thousands of gas of investment for an extremely minuscule mistake.
Likewise you need to keep replenishing your medivacs if your bio is to have any lategame utility, it is really difficult to sprinkle in Ravens while you're doing that. Medivacs don't tend to survive to fight another day if your army gets fungalled to death and can't retreat, and Terran with medivacs > Terran without Ravens
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edit: removed pointless comment
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On August 14 2012 10:45 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:31 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha)
Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one? I don't even know where to begin. The part where you claim getting GM as Zerg is the easiest thing in the world, but you don't do it because it's pointless. The part where you say Zerg T3 comes faster than the other races. The part where you wax poetically over the past meta, even though the game evolved past those without even taking the Blizzard balance changes into consideration. I mentioned it 2 pages ago, I'm going to throw it here again just so its out there because it crushes pretty much any argument you've tried to make right now. Win rates have been better since patch 1.4.3 for Protoss than for Zerg. Add to that: Korean Terrans CURRENTLY have a positive winrate in TvZ. Tell me more about how easy it is to play Zerg in SC2 right now. Actually, if you subtract the outliners of Taeja and Gumiho, the win rate of TvZ for Korea DROPS to 47.5%, which is not in the positive. And so even with the best players in the world as Terran, w/o these two outliners, they still can't eclipse 50%.
And if you subtract CoCa and Leenock, Zergs win rates drop to 46.2%
Guess Zerg needs more buffs by the looks of things... Even with the likes of DRG carrying the race, they can barely stay above 45%
Either that or... maybe pulling out the best players doesn't actually prove anything except that Terran is STILL ahead...
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3815 Posts
^How can people actually be this deluded? My god
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The numbers speak for themselves bro.
Just making sure you're aware of them while you QQ about how broke Terran is.
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3815 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:32 Jermstuddog wrote:
The numbers speak for themselves bro.
Just making sure you're aware of them while you QQ about how broke Terran is.
The "numbers" only have a vague relationship to actual balance. Using them as an absolute measure is absolutely retarded. What, were you pro nerfing Zerg when TvZ winrates favoured Zerg a couple months ago?
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On August 14 2012 08:37 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 08:34 Dalavita wrote:
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a PvZ lookalike.
If that doesn't say enough to you about the sad state of the game, nothing will. The look at things from the Zerg perspective. Force field, Siege Tanks, lack of any decent ranged units, and the fact that Zerg spends the first 10 minutes catching up to the other two races as far as macro is concerned all makes attacking before the 11-12 minute mark suicide. Give Zerg early game options and a reason to do anything other than expand, expand, expand. Don't just sit there and talk about the bullshit that is T3 when it is literally Zergs ONLY viable offense against the most standard of standard play.
Zerg bias at its finest. Aren't you tired of constantly spreading the same untruths? “Zerg spends the first 10 minutes catching up to the other two races”—how can you even write something like that? Don't you know your own race? Does Zerg have to pressure Terran or Protoss to slow it down? Last time I checked it was the exact opposite... And please don't try to sell us this “Zerg is awful in midgame” theme. Last time I checked you could still play a Lings/Banes/Mutas midgame in ZvT. Don't know about Mutas currently in ZvP but there are lots of agressive midgame possibilities as well, Roach/Ling multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Baneling rain, etc.
I can definitely agree about Zerg being somewhat rigid and not being able to pressure the way the other races can in early game, but it hardly matters since you have a nigh unbreakable late game army and all the tools, kindly provided by Blizzard, to reach it.
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On August 14 2012 11:57 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:47 TheDwf wrote:On August 14 2012 10:40 Jazzman88 wrote:
The Queen buff was probably overkill, hence the proposed creep nerf and Raven buff, both of which I think will benefit the game. What's a unit that doesn't get used very often? Ravens. Why not? Fungal and Feedback roflstomp them. Ergo, buff the speed and acceleration so that players with good micro can start to avoid at least the AoE-based Fungal, if not Feedback (although, frankly, if you're building Ravens versus Protoss and you're NOT going 1-1-1, you're bonkers). Care to explain how Ravens being slightly faster will help against 9-range Fungal when you have to move forward to cast a 6-range spell? Would help splitting them up. So, not all the ravens get caught in fungals.
That argument worked so well in diffusing the ghost nerf...
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On August 14 2012 12:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:32 Jermstuddog wrote:
The numbers speak for themselves bro.
Just making sure you're aware of them while you QQ about how broke Terran is. The "numbers" only have a vague relationship to actual balance. Using them as an absolute measure is absolutely retarded. What, were you pro nerfing Zerg when TvZ winrates favoured Zerg a couple months ago?
When the win rates are on your side, use the win rates, when the meta game supports your side, use the meta game, when none are in your favor, bang your hands on the table and yell really loudly(Or post in every remotely balance related thread every waking moment of the day).
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EPT
