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On August 17 2012 13:40 JonnyREcco wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 13:27 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 13:09 JonnyREcco wrote:On August 17 2012 12:51 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 12:33 JonnyREcco wrote:
This patch is acually quite stupid when terrans who just expand everywhere while denying zerg getting over 5 bases with drops and small bio groups and then also build ravens on top of that are basically impossible to beat unless they fail at splitting their units or run all their vikings into fungal -_- . I dont understand why the raven needs a buff and creep needs nerfed. How many maps even HAVE more than 5 bases each?...... -.- If terran has that much supply tied up in that many drops supposedly denying all those bases out on the map, just go and kill them lol. Ravens need a buff that'll actually make them viable units. Yeah terran has 140 supply invested into dropping.. no you cant just go kill terran especially if there sitting on a pf . You can trade ok with a terran army with 3-3 ups . But when they expand everywhere and have mules terran economy is insane and the time you get to the pf theres already rallied reinforcements tanks etc that you can just push into and kill. You also cant deal with a pf effectivaly if you try and kill 1 your going to have a ton of bio shred your army while the pf gets repaired, and spines are also pretty useless to stop 3-3 bio aswell. Also its not even the drops killing bases, until you have t3 ultra or bl you cant hold onto bases at the front so your sitting on 3-4 base while terran has 5 with mules aswell. The point in the game you're talking about both races should be on 3-3 with zerg on T3. With the way you worded it the terran has at least 30 supply out in drops which means you can trade amazingly well with a terran army. Don't attack into a PF... I can't think of a single map (there may be one, I just can't think of it) where you only have one attack route that would be likely to have a PF at. If a terran is expanding so fast they're on 5 bases to your 3 then they have sacrificed a lot of unit producing capabilities. You should be able to tell if they're going for mass expanding and so again, just go and kill them with your superior production. Before you respond with "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks". If that's the case, then it should be easy to deny their expos while expanding yourself. Its really cute that you think terran cant expand alot and have massive production lol. I dont think you get that when terran timing attack hits its the full 140 supply with maybe 8 in a medevac going to main or something and the terran doesn't always have 30 supply out in medevacs denying bases, they go out deny a base and die and then is instantly remaxed into the main army with terrans insane economy , and if terran is equal upgrades you cant trade anywhere near effectavly when they have triple factory producing tanks , thats if you go ultra , if you go bl then for example a map like daybreak you'll just lose the 4th and 5th base without being able to hold it which then turns into terran being on 5 base to your 3. every single base the terran takes after their third is a PF so theres no way to deny terrans bases without his bio running up behind you while he repairs it like I said before. and yes "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks" Why would you think its possible to deny bases when if you go BL its slow as hell and they just counter or if you go ultra the terrans bio tank army trades so effectivly. If you want some replays to prove that 2-2/3-3 ultra ling infestor is terrible against bio tank i'll be happy to give some replays to prove how bad it acually is. This is all assuming the terran can acually spread his army and doesn't stupidly get everything fungaled to death on the first timing push to presure.
I guess you're just a waaaaaaaaaay more talented player than MajOr then, how to 3-0 an imbaterran player?
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Especially seeing the IEM games, I hope everyone realizes how unnecessary the Raven buff was.
