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On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself.
You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins.
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On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins.
I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances.
And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead.
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On August 14 2012 02:10 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:07 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. You can't micro a fungal. The point is not to get caught in a clump. While your army's out on the map, you should be more cautious than that, i.e. splitting your marines before going back to your base to macro, splitting before moving on creep, splitting while on creep, splitting splitting splitting.
"Split split split! You have to micro harder while I a-move and press F."
Your logic is very biased.
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On August 14 2012 02:46 DemigodcelpH wrote:
"Split split split! You have to micro harder while I a-move and press F."
Your logic is very biased.
I seriously could not stop laughing at this. It brought a tear to my eye ;-)
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On August 14 2012 02:46 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:10 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 02:07 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. You can't micro a fungal. The point is not to get caught in a clump. While your army's out on the map, you should be more cautious than that, i.e. splitting your marines before going back to your base to macro, splitting before moving on creep, splitting while on creep, splitting splitting splitting. "Split split split! You have to micro harder while I a-move and press F." Your logic is very biased.
Anyone who thinks Zerg is as easy as A-moving has never lost a 75-supply lead because they didn't pick the perfect engagement. Zergs need perfect decision-making or they lose. Terrans need micro or they lose. Welcome to SC2.
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On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead.
All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds.
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On August 14 2012 02:49 Shantastic wrote:
Anyone who thinks Zerg is as easy as A-moving has never lost a 75-supply lead because they didn't pick the perfect engagement. Zergs need perfect decision-making or they lose. Terrans need micro or they lose. Welcome to SC2.
And then Zerg just re-maxes.... while Terran has to wait, wait, and wait some more while their units trickle out their production facilities.
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On August 14 2012 02:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:11 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? The answer to your question is simply queens. As it is to just about every opener in TvZ. Reactor hellion is easily deflected with low apm and low micro with a bunch of queens. The third should also be planted, so you should have enough creep to drop 1-2 spines if heavy reactor hellion (which you should always scout with how fast overlords are). This is from a 1450 Zerg and 1400 Terran. (Yes, only 1 week of Zerg practice and I was able to get a higher point value than 5 seasons as Terran). You should play protoss too and then we could just state you are "really good at Starcraft 2" and be done with "this race is easiest" arguments. After Taeja's crazy run through IPL, I have been looking into what he does differently that most terrans. His style of building up OCCs and M.U.L.E.s during the entire match up is very compelling. Some terrans would go mass CC after they max out on untis, but Taeja builds them up over time and keeps his over all SCV count low. This avoids the awkward transition to that "super max" army terran gets when they sack SCVs and gives him more M.U.L.E.s. Plus, he can use PFs to secure expansions and mules to mine at the most exposed ones. A lot of people are saying it is all micro that makes Taeja so good. Beyond the micro, his decision making and style is more fluid that most terran builds. Also, he goes back to the old terran standby, abuse the shit out of the M.U.L.E.
A bit off topic, but where can I watch these Taeja games?
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On August 14 2012 02:54 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:21 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:11 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? The answer to your question is simply queens. As it is to just about every opener in TvZ. Reactor hellion is easily deflected with low apm and low micro with a bunch of queens. The third should also be planted, so you should have enough creep to drop 1-2 spines if heavy reactor hellion (which you should always scout with how fast overlords are). This is from a 1450 Zerg and 1400 Terran. (Yes, only 1 week of Zerg practice and I was able to get a higher point value than 5 seasons as Terran). You should play protoss too and then we could just state you are "really good at Starcraft 2" and be done with "this race is easiest" arguments. After Taeja's crazy run through IPL, I have been looking into what he does differently that most terrans. His style of building up OCCs and M.U.L.E.s during the entire match up is very compelling. Some terrans would go mass CC after they max out on untis, but Taeja builds them up over time and keeps his over all SCV count low. This avoids the awkward transition to that "super max" army terran gets when they sack SCVs and gives him more M.U.L.E.s. Plus, he can use PFs to secure expansions and mules to mine at the most exposed ones. A lot of people are saying it is all micro that makes Taeja so good. Beyond the micro, his decision making and style is more fluid that most terran builds. Also, he goes back to the old terran standby, abuse the shit out of the M.U.L.E. A bit off topic, but where can I watch these Taeja games?
It was the IPL finals, Liquid vs IM, where Taeja went for a 7 game winning streak.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IPL_Team_Arena_Challenge/3
I am at work and can't see if the VODs are up yet, but Taeja does some amazing stuff build wise, including going for a fast 5 ccs, all mules all the time and some amazing drops. The most important part is how he delays his opponents from attacking so he can rework his army to deal with theirs and his use of mass CCs and PFs to secure 5th and 6th bases.
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On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds.
Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship.
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On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship.
I am sure if you spent the time, you could find replays of how he adjusts his play to deal with those maps. On Ohana he goes proxy 2 rax into expand, all while denying creep spread.
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On August 14 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. I am sure if you spent the time, you could find replays of how he adjusts his play to deal with those maps. On Ohana he goes proxy 2 rax into expand, all while denying creep spread.
That's what every Terran does on Ohana. It doesn't mean it's some super amazing build. It means Taeja is significantly better than every Zerg he's played so far. Seriously, even his run at IPL TAC was against Losira and Nestea, neither of whom played at all well, and the former of whom actually should have won but threw the game away. I mean, I might as well say Fruitdealer was evidence that post-release Zerg was the strongest race. Taeja abuses a very knife-edge style, and he will have to reinvent himself after being studied these next few months. I highly doubt he'd have the same success against a performing Symbol/DRG anyway.
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On August 14 2012 03:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 02:54 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 14 2012 02:21 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:11 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. The key is not Worker count. Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up. The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible. The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers. It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? The answer to your question is simply queens. As it is to just about every opener in TvZ. Reactor hellion is easily deflected with low apm and low micro with a bunch of queens. The third should also be planted, so you should have enough creep to drop 1-2 spines if heavy reactor hellion (which you should always scout with how fast overlords are). This is from a 1450 Zerg and 1400 Terran. (Yes, only 1 week of Zerg practice and I was able to get a higher point value than 5 seasons as Terran). You should play protoss too and then we could just state you are "really good at Starcraft 2" and be done with "this race is easiest" arguments. After Taeja's crazy run through IPL, I have been looking into what he does differently that most terrans. His style of building up OCCs and M.U.L.E.s during the entire match up is very compelling. Some terrans would go mass CC after they max out on untis, but Taeja builds them up over time and keeps his over all SCV count low. This avoids the awkward transition to that "super max" army terran gets when they sack SCVs and gives him more M.U.L.E.s. Plus, he can use PFs to secure expansions and mules to mine at the most exposed ones. A lot of people are saying it is all micro that makes Taeja so good. Beyond the micro, his decision making and style is more fluid that most terran builds. Also, he goes back to the old terran standby, abuse the shit out of the M.U.L.E. A bit off topic, but where can I watch these Taeja games? It was the IPL finals, Liquid vs IM, where Taeja went for a 7 game winning streak. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IPL_Team_Arena_Challenge/3I am at work and can't see if the VODs are up yet, but Taeja does some amazing stuff build wise, including going for a fast 5 ccs, all mules all the time and some amazing drops. The most important part is how he delays his opponents from attacking so he can rework his army to deal with theirs and his use of mass CCs and PFs to secure 5th and 6th bases.
Thank you very much.
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Just a warning, I have to chop up this post, respond to each incorrect statement and I'm not going to bother with your other content-less posts.
On August 14 2012 02:32 PauseBreak wrote:
Zerg's wouldn't have had issues with Hellions if they placed spines or hell, instead of SDDD every round of larvae, and make some units. I hear a surround of Lings on Hellions is pretty good?
Last time I checked, 3rd's that have rocks piss off Zerg. God-for-effn-bid Zerg has to make units other than drones
If you put rocks at the third, Zerg have to all-in. You must have been checking early 2011 or maybe late 2010 if this is somehow appearing to be new to you. You do not understand Zerg at all just based on your statement here already.
Last I checked, SDDD is allowed for up to 8 mins uncontested.
As already stated, last you checked must've been a year or more ago. There's a ton of early pressure builds that attack before 8 minutes in all match-ups.
Last I checked, Zerg Bane/Ling/Roach all-in's every TvZ. And IF that fails they skip the mid game and go straight into the late game.
I'm skipping all the "last I checked" puns I can make and going straight to the point from now on. They don't roach/bane/ling all-in every TvZ because its easy to scout it, and its easy to block it. A smart Zerg will never try this sort of all-in against a T with rax in front as a wall, 3 or more bunkers with supply depot wall and scv repair, or any T that opens gas before CC.
Because last I checked, Zergs can take their 3rd EZPZ lemon-squeezie and not have to worry about harassment (thanks Blizzard) so they have banked enough to go straight into Winfestors and then sit back and defend any aggression until BL/Corruptors.
Completely wrong. Zerg do have to be mindful about third harassment until we get enough of an economy we can be aggressive and not be completely all-in. Its painfully obvious you have never heard the fact that "Zerg must choose between workers or attacking units".
Ofc, that was the last time I checked. But I guess lately, Zerg's have been trying Ultra's more because they know Terran cannot just tech switch from Marines into Marauders.
And its not like Zerg has to worry about Ghosts anymore since they are only made in PvT, maybe.
OL speed is great too. Now Zerg can see every Terran opening! You know, like gas. That's a huge tell tale sign of what's going on. But of course, Terran being sneaky could risk/force Zerg to make Lings!
Terrans just change up their composition to be a big more maurader-heavy. This is certainly possible and we see it done constantly. This also makes me think you don't understand Terran's versatility either.
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On August 14 2012 03:11 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
The key is not Worker count.
Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up.
The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible.
The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers.
It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third. And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. I am sure if you spent the time, you could find replays of how he adjusts his play to deal with those maps. On Ohana he goes proxy 2 rax into expand, all while denying creep spread. That's what every Terran does on Ohana. It doesn't mean it's some super amazing build. It means Taeja is significantly better than every Zerg he's played so far. Seriously, even his run at IPL TAC was against Losira and Nestea, neither of whom played at all well, and the former of whom actually should have won but threw the game away. I mean, I might as well say Fruitdealer was evidence that post-release Zerg was the strongest race. Taeja abuses a very knife-edge style, and he will have to reinvent himself after being studied these next few months. I highly doubt he'd have the same success against a performing Symbol/DRG anyway.
The problem with citing fruitdealer is he got away with 1 major tournament win in a new game. His style was already being scoffed at by other top pros who rightfully predicted he would not last.
Taeja is destroying basically every tournament he touches by doing basically the same thing everybody else is doing... Just better.
Taeja hasn't run into a Zerg on his level because there isn't a Zerg on his level in the game right now. Dude is WAY ahead of the meta and has the skills to do something with it.
He is single-handedly showing that Terran is not nearly as broke as the whiners would have us believe, in fact, he takes games in convincing fashion after playing from behind.
For a race that is supposed to be completely non-viable past the 15 minute mark, you have a lot to prove when the most successful Terran currently running around is KNOWN for getting behind in the early game and fighting his way back every single time.
When Fruitdealer won GSL, everybody knew Zerg needed serious buffs. Imagine buffing anything Taeja is making use of right now. The guy can't be beat and he is doing some of the most safe and solid styles I've seen out of anybody in the past few months.
TL,dr: Taeja != Fruitdealer
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On August 14 2012 03:57 Jermstuddog wrote:Taeja hasn't run into a Zerg on his level because there isn't a Zerg on his level in the game right now. Dude is WAY ahead of the meta and has the skills to do something with it.
He is single-handedly showing that Terran is not nearly as broke as the whiners would have us believe, in fact, he takes games in convincing fashion after playing from behind.
For a race that is supposed to be completely non-viable past the 15 minute mark, you have a lot to prove when the most successful Terran currently running around is KNOWN for getting behind in the early game and fighting his way back every single time.
When Fruitdealer won GSL, everybody knew Zerg needed serious buffs. Imagine buffing anything Taeja is making use of right now. The guy can't be beat and he is doing some of the most safe and solid styles I've seen out of anybody in the past few months.
TL,dr: Taeja != Fruitdealer
Taeja is not ahead of the metagame. As you say in your post he is just better then everyone else right now.
You end your post with taeja is the best player right now so the race doesn't need to be buffed?
By that logic when DRG was the best player right before the queen buff that buff was 100% unnecessary.
