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On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs.
There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks.
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3815 Posts
On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks.
Wake me when Overlords take 65 seconds to build and halt all production any time they move.
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On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks.
Yes and the moment you actually see the eggs hatch, it's too late to ramp up your production and get adequate defenses.
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On August 14 2012 23:08 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks. Yes and the moment you actually see the eggs hatch, it's too late to ramp up your production and get adequate defenses.
Which is exactly why you have bunkers, the fastest building static defense designed to make a small terran army much stronger and recoverable after the danger is past.
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On August 14 2012 23:26 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 23:08 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks. Yes and the moment you actually see the eggs hatch, it's too late to ramp up your production and get adequate defenses. Which is exactly why you have bunkers, the fastest building static defense designed to make a small terran army much stronger and recoverable after the danger is past.
The fastest building static defense is the missle turret followed by the spore. Bunker build time equals photon cannon build time and bunkers don't increase the damage output. Plus they are sitting ducks for bane. Really.. Zerg can simply bust through a greedy terran and bunkers won't prevent that.
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Did anyone actually notice that at the armory notes it says you can make the odin? look closely at 7 minute mark when he hovers over the armory icon and stop it to read it, actually that can explain why he didnt build a single thor while going mech
EDIT: wrong place 
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On August 14 2012 13:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
this thread is becoming ridiculous. I am very sure its *not* blizzard who fails understanding the Terran race ^^.
A lot of QQ in this thread points to the fact, that low-level-terrans are not used to macro play and fail in scouting. Now they are crying that their favored gimmick 'agressive' build does not work anymore .. imba imba.
I never found it entertaining watching a TvZ, when 80% of the games were decided at the 7 minute mark and terrans basically did not need to scout or adapt in any way.
Yes, I'm sure that it's actually the Terrans who do not understand the game. The most innovative race that flushed out their strategies much earlier than the other two races, and was nerfed as a result. Now, we are left with a race that has no real new strategies, has been nerfed to other races' buffs, and meanwhile, the other races learned to play their races.
It is these three factors that has led us to the problems in TvZ that we see today.
It appears to me that Zergs are quick to mention "QQ" or "whining", instead of addressing the substantive issues about the current state of TvZ. The fact is, Zerg is the easiest and most forgiving race to play and I say that from experience. Zerg has the best beginning, mid and late game scouting. All units are produced from central infrastructure and tech buildings need only be built once to ensure the use of that tech.
11/11 rax and other early strategies have been completely neutered to the extent that Zerg need not even prepare or fear them; they can be blindly defended. And that idea of "blind defense" sadly has become generalized to much of the early to mid game in both ZvT and ZvP. What's the answer if Terran goes reactor hellion? What's the answer if Terran goes early banshee? What's the answer if Terran goes reaper harass? What's the answer if Terran goes some 2 rax variant?
The answer is always the same and there is never a question of whether or not to produce more queens. It's a fucking given. And it is precisely this sort of delineation that makes an RTS flawed. There should always be a tension between choices, especially as it relates to resource allocation. There should not be just 1 obvious, easy-to-execute, one size fits all option. But there is for Zerg, which is a design problem and makes Zerg so much easier than either Protoss or Terran at all levels.
And as someone who plays Zerg at rank 1 master and Terran at rank 3 master, I know these problems firsthand from both sides.
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So this thread went from talking about the actual changes and you know, the patch to another balance whining thread.
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On August 14 2012 19:41 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 18:49 Solarist wrote:On August 14 2012 18:36 ReaperCo wrote:On August 14 2012 15:58 skurj wrote:
Why don't more Terrans use ghosts to counter infestors and ravens to counter Brood Lords? There was a game in the GSL where a terran used a handful of Ravens in late late game to demolish a flock of BLs and march to a win. As a plus, Ravens help you counter creep spread - without nerfing Zerg! Could a better player comment?