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On August 17 2012 17:05 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 13:40 JonnyREcco wrote:On August 17 2012 13:27 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 13:09 JonnyREcco wrote:On August 17 2012 12:51 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 12:33 JonnyREcco wrote:
This patch is acually quite stupid when terrans who just expand everywhere while denying zerg getting over 5 bases with drops and small bio groups and then also build ravens on top of that are basically impossible to beat unless they fail at splitting their units or run all their vikings into fungal -_- . I dont understand why the raven needs a buff and creep needs nerfed. How many maps even HAVE more than 5 bases each?...... -.- If terran has that much supply tied up in that many drops supposedly denying all those bases out on the map, just go and kill them lol. Ravens need a buff that'll actually make them viable units. Yeah terran has 140 supply invested into dropping.. no you cant just go kill terran especially if there sitting on a pf . You can trade ok with a terran army with 3-3 ups . But when they expand everywhere and have mules terran economy is insane and the time you get to the pf theres already rallied reinforcements tanks etc that you can just push into and kill. You also cant deal with a pf effectivaly if you try and kill 1 your going to have a ton of bio shred your army while the pf gets repaired, and spines are also pretty useless to stop 3-3 bio aswell. Also its not even the drops killing bases, until you have t3 ultra or bl you cant hold onto bases at the front so your sitting on 3-4 base while terran has 5 with mules aswell. The point in the game you're talking about both races should be on 3-3 with zerg on T3. With the way you worded it the terran has at least 30 supply out in drops which means you can trade amazingly well with a terran army. Don't attack into a PF... I can't think of a single map (there may be one, I just can't think of it) where you only have one attack route that would be likely to have a PF at. If a terran is expanding so fast they're on 5 bases to your 3 then they have sacrificed a lot of unit producing capabilities. You should be able to tell if they're going for mass expanding and so again, just go and kill them with your superior production. Before you respond with "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks". If that's the case, then it should be easy to deny their expos while expanding yourself. Its really cute that you think terran cant expand alot and have massive production lol. I dont think you get that when terran timing attack hits its the full 140 supply with maybe 8 in a medevac going to main or something and the terran doesn't always have 30 supply out in medevacs denying bases, they go out deny a base and die and then is instantly remaxed into the main army with terrans insane economy , and if terran is equal upgrades you cant trade anywhere near effectavly when they have triple factory producing tanks , thats if you go ultra , if you go bl then for example a map like daybreak you'll just lose the 4th and 5th base without being able to hold it which then turns into terran being on 5 base to your 3. every single base the terran takes after their third is a PF so theres no way to deny terrans bases without his bio running up behind you while he repairs it like I said before. and yes "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks" Why would you think its possible to deny bases when if you go BL its slow as hell and they just counter or if you go ultra the terrans bio tank army trades so effectivly. If you want some replays to prove that 2-2/3-3 ultra ling infestor is terrible against bio tank i'll be happy to give some replays to prove how bad it acually is. This is all assuming the terran can acually spread his army and doesn't stupidly get everything fungaled to death on the first timing push to presure. I guess you're just a waaaaaaaaaay more talented player than MajOr then, how to 3-0 an imbaterran player?
He already accounted for that:
unless they fail at splitting their units or run all their vikings into fungal -_-
every single base the terran takes after their third is a PF so theres no way to deny terrans bases without his bio running up behind you while he repairs it like I said before. and yes "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks"
Have you tried ultralisk drops? 3 to a planetary, optional nydus worm to get them home.
any kind of drops to be honest - my impression is that taking out production and depots has a bigger impact on the terran then killing workers.
I like that the acceleration change makes the raven more responsive and spells go off a little quicker. I don't really like the speed.
