Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 64

On August 14 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I find this post incredibly ironic. You tell everyone to practice their control, but scoff at any suggestion that would make the Infestor require more than a pulse to use efficiently. Yeah, a projectile would allow Stalkers to dodge Fungal, but that's still making them Blink backward, it's something that you can very easily fuck up, and it still throws a wrench into individual Stalker micro (since you're going to have a bunch of Stalkers with Blink on CD anyway). I guess you've become accustomed to getting an entire Protoss Stalker force for free if you make a few Infestors and land a Fungal or two. Because you know, automatically killing an expensive group of Stalkers with some Lings and a few Infestors is totally fair, especially when the Protoss lacks the ability to retreat at all, even with some of his units.

Furthermore, you don't need Infestors to beat Blink Stalkers. All Blink Stalker all-ins hit before Infestors, and all of them can be defended with Roach Ling. Further, it's not like Infestors would be useless against Stalkers in the later phases of the game. It's just that Stalkers wouldn't be useless against Infestors.

And no, your units are not cost-inefficient. The Roach and Ling are EXTREMELY cost-efficient in ZvP. As is the Infestor. As is the BroodLord. The only thing that isn't cost efficient is the Hydra.

On August 13 2012 23:17 zmansman17 wrote:


Note Zerg doesn't gamble when they mass expand. We know what is coming and you can prepare accordingly. And as it stands, very few timings are even potent enough to do damage versus standard play in either ZvT or ZvP. And with some basic scouting, those timings can be discovered and placated.

Conversely, if I'm playing Terran and I try to drop a 3rd OC in TvZ, I am taking a big risk and I need to sacrifice SCVs to scout the Zerg, or scan to ensure I am not being all-inned. A 4th OC is out of the question. Even against a Zerg who you know dropped a 4th hatch, you cannot safely drop a 4th OC. My point is that Zerg can safely macro and expand within reason with relative impunity, whereas Protoss and Terran cannot do so w/o taking a risk, even if that risk is calculated *you can still die.

On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:


I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best.

I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy.

I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game.

In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options.

On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:



Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so.

The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs.

On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:


Fungal + Blings

how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what?

On August 14 2012 01:19 Jono7272 wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues

Soon this will go from all red and green to all blue with this new raven speed!

On August 14 2012 00:57 Shantastic wrote:


LOL, if you commit an army to an attack your opponent is prepared for, you will lose that army. Yes, that is fair. Blink may be easy to fuck up, but it still hinges the Zerg's success on the Protoss making a mistake. Yes, you can hold off a 2base Blink stalker all-in with 3base Roach-Ling, but a 3base attack with Blink, Immortals, and sentries? Infestors are necessary, and Fungals work exactly as intended in ZvP.

I don't understand your definition of cost-efficient. Infestors are cost-efficient, because they allow Zerg to fight on equal bases. If Roach-Ling were cost-efficient, you would be able to use it 2base vs 2base. Zergs don't survive losing a third to a 2base all-in, unless they have PERFECT unit retention OR Infestors. Roach-Ling is NOT cost-efficient...

On August 14 2012 00:15 Iron_ wrote:
1) Fungal does not effect air units.
Result: Medivacs stop getting fungaled and they can be massed easier allowing the Terran to possibly heal through fungals. Also, if you see a pack coming, you can load up and run. Also, air units being "stuck in place" is really weird and doesn't make common sense.

2) Infestor loses the energy upgrade.
Result: Infestors can not insta cast fungal (same exact deal as with the old templar). This would allow timings in mid game to be more effective.

3) Fungal slows units instead of locking them in place, and thus *does not cancel commands*.
Result: Some micro is still allowed, and banelings will kill 10 marines instead of 20 at a time. The biggest thing here though, is that it would allow the Terran to issue commands. So it would be kind of like concussive where your units are vulnerable but can still be told what to do.

4) Fungal gets a small nerf in damage or area, or both.
Result: More fungals are needed to kill packs of units, so the zerg would need to build more infestors.

5) Fungal gets an animation and/or projectile.
Result: Fungal can be somewhat avoided and take more amp to cast.

zmansman17 wrote:
Taeja's strategies are not what make him a good player. They are only a small part of what make him a great player. Taeja's execution, skill, APM, decision-making, cerebral play are what him one of the World's best Terrans.