Blizzard is too quick with the balance changes, IMO. Let the meta-game evolve. Just because win rates aren't 50% across all matchups at one point in time doesn't mean the game isn't balanced. Because terrans suck dick and want to make marines late game and they win 50% of the time using that. If they trained ravens transition they prob would be unbeatable. You just went full retard. Never go full retard PS: Hope to god you're being sarcastic Of course he is? Gotta use something to deal with the inanity in this thread. I mean, just look at the post he quoted. "Make an army out of nothing but single purpose counters. This is surely very threatening, I mean Ghosts used to be good once upon a time and stuff. SFFFFFFFF, see? This only deals with everything. Man, I am reactive." And to whoever used the GomTvT example a page or two ago, you, sir, are an idiot or intentionally dishonest. The whole tournament format was built on keeping people in. You know, people who qualified when people didn't know how to play and when maps were pretty ridiculously Terran-favoured...
I wasn't saying JUST ghosts and ravens. I'm saying why don't more Terrans mix them in to their late game army. That one game in the GSL 3-4 ravens were very effective.
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On August 14 2012 23:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks. Wake me when Overlords take 65 seconds to build and halt all production any time they move.
Comparing overlords to barracks is just bad logic. The two cannot be compared. I like your point and I have noticed that no one has responded to it.
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While you amateurs / no names cry about balance, Blizzard makes millions. You guys earn $7.50/hr. Maybe some of you don't even have a job.
User was warned for this post
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good changes! 
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On August 15 2012 01:05 LikeOhMyGod wrote:
While you amateurs / no names cry about balance, Blizzard makes millions. You guys earn $7.50/hr. Maybe some of you don't even have a job.
What exactly is your point?
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On August 15 2012 00:53 Assirra wrote:
So this thread went from talking about the actual changes and you know, the patch to another balance whining thread.
Surprised? After "it's the Broodlord", "it's the Ultralisk", "it's the Infestor", "it's injects", "it's creep"(*), "it's the ghost nerf", "it's Thors being not strong enough against Unit X", "it's the queen buff", everyone that did not say (*) will be disappointed with the patch notes to begin with... 
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On August 15 2012 00:44 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
this thread is becoming ridiculous. I am very sure its *not* blizzard who fails understanding the Terran race ^^.
A lot of QQ in this thread points to the fact, that low-level-terrans are not used to macro play and fail in scouting. Now they are crying that their favored gimmick 'agressive' build does not work anymore .. imba imba.
I never found it entertaining watching a TvZ, when 80% of the games were decided at the 7 minute mark and terrans basically did not need to scout or adapt in any way. Yes, I'm sure that it's actually the Terrans who do not understand the game. The most innovative race that flushed out their strategies much earlier than the other two races, and was nerfed as a result. Now, we are left with a race that has no real new strategies, has been nerfed to other races' buffs, and meanwhile, the other races learned to play their races. It is these three factors that has led us to the problems in TvZ that we see today. It appears to me that Zergs are quick to mention "QQ" or "whining", instead of addressing the substantive issues about the current state of TvZ. The fact is, Zerg is the easiest and most forgiving race to play and I say that from experience. Zerg has the best beginning, mid and late game scouting. All units are produced from central infrastructure and tech buildings need only be built once to ensure the use of that tech. 11/11 rax and other early strategies have been completely neutered to the extent that Zerg need not even prepare or fear them; they can be blindly defended. And that idea of "blind defense" sadly has become generalized to much of the early to mid game in both ZvT and ZvP. What's the answer if Terran goes reactor hellion? What's the answer if Terran goes early banshee? What's the answer if Terran goes reaper harass? What's the answer if Terran goes some 2 rax variant? The answer is always the same and there is never a question of whether or not to produce more queens. It's a fucking given. And it is precisely this sort of delineation that makes an RTS flawed. There should always be a tension between choices, especially as it relates to resource allocation. There should not be just 1 obvious, easy-to-execute, one size fits all option. But there is for Zerg, which is a design problem and makes Zerg so much easier than either Protoss or Terran at all levels. And as someone who plays Zerg at rank 1 master and Terran at rank 3 master, I know these problems firsthand from both sides.
While I get the theory behind your anti-queen argument, I don't see why this should apply only to Zerg and not to Terran as well.
While it is problematic that Zerg can blindly build queens and drones at the same time, it is not an issue that Terran can blindly build marines and SCVs? or Hellions and SCVs? The two major Terran builds that have so obviously been nerfed into nonexistent are guilty of the same exact lack of tension that you so readily point out in the Zerg side.
We haven't lost a great decision and depth that used to be available in the game. No, we have only moved the blind building standard from one side to both. That somehow makes things unfair... The logic escapes me. Why is Zerg having a safe opening for once somehow the end of the world?
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On August 15 2012 00:57 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 23:07 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks. Wake me when Overlords take 65 seconds to build and halt all production any time they move. Comparing overlords to barracks is just bad logic. The two cannot be compared. I like your point and I have noticed that no one has responded to it.
no1 has responded cus its a bad comparison. overlord was originally mentioned as being a scouting mechanism. the guy was talking about making an extra barracks for scouting not using a production barracks. an overlord doesnt even have production whether moving or stationary but it does give supply. so its basically benefit of scouting with something that you already make for supply vs another relatively cheap scouting option that is faster/more durable.
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On August 15 2012 01:40 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 00:44 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
this thread is becoming ridiculous. I am very sure its *not* blizzard who fails understanding the Terran race ^^.
A lot of QQ in this thread points to the fact, that low-level-terrans are not used to macro play and fail in scouting. Now they are crying that their favored gimmick 'agressive' build does not work anymore .. imba imba.
I never found it entertaining watching a TvZ, when 80% of the games were decided at the 7 minute mark and terrans basically did not need to scout or adapt in any way. Yes, I'm sure that it's actually the Terrans who do not understand the game. The most innovative race that flushed out their strategies much earlier than the other two races, and was nerfed as a result. Now, we are left with a race that has no real new strategies, has been nerfed to other races' buffs, and meanwhile, the other races learned to play their races. It is these three factors that has led us to the problems in TvZ that we see today. It appears to me that Zergs are quick to mention "QQ" or "whining", instead of addressing the substantive issues about the current state of TvZ. The fact is, Zerg is the easiest and most forgiving race to play and I say that from experience. Zerg has the best beginning, mid and late game scouting. All units are produced from central infrastructure and tech buildings need only be built once to ensure the use of that tech. 11/11 rax and other early strategies have been completely neutered to the extent that Zerg need not even prepare or fear them; they can be blindly defended. And that idea of "blind defense" sadly has become generalized to much of the early to mid game in both ZvT and ZvP. What's the answer if Terran goes reactor hellion? What's the answer if Terran goes early banshee? What's the answer if Terran goes reaper harass? What's the answer if Terran goes some 2 rax variant? The answer is always the same and there is never a question of whether or not to produce more queens. It's a fucking given. And it is precisely this sort of delineation that makes an RTS flawed. There should always be a tension between choices, especially as it relates to resource allocation. There should not be just 1 obvious, easy-to-execute, one size fits all option. But there is for Zerg, which is a design problem and makes Zerg so much easier than either Protoss or Terran at all levels. And as someone who plays Zerg at rank 1 master and Terran at rank 3 master, I know these problems firsthand from both sides. While I get the theory behind your anti-queen argument, I don't see why this should apply only to Zerg and not to Terran as well. While it is problematic that Zerg can blindly build queens and drones at the same time, it is not an issue that Terran can blindly build marines and SCVs? or Hellions and SCVs? The two major Terran builds that have so obviously been nerfed into nonexistent are guilty of the same exact lack of tension that you so readily point out in the Zerg side. We haven't lost a great decision and depth that used to be available in the game. No, we have only moved the blind building standard from one side to both. That somehow makes things unfair... The logic escapes me. Why is Zerg having a safe opening for once somehow the end of the world?
Yes... I know... being more flexible and allowed to choose between workers and units is a terrible terrible burden. Poor you.
Also 3rax marines and 1raxFE is basically the same.. it's just marines and SCVs... no tension at all.. probably because both die to the ling/bling and the roach bane bust... Instead terran always goes the same old same old 15CC/1rax/FE/hellion-expand/proxy2rax. It's really just one opener, compared to the wide variety that is 15hatch 3 queens, which has a ton of variations...