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On August 17 2012 17:05 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 13:40 JonnyREcco wrote:On August 17 2012 13:27 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 13:09 JonnyREcco wrote:On August 17 2012 12:51 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 12:33 JonnyREcco wrote:
This patch is acually quite stupid when terrans who just expand everywhere while denying zerg getting over 5 bases with drops and small bio groups and then also build ravens on top of that are basically impossible to beat unless they fail at splitting their units or run all their vikings into fungal -_- . I dont understand why the raven needs a buff and creep needs nerfed. How many maps even HAVE more than 5 bases each?...... -.- If terran has that much supply tied up in that many drops supposedly denying all those bases out on the map, just go and kill them lol. Ravens need a buff that'll actually make them viable units. Yeah terran has 140 supply invested into dropping.. no you cant just go kill terran especially if there sitting on a pf . You can trade ok with a terran army with 3-3 ups . But when they expand everywhere and have mules terran economy is insane and the time you get to the pf theres already rallied reinforcements tanks etc that you can just push into and kill. You also cant deal with a pf effectivaly if you try and kill 1 your going to have a ton of bio shred your army while the pf gets repaired, and spines are also pretty useless to stop 3-3 bio aswell. Also its not even the drops killing bases, until you have t3 ultra or bl you cant hold onto bases at the front so your sitting on 3-4 base while terran has 5 with mules aswell. The point in the game you're talking about both races should be on 3-3 with zerg on T3. With the way you worded it the terran has at least 30 supply out in drops which means you can trade amazingly well with a terran army. Don't attack into a PF... I can't think of a single map (there may be one, I just can't think of it) where you only have one attack route that would be likely to have a PF at. If a terran is expanding so fast they're on 5 bases to your 3 then they have sacrificed a lot of unit producing capabilities. You should be able to tell if they're going for mass expanding and so again, just go and kill them with your superior production. Before you respond with "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks". If that's the case, then it should be easy to deny their expos while expanding yourself. Its really cute that you think terran cant expand alot and have massive production lol. I dont think you get that when terran timing attack hits its the full 140 supply with maybe 8 in a medevac going to main or something and the terran doesn't always have 30 supply out in medevacs denying bases, they go out deny a base and die and then is instantly remaxed into the main army with terrans insane economy , and if terran is equal upgrades you cant trade anywhere near effectavly when they have triple factory producing tanks , thats if you go ultra , if you go bl then for example a map like daybreak you'll just lose the 4th and 5th base without being able to hold it which then turns into terran being on 5 base to your 3. every single base the terran takes after their third is a PF so theres no way to deny terrans bases without his bio running up behind you while he repairs it like I said before. and yes "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks" Why would you think its possible to deny bases when if you go BL its slow as hell and they just counter or if you go ultra the terrans bio tank army trades so effectivly. If you want some replays to prove that 2-2/3-3 ultra ling infestor is terrible against bio tank i'll be happy to give some replays to prove how bad it acually is. This is all assuming the terran can acually spread his army and doesn't stupidly get everything fungaled to death on the first timing push to presure. I guess you're just a waaaaaaaaaay more talented player than MajOr then, how to 3-0 an imbaterran player?
kinda funny how he was practically non existant before patch 1.5 yet complaining about how bad zerg is. why dont you play terran then?
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if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o
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On August 17 2012 18:38 Grumbels wrote:
if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o
Perhaps people woudent be so hostile if he posted something worth while. If thats the standard from pro's i think most people would like it if they stayed the hell away
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On August 17 2012 18:41 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 18:38 Grumbels wrote:
if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o Perhaps people woudent be so hostile if he posted something worth while. If thats the standard from pro's i think most people would like it if they stayed the hell away
I think it's a good idea to at least assume that a pro player knows what he's talking about more so than your average forum poster and to be a lot more careful in arguing with them. (we owe them that courtesy, really)
What really shouldn't happen is "Lol you are a trash player go cry more".
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waitwaitwait, are they acctualy testing lategame unit raven where most zvt ends before 4th base really goes down for both players?
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On August 17 2012 17:14 mierin wrote:
Especially seeing the IEM games, I hope everyone realizes how unnecessary the Raven buff was.
Eh? It was seriously needed, in those games Nestea just really mucked up and didn't have any fungals for them. He also clumped up totally.
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On August 17 2012 18:48 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 18:41 Solarist wrote:On August 17 2012 18:38 Grumbels wrote:
if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o Perhaps people woudent be so hostile if he posted something worth while. If thats the standard from pro's i think most people would like it if they stayed the hell away I think it's a good idea to at least assume that a pro player knows what he's talking about more so than your average forum poster and to be a lot more careful in arguing with them. (we owe them that courtesy, really) What really shouldn't happen is "Lol you are a trash player go cry more".
Most pro are biased like no tomorrow.
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On August 17 2012 18:48 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 18:41 Solarist wrote:On August 17 2012 18:38 Grumbels wrote:
if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o Perhaps people woudent be so hostile if he posted something worth while. If thats the standard from pro's i think most people would like it if they stayed the hell away I think it's a good idea to at least assume that a pro player knows what he's talking about more so than your average forum poster and to be a lot more careful in arguing with them. (we owe them that courtesy