On August 13 2012 22:22 Jermstuddog wrote:


Because 4 queens can't protect the entire Zerg base once Terran starts getting a decent amount of units out, so Zerg has to make units themselves. Unlike the other two races, Zerg has to pick between drones and combat units.

That being said, It's still usually more in the range of 8-10, but this is also the time where Zerg builds most of their infrastructure. Evo chambers, extractors, hatcheries, spire, infestation pit, bling nest all cost drones. So you see Zerg rush up to the mid 40s and stay there because... you know... they like to have the ability to fight back when pressure comes.

PS: It's actually 4 drones lost. And I added links to the post since going to the site and looking at the first available ZvT is too hard.

On August 14 2012 01:32 sCCrooked wrote:


I'm sorry but based on these suggestions (and I've seen them all more than once) I have to assume that those who agree with these do not understand the game beyond perhaps a low master-league level (most likely below that into mineral leagues).

1) Fungal is a huge part of air defense right now. Zerg simply can't rely on anything else to stop medivacs, warp prisms, or muta balls. Arguably later-game voids too. If you took that away, Zerg would literally need a very serious and probably borderline-overpowered buff to some other units or they would simply need a whole new unit (scourge maybe?)

2) Again, an awful idea because most of Zerg's timings right now that allow us to survive any of T or P's late-midgame or lategame timings is that energy upgrade allowing us to instantly have one available upon spawning. If you changed this, the builds of zerg would have a huge timing window (not small, HUGE) where you could attack before fungals and micro away the pursuing army.

3) Another bad idea because while I wish every race was forced to have a lot of micro (that's what made BW so great), right now that is not the case. Unless there's some way to make roaches, lings and banes be much more cost-effective than they are now (in other words the potential to get lots of kills with less units/more micro) this is completely game-breaking.

4) Fungal already got a pretty big nerf. As it is right now, Zerg are forced to spend insane gas into infestors just to have enough to stop pushes well and keep their economies safe. Suggesting that Zerg these days need to be forced into making more than 12-14 infestors would require a complete build change that would allow 8-10 gasses to be safely taken quickly.

5) Fungal can already be avoided because its just a patch of ground. Good blink micro can open a hole where a fungal might hit. Splitting an army forces many fungals instead of just 1-2 and wastes a ton of energy. This is ridiculous and redundant.



Although I don't disagree with this statement, its still important to note his unique style of using lots of macro OCs to instantly-saturate a new expo with tons of built-up M.U.L.Es which gives him an insane economy and thusly an ability to manage a ridiculous amount of rax (and thus much larger armies that replenish with almost Zerg-like speed). It also allows him to take bases much easier since the OCs are already completed and can simply move to a new expo when its time.

This particular style has been noted by every pro out there and has proven extremely effective. Its the player, not the build I know, but the same can be said for every other popularized-build that has come from a pro (since us players might use it, but certainly not nearly as well as its pro creator).

tl;dr: FFS Blizzard, give us micro back. Terran can do insanely effective micro with marines and so can P with blink-stalkers. I want to be able to get some "OMFGSOGOOD" reactions in my games with some crazy micro'd units too that kill waaaaay more than a standard "1a" move would give me. Yes, I'm an old BW junkie at heart.

On August 13 2012 18:19 TheDwf wrote:

You're aware that until the Terran player catches up the Zerg's worker count, MULEs only compensate for Zerg's ability to produce drones faster? Sure 45 SCVs + 2 MULEs > 45 drones, but check any old replay featuring a Reactor Hellion expand against a standard 2-bases Zerg play, Terran had 28-29 SCVs by the time Zerg reached ~45 drones @ the 7'30 mark.

On August 14 2012 01:42 ETisME wrote:

The key is not Worker count.

Terran is fine with zerg staying 2 bases as long as terran itself gets 2 bases up.
The reactor hellions hellions were merely to contain the creep and delay the third for as long as possible.

The longer the zerg stays on equal bases, the better off the terran is without even needing to kill any workers.

It's similar to PvZ where P has to turtle well and try to get a fast third, while zerg either grabs a 4th in respond or go heavy roach ling to kill off that third.

On August 14 2012 01:40 lorestarcraft wrote:


While I don't disagree with most of your post, the idea that Zerg have to choose between drones and combat units while the other races do not is baffling. Last I knew, hatchery had more than 1 larva, and queens could add even more larva! So you can effectively make drones and units at the same time! What a concept....