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On August 14 2012 03:57 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 03:11 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 03:06 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 02:49 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2012 02:40 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 02:38 blade55555 wrote:On August 14 2012 02:31 Dalavita wrote:On August 14 2012 01:58 ETisME wrote:On August 14 2012 01:46 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
And you think Terran being able to actually stop the Zerg from playing retardedly greedy was a bad thing? zerg staying ahead in one base is not being "retardedly greedy" You seem to be the kind that says going hatch first is "retardedly greedy" as well... I would love to hear what is your opinion on Terran going reactor hellion into quick 3 CCs and how zerg should respond to it when hellions are delaying the 3rd.. play from behind after the hellions are cleared by roaches and grab the third later than the terran... 2 bases all in? 3 bases before you make anything but four lings is the definition of greed. The fact that zerg can get away with it and is considered standard play speaks volume of the game and the race in and of itself. You realize terrans have been greedy as can be for a long time to right? 3CC builds are greedy (early) and most terrans do that yet I don't see you complaining about it. Terrans can get away with it to if they know how to defend 2 base all ins. I don't complain about 3CC because it's not safe play, and the only reason terrans do it is because they need to if they want to keep up with the retarded 3 hatch opening that spams drones and is completely safe because of super queens and rush distances. And you should be damn sure I'd complain if 3CC was standard play while being safe. The game is in a shit state because zerg can greed like a mofo and terrans have to match them on the greed aspect. The earlygame of all matchups is pretty much dead. All three match ups are less risky and is requires more planning than just "building units" to do crippling damage any of the races. This is pretty much what we when we asked for larger maps. If you want to see how to take it to a zerg in the early game as terran, watch the most recent Day 9 daily where is reviews Taeja's games. He highlights how Taeja controls the pace of the game from start to finish and some crazy, awesomely agressive builds. Taeja's mass OC style doesn't really work on maps that aren't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship. I am sure if you spent the time, you could find replays of how he adjusts his play to deal with those maps. On Ohana he goes proxy 2 rax into expand, all while denying creep spread. That's what every Terran does on Ohana. It doesn't mean it's some super amazing build. It means Taeja is significantly better than every Zerg he's played so far. Seriously, even his run at IPL TAC was against Losira and Nestea, neither of whom played at all well, and the former of whom actually should have won but threw the game away. I mean, I might as well say Fruitdealer was evidence that post-release Zerg was the strongest race. Taeja abuses a very knife-edge style, and he will have to reinvent himself after being studied these next few months. I highly doubt he'd have the same success against a performing Symbol/DRG anyway. The problem with citing fruitdealer is he got away with 1 major tournament win in a new game. His style was already being scoffed at by other top pros who rightfully predicted he would not last. Taeja is destroying basically every tournament he touches by doing basically the same thing everybody else is doing... Just better. Taeja hasn't run into a Zerg on his level because there isn't a Zerg on his level in the game right now. Dude is WAY ahead of the meta and has the skills to do something with it. He is single-handedly showing that Terran is not nearly as broke as the whiners would have us believe, in fact, he takes games in convincing fashion after playing from behind. For a race that is supposed to be completely non-viable past the 15 minute mark, you have a lot to prove when the most successful Terran currently running around is KNOWN for getting behind in the early game and fighting his way back every single time. When Fruitdealer won GSL, everybody knew Zerg needed serious buffs. Imagine buffing anything Taeja is making use of right now. The guy can't be beat and he is doing some of the most safe and solid styles I've seen out of anybody in the past few months. TL,dr: Taeja != Fruitdealer
Everyone knows Zergs need nerfs right now. Lol.
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On August 14 2012 04:01 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 03:57 Jermstuddog wrote:Taeja hasn't run into a Zerg on his level because there isn't a Zerg on his level in the game right now. Dude is WAY ahead of the meta and has the skills to do something with it.
He is single-handedly showing that Terran is not nearly as broke as the whiners would have us believe, in fact, he takes games in convincing fashion after playing from behind.
For a race that is supposed to be completely non-viable past the 15 minute mark, you have a lot to prove when the most successful Terran currently running around is KNOWN for getting behind in the early game and fighting his way back every single time.
When Fruitdealer won GSL, everybody knew Zerg needed serious buffs. Imagine buffing anything Taeja is making use of right now. The guy can't be beat and he is doing some of the most safe and solid styles I've seen out of anybody in the past few months.
TL,dr: Taeja != Fruitdealer Taeja is not ahead of the metagame. As you say in your post he is just better then everyone else right now. You end your post with taeja is the best player right now so the race doesn't need to be buffed? By that logic when DRG was the best player right before the queen buff that buff was 100% unnecessary.
To some extent, I would agree. The queen buff was uncalled for. I can understand why they did it, be it was by no means necessary.
I would realistically say it is a good change as it makes the game feel more stable and makes queens feel useful for what I believe was their intended purpose. But the timing on it is absolutely horrible. You don't make a change like that when the race is dominating, and at that time, Zerg was definitely dominating.
That time though, seems to have passed. Zerg is more or less sharing the spotlight with Protoss right now. But the biggest superstar in SC2 right now has to be Taeja.
Things are indeed quite different post-buff than they were back then. But again, not like the whiners would have us believe. Zerg win rates have gone DOWN since the patch change. History is showing 1.4.whatever-it-was to be a major Protoss patch, not a Zerg patch.
Guess that observer build time change needs to be reverted too!
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On August 14 2012 01:06 xPabt wrote:
I prefrered 2 base pressure being more viable in TvZ but 3OC's being the standard is ok I geuss.
I think the problem with the game is that it takes way too long for Protoss and Terran to tranistion into Raven/BC and Carriers. For Zerg playing ling infestor the ling upgrades affect the hive units and the infestation pit leads to the hive to get the hive units.
Build times: BL = 40 + 34 + (flying around as corruptor time), Ultra =55, Carrier = 120, Battle cruiser = 90.
Assuming Toss and Terran are stronger during the midgame then it is OK that zerg has the easier lategame units to build however it's too hard for Toss and Terran to get them.
Terran and Toss have to invest in at least 4-5 starport/stargates AND get a separate upgrade path started AND have long build times for BC/Carrier or have even more upgrades + long energy collection on Ravens. Zerg gets to build the tech structure and then all hatcheries are able to build them.
Broodlords are pretty good with out upgrades when the first come out but Carriers, BCs and ravens are basically useless. The units that need to invest in upgrades to be use-full and add on many production facilities should not be the units with a much longer build time. Making Battlecruisers and carriers build time reduced and making the raven energy upgrade start them with more energy will make Protoss and Terran more able to Transition from a midgame army into an endgame army easier but wouldn't fuck with early and midgame balance because of the needed upgrades and production facilities.
Also I think removing the carrier for the Tempest is the dumbest thing ever. 22 range with less dps then a marine is a really stupid unit and without archon toilets Protoss might need the carrier or something similar the be able to fight vs BL corruptor.
Quoting this because it got buried by people QQing at eachother.
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On August 13 2012 21:26 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
A terran on 2 bases with 2 OC's is actually ahead (mule income). You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark. Your argument is bad. I went and pulled up a random ZvT game just to see and yeah, Zerg has about 45 drones at 7:30, but Terran has about 35 workers +2-3 MULE's. Looking at the income tab, Zerg is sitting at 1300/448, and Terran is at 1440/240. QQ all you want, but Zerg takes so long to actually get a worker advantage, and even longer to turn that worker advantage into an income advantage, your argument is invalid. Actually, just letting the replay go 2 min further to 9:30, Terran is up to 54 workers and Zerg is at 55. 1800/448 income for Terran 1320/432 for Zerg In this particular game, Zerg (me) has chosen to make 7 combat units and build up his infrastructure (12 buildings), so I guess I could have been in the 60s, but then I also risk dying to 10 marines. TL,DR: Early game income is not a good argument if you want to claim Zerg imba.
Your reading is terrible. Let me quote myself again and bold the important part:
On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:
check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark.
To which you answer...
On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
I went and pulled up a random ZvT game just to see and yeah, Zerg has about 45 drones at 7:30, but Terran has about 35 workers +2-3 MULE's.
... which is stupid because:
1. It's obviously another opening.
2. I know perfectly well than you can have more than 29 SCVs @ the 7'30 mark, thank you. You can have ~40 with CC first.
3. I was talking about the old 2-bases (when triple OC was not yet the norm) vs 2-bases play, answering to someone (wasn't it you actually?) who was incorrectly stating that Terran's income was higher in 2-bases vs 2-bases while he didn't take into account the fact that MULEs only acted as a compensation for a long time.
On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
TL,DR: Early game income is not a good argument if you want to claim Zerg imba.
I never said that Zergs had any imba early game economic advantage. I said that in a 2-bases vs 2-bases situation, MULEs do not mechanically give the Terran player a stronger income. Nice strawman though.
On August 13 2012 16:11 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
QQ all you want, but Zerg takes so long to actually get a worker advantage
Sorry but this is simply hilarious. It takes only the 2 first injects for the Zerg player to get ahead in the worker count. How terribly biased must you be not to see this simple fact?
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EPT