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3815 Posts
On August 15 2012 01:41 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 00:57 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 23:07 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:On August 13 2012 23:33 Shiori wrote:
You know, when Jermstuddog said that the Marine scales so well with micro and that that's a problem which needs to be nerfed, I actually felt sad. That's one of the only good things in this game. If anything, give other races units similar to the Marine. If you nerf the Marine and take away its micro potential, you get another shitty, boring a-move race. That's not Starcraft. We need more units that amazing players can do magic with. Not more Broodlords or Battlecruisers or Colossi or other uninspired, expensive a-move trash. I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best. I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy. I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game. In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks. Wake me when Overlords take 65 seconds to build and halt all production any time they move. Comparing overlords to barracks is just bad logic. The two cannot be compared. I like your point and I have noticed that no one has responded to it. no1 has responded cus its a bad comparison. overlord was originally mentioned as being a scouting mechanism. the guy was talking about making an extra barracks for scouting not using a production barracks. an overlord doesnt even have production whether moving or stationary but it does give supply. so its basically benefit of scouting with something that you already make for supply vs another relatively cheap scouting option that is faster/more durable.
The difference here is that you rally your first Overlord to a scouting position. You can't do that with your first Rax, for obvious reasons. The only time you'd be able to use a Rax to scout is when you wouldn't otherwise need it or when you have the money to make another Rax without sacrificing anything. This doesn't really happen because making Raxes to scout has no immediate benefit. The Overlord thing works because you get the full utility of the Overlord until you're ready to replace it. The Rax thing doesn't work because you have to make a Rax with the express purpose of it being totally useless.
Basically, the Overlord is something you start with which doesn't lose utility when it scouts. It also takes a lot less time to build, doesn't give any tells as to your build order (floating a Rax over your opponent gives him some information) and can be replaced on the fly because of this. If Raxes were like flying Warpgates, this scouting would be possible, since you could continue to use it while it scouts and then just remember to replace it when it's about to die, as you do with Overlords.
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On August 14 2012 12:43 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:34 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 12:32 Jermstuddog wrote:
The numbers speak for themselves bro.
Just making sure you're aware of them while you QQ about how broke Terran is. The "numbers" only have a vague relationship to actual balance. Using them as an absolute measure is absolutely retarded. What, were you pro nerfing Zerg when TvZ winrates favoured Zerg a couple months ago? When the win rates are on your side, use the win rates, when the meta game supports your side, use the meta game, when none are in your favor, bang your hands on the table and yell really loudly(Or post in every remotely balance related thread every waking moment of the day).
This is describes most people obsessed with balance discussion. If Blizzard were actually reading this, it would be very easy for them to see who has bias. When someone starts saying that every aspect of a race is imbalanced, we know his nature. Plus, Blizzard isn't full of retards; we don't have anything to fear from the whiners.
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On August 15 2012 01:51 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 01:41 Bluerain wrote:On August 15 2012 00:57 zmansman17 wrote:On August 14 2012 23:07 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 23:05 Ziggitz wrote:On August 14 2012 17:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 14 2012 01:15 Shantastic wrote:On August 14 2012 01:11 Chaggi wrote:On August 14 2012 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 13 2012 23:46 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this. I think most of us appreciate the beauty of a well-microed platoon of marines. It's a beautiful thing to see when executed by the world's best.
I do wish other races had more micro-intensive units like the marine. Because it is precisely these types of units which make starcraft such a great game to watch. They add a way to differentiate skill and they enable a player to be stingy in terms of army, while bolstering their economy.
I do want to add, however, that marines are the most over-rated unit in the game. As someone who plays all three races at a high level, I can candidly say that marines are not good passed a certain in-game time. I've always been surprised that more people didn't talk about the crackling, which in my opinion, scales much better throughout the game in either MU and is a potent weapon at any phase of the game.
In the end, I Think the new Terran HotS units are a step backwards. Sure we give Terran some nice A-move units, which we need (God knows we don't need more micro-intensive units). However, why not give Protoss and Zerg some more variety and micro-intensive options. Firstly, I never said marine micro needs to be nerfed. Marine micro is an awesome spectacle and should remain so. The problem with marines is if you don't slaughter them, they slaughter you. There is no happy medium. Due to their insane DPS, decent range, incredible movement speed, decent hp and huge synergy with every other terran unit, in particular, other marines and medivacs. Fungal + Blings how are marines really a problem anymore? is this like 2 years ago? what? Conversely: Stim + Splits ZvT midgame is fine. I think the point of debate is Zerg Tier 3, and having to deal with Brood Lords, Infestors, Lings, and Banelings at the same time. Personally, I believe that the metagame just needs to adapt, and Terrans need to find new timings, OR be just as greedy as Zergs and punish super-fast lategame Zerg by going for that dynamic, drop-heavy, high-mobility style of lategame Bio. Back to fundamentals. If he's investing 600 minerals in defense, and another 300 in expanding, you should be investing up to 1k in expanding and teching yourself. Are you really comparing fungal and blings (2 clicks) to the full stim/split procedure and conclude the workload is fairly balanced? Apart from the fact that marines need to be pre-split to avoid fungal. Hell.. I would love if there was an ability that would force my opponent to pre-split his zerglings, banelings and infestor... You say the ZvT midgame is fine. Fine as in no problem, because it's non-existant mostly. Terran has been forced onto 3 bases at least and the push-out happens no longer to kill of the Zerg 3rd, but rather his 4th.It all moves towards the lategame, where the Zerg strengths shine with great tech units, a beastly economy and the ability to remax and change army composition in record time. So far I haven't seen a single timing that works. The thing that looked most like a timing was the Sting vs Darkforce game on CK in the TSL4, where Sting stayed on 2 bases with 3 facts pumping tanks. Yet if Darkforce had not donated all infestors for free, I'm not sure if the push would have worked. That leaves - trololol - the terran attempt to outgreed the zerg. If terran invests 1k resources into expanding, that isn't even 2 OCs. There is no safety, no defense and the 2 OCs don't do shit to increase the production. So 1 OC and 3 rax vs 4 defensive queens and a super fast 3rd... seems like a bad bargain. Also as a zerg, you should be familiar with the ZvZ dynamic, where at a given point, Zergs switch from drones to mass units trying to kill their opponent. Now imagine you don't have an overlord floating right outside their base... AND you cannot switch into mass units as well. That's why massive greed by terrans is so vulnerable, it's cheese. The moment the Zerg smells it (and he will thx to the ferrarilords) he can either kick his economy into overdrive (if you don't believe me, play Terran vs a buddy with Zerg and agree on a NR 12 - the compare the eco in the replay) or hit the kill switch and roll you. Bottom line - the 1k investment does very little to boost t he safety, production and economy of Terran compared to the Zergs. There's this awesome flying terran unit that's only 150 minerals no supply and it's faster and has more hitpoints than an overlord. It's called a barracks. Wake me when Overlords take 65 seconds to build and halt all production any time they move. Comparing overlords to barracks is just bad logic. The two cannot be compared. I like your point and I have noticed that no one has responded to it. no1 has responded cus its a bad comparison. overlord was originally mentioned as being a scouting mechanism. the guy was talking about making an extra barracks for scouting not using a production barracks. an overlord doesnt even have production whether moving or stationary but it does give supply. so its basically benefit of scouting with something that you already make for supply vs another relatively cheap scouting option that is faster/more durable. The difference here is that you rally your first Overlord to a scouting position. You can't do that with your first Rax, for obvious reasons. The only time you'd be able to use a Rax to scout is when you wouldn't otherwise need it or when you have the money to make another Rax without sacrificing anything. This doesn't really happen because making Raxes to scout has no immediate benefit. The Overlord thing works because you get the full utility of the Overlord until you're ready to replace it. The Rax thing doesn't work because you have to make a Rax with the express purpose of it being totally useless. Basically, the Overlord is something you start with which doesn't lose utility when it scouts. It also takes a lot less time to build, doesn't give any tells as to your build order (floating a Rax over your opponent gives him some information) and can be replaced on the fly because of this. If Raxes were like flying Warpgates, this scouting would be possible, since you could continue to use it while it scouts and then just remember to replace it when it's about to die, as you do with Overlords.
honestly the only time floating a rax would be useful is
- if you're going mech
or
- if you proxy 2 raxed**
** which is actually retarded to do anyways cause you should be using it as part of your walloff at that point
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EPT