If a terran is splitting their bio properly there is NO way that you can cost efficiently trade with banelings. There just is no way. I don't see how splitting banes is even a factor in this case. Just don't 1A and avoid armored targets. I see more people wasting banes on thors and tanks because they aren't microing at all.

Secondly, if you would do the proper thing and put the infestors on a separate hotkey and in the back of the army you wouldn't have to worry about suiciding them. It literally pains me to see infestors waddling next to tanks because zergs are once again 1Aing their entire army. I can't even respond to EMP vs fungal because .......one of them limits micro and the other doesn't.

Thirdly, why would you be attacking hellions off of creep? Also, its kind of weird that hellions counter zerglings but you have to work them like toy cars so that the zerglings don't kill them.

Finally, losing mutas because you weren't watching them isn't a small mistake. Losing to drops when you can make spore crawlers (something zerg players are never doing unless there are banshees) is a big mistake. I can't even think of an all-in that works against zerg. I'm not saying zerg is imba, but terran can be punished WAY harder for little stuff than vice-versa.

I'm sorry, but you're just clueless. In all of those situations, Zerg can recover far more easily than Terran or Protoss can. Why? Because you can stockpile Larvae and mass-produce units. We see this all the time in games nowadays. Zerg will have enemies at their front door and not have many units, but due to having 3+ bases and 4+ Hatcheries, they can just continually mass-produce units and overwhelm the opponent. Your point of Orbital abilities is off as well. Scans take away resources from MULE's, which is much-needed, due to the fact that Protoss and Zerg can create workers at a significantly faster rate. Planetaries do the same thing; they take away the option for both Scans and MULE's. This is the same for Supply calldowns (which, if you ever see anyone using it for anything except some weird timing, is the sign of a Terran player that needs to work on his macro).

Terran is the most unforgiving race. Micro? All unit compositions rely on both positioning and in-battle micro far more than the other two races. Any composition with Tanks? Mess up for a half a second and get caught with Tanks unsieged and you're done. Bio? Constant splitting or else it gets demolished by any kind of AoE. Mech? Slowest composition in the game, and still has Tanks in it. In contrast, Banelings, Zerglings, Roaches, Mutalisks, and Infestors are all very fast units. Furthermore, Fungal is fire-and-forget because it is cheap, on a fast unit that can Burrow, and immobolizes its targets. Furthermore, Terran macro is by far the least forgiving. Sure, MULE's are the easiest macro mechanic out of the three (Injects being the hardest), but Protoss can instantly Warp in upwards of 20 units in the late game, Zerg can make nearly an unlimited amount due to stockpiling Larvae, but Terran have to be perfect with their macro cycles or they will lose. You simply cannot remax an army with Terran half as quickly as a Protoss or Zerg can. It doesn't matter if you have money if your army simply can't mass up quickly enough.

On August 14 2012 01:28 Shiori wrote:
False. You're cost-efficient with Roach/Ling. The reason you need 3 bases is a production requirement, not a cost requirement.

Besides, you'd still kill all the Sentries with the Fungal and force the Stalkers to Blink back, which means the Immortals/Sentries would get surrounded and killed by Zerglings. then you're up against Stalkers, which is simple to kill. Yeah, it would require smart play from the Zerg, but that's a good thing. Better than mindlessly f-clicking shit.

On August 14 2012 01:53 Shantastic wrote:

You clearly don't play Zerg if you think this. If I needed 3 bases as a production requirement, 2-base all-ins that snipe the third wouldn't be successful, since the Zerg has a macro hatch. I can efficiently saturate 2 bases in 6 minutes, fully saturate them in 6:30. If I could hold a 2-base all-in with a 2-base economy, Blink 7gates wouldn't be ABLE to snipe the third, and even if they did, I'd have a macro hatch in my main by then, so I wouldn't be behind. But anyone who's seen or played ZvP at even Platinum level knows that if you lose your third to a 2-base all-in, and you don't have Infestors, you've probably lost the game, barring a SERIOUS mistake from the Protoss.

Besides, you'd still kill all the Sentries with the Fungal and force the Stalkers to Blink back, which means the Immortals/Sentries would get surrounded and killed by Zerglings. then you're up against Stalkers, which is simple to kill. Yeah, it would require smart play from the Zerg, but that's a good thing. Better than mindlessly f-clicking shit.

That last sentence just made me laugh.