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On August 14 2012 04:09 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:01 xPabt wrote:On August 14 2012 03:57 Jermstuddog wrote:Taeja hasn't run into a Zerg on his level because there isn't a Zerg on his level in the game right now. Dude is WAY ahead of the meta and has the skills to do something with it.
He is single-handedly showing that Terran is not nearly as broke as the whiners would have us believe, in fact, he takes games in convincing fashion after playing from behind.
For a race that is supposed to be completely non-viable past the 15 minute mark, you have a lot to prove when the most successful Terran currently running around is KNOWN for getting behind in the early game and fighting his way back every single time.
When Fruitdealer won GSL, everybody knew Zerg needed serious buffs. Imagine buffing anything Taeja is making use of right now. The guy can't be beat and he is doing some of the most safe and solid styles I've seen out of anybody in the past few months.
TL,dr: Taeja != Fruitdealer Taeja is not ahead of the metagame. As you say in your post he is just better then everyone else right now. You end your post with taeja is the best player right now so the race doesn't need to be buffed? By that logic when DRG was the best player right before the queen buff that buff was 100% unnecessary. To some extent, I would agree. The queen buff was uncalled for. I can understand why they did it, be it was by no means necessary. I would realistically say it is a good change as it makes the game feel more stable and makes queens feel useful for what I believe was their intended purpose. But the timing on it is absolutely horrible. You don't make a change like that when the race is dominating, and at that time, Zerg was definitely dominating. That time though, seems to have passed. Zerg is more or less sharing the spotlight with Protoss right now. But the biggest superstar in SC2 right now has to be Taeja. Things are indeed quite different post-buff than they were back then. But again, not like the whiners would have us believe. Zerg win rates have gone DOWN since the patch change. History is showing 1.4.whatever-it-was to be a major Protoss patch, not a Zerg patch. Guess that observer build time change needs to be reverted too!
Fine, you can take the fucking Observer buff back. Just nerf Zerg and give us a way to deal with Infestor/BL and we'll be golden.
The "major Protoss patch" hasn't had anything to do with Observers. It's been won on the back of Immortal/Sentry.
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On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship.
You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting ..
Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk, not the map
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On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk.
You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever.
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On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
The key is not Worker count.
Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up.
The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible.
The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers.
It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever.
Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =). So stick to hellion banshee all-ins if that fits your personality better  . Keep trying, good luck
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On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =)
Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran.
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On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy"
You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well...
I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd..
play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran...
2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran.
So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha)
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On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:
[quote]
3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha)
Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg.
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On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:
[quote]
You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg.
The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses.
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On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:
[quote]
I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances.
And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses.
Actually, no, I'm not bitter. I just think the matchup went from being the most entertaining to a boring macro fest for the first 15 minutes. I don't even play Terran (except as offrace). It's sad to see TvZ turn into another PvZ. It's like Blizzard hates making players have to actually think/micro to get into the midgame.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On August 13 2012 20:43 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 12:12 Zrana wrote:
I really wish people saying zerg is easymode would just play zerg and see.
How is terran micro significantly harder than zerg micro?
Marine splitting? Meet baneling splitting
Target firing with tanks? Target firing with mutas
EMP? Fungal (and infestors all have a death wish)
Hellions versus zerglings? uhhh zerglings vs hellions
Multiple drops? Defending multiple drops (you lose some marines if you fuck up, zerg loses a mineral line or tech building)
Stutter stepping maybe?
1. Zerg has to do it too to keep up.
2. It's really not that hard
3. Zerg often surrounds/flanks and so there's no need anyway.
I'm not saying at all that terran is easy, of course their units are much less replaceable than zerg's, but zerg has to micro as well, often in many places across the map or controlling multiple armies for a flank and all the while macroing.
In a lot of games the zerg gets ahead on macro by capitalising on a terran mistake or not being punished for greed and so the rest of the game it seems like zerg is just a-moving to win but this is not an accurate representation of an even match.
edit: and also zerg macro is way more decision making than T macro. Zerg has to make a decision on whether to make drones or attacking units based on scouting. Terran just blindly follows a build order.
About 30-50 games of playing zerg in 3v3 just to get my inject timings working was enough for my zerg offrace to become good enough to the point where I could crush with people with the MMR I got to by playing terran. Especially other terrans, since I knew how the matchup worked. Even other protosses my MMR I could destroy just by making units. And this was back in the day of close position metalopolis when people were bitching about zerg being hard/weak. No knowledge of builds was ever necessary. Just keeping my injects up and making semi-intelligent decisions. Zerg has always been easier to play. Edit: Funny thing is I played a Stephano style of going ling and upgrade heavy and using just those to defend until I could get my tech out instead of gambling Idra style and praying I wouldn't get attacked while I droned like every other zerg did back then. I can't imagine how much easier it'll be now with superqueens.
It's easy if your brain works in a certain way. I'm pretty mechanically competent, but the feeling of droning or building units is just totally alien to me. I prefer the progression of Terran and Toss, i.e you build infrastructure, army and all incrementally rather than in bursts. This is an advantage if you're tech switching and the likes, but for those unfamiliar with the race the decision making can be pretty difficult
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On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:
[quote]
I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances.
And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses.
A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players.
I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad.
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On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting .. Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad.
You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range.
If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting ..
Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg.
Haha well i can't play on my current setup anyway after that accursed 1.5 patch. Will hopefully get set up again soon, definitely playing Zerg in HoTS if my fears are confirmed, they look ridiculous! (Albeit from a lot of staged videos).
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On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting ..
Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg.
I take it you're GM Zerg then? Proof?
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On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
You obviously did not explore the wonder of scouting ..
Teaja adapts by scouting the greedy playstyle of his opponents, its not blind risk. You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg.
This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant!
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On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant!
Why would you quote the same post twice? I understand you don't actually have to learn how to play SC2 as Zerg these days, so you should have plenty of time to learn how to use a message board.
On topic, I feel bad that the sentiment rings true with my view of the game. Naturally, strategies would become more figured out as the game progresses, but so many have been nerfed below usefulness directly by Blizz, or indirectly by maps. The reliability of "catching" Zerg off guard has been eliminated with the OL speed buff, since they're guaranteed half a base worth of information with every overlord, and then further nerfed by improving the defensive capabilities of the queen. At this point, given a 5 page overview of all the plausible strategies P and T can use, I really do feel that anybody could at least become masters with Zerg (foreign).
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On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:35 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
You don't understand how Terran works. Go back to suggesting 12 OC openings on Steppes of War or whatever. Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant!
It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned.
Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting.
And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one?
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I wouldn't say TvZ is imbalanced (though I feel Z is straight up easier to play but that's another story)
It's just a big macro coinflip... Ts are forced into 3CC which zerg either responds by going a
3base + macro hatch Ling/Bling Muta 200/200 push which counters the Terran 140-160 food 2/2 pushout
BUT loses to the terran 3/3 200/200 push out... OR they go for the 4 base broodlord turtle which beats the 3/3 200/200 push but loses to the 2/2 160 food push. It's just really dumb.
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On August 14 2012 08:04 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2012 07:15 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 07:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2012 07:01 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:43 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On August 14 2012 04:39 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 04:38 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
[quote]
Haha, i never suggested 12 OC anywhere .. however I can't force you to learn that OC's are pretty strong if used right =) Nobody disagrees with that. The problem is that you don't understand what "used right" actually means because you don't understand Terran. So it seems we have something in common (slight difference: i play zerg muahaha) Obviously. It's pretty much impossible to look at TvZ and see a good matchup unless you play Zerg. The major factor is by 98% skill. You are bitter because you had to take losses. A free late game and a-move does not take skill. This is why Terrans can off-race Zerg and do significantly better than their T in a mere fraction of the time including several in this very thread and DeMuslim. It's also why random ladder Zergs can beat Naniwa and other code S players. I must be one of the few that has terrible Zerg compared to my P and T, but I just don't feel comfortable with the drone/make army aspect of the race. Rest isn't too bad. You'll get used to it. The idea is really that you should be making Drones every time you don't absolutely need to make units. Once you get into that mindset, the game just becomes about learning all the possible strategies the other races can do to you (there actually aren't very many standard ones) and what their tells are. Then you just make shit when you scout them and a-click it. Most vZ pushes depend on the Zerg having late reinforcements/low unit count, so if you actually scout properly, you will be super prepared when the push arrives and defend it with no damage. Then you turn around and make 20+ Drones in one Inject, take a 4th base, get Hive + double Spire along with Infestors, and walk across the map, pausing to Fungal anything that is in range. If you do this, you will get to GM as Zerg. This statement is so awesome, I had to quote it again. You just summed up the fact that its basically pointless for Zerg to attack before T3 in such a way that it actually sounds like an advantage. Fucking brilliant! It's pointless because you don't have to. Your T3 comes so frigging early compared to everyone else's and in such soul-crushing numbers that you should always rush to it if you can. And, as it turns out, Blizzard has decided that the only time you shouldn't be able to rush to T3 is when you're getting 2 base all-inned. Which is incredibly lame, and even if matchups like PvZ are balanced (possible, although probably not in the lategame) they are boring and predictable because you know the matchup is the going to be an all-in or 3 base push from the Protoss, which will either win the game or send the game into inevitable BL vs MS coinflip (which has essentially nothing to do with skill). So exciting. And now TvZ, which was a kickass matchup and the standard against which all other matchups should be judged, has devolved into the same pointless turtley garbage even though Zerg players were already doing fine. I actually just can't believe Zergs think it's good that such a sweet, balanced matchup was made worse to appease people who can't deal with Hellion runbys. I mean, did nobody actually enjoy MMA vs Losira or MKP vs DRG? Was I the only one?
I think the only people who hated that time were extreme Zerg fanboys (of Idra most likely). For the longest time, before the bunker was nerfed for the 10th time, it was consistently voted the top matchup. Terrans would put on the early pressure, Zerg would defend, then there'd be some crazy dropping and drone timings, with the surprise Zerg aggression here and there. Truly a great time to watch TvZ.
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EPT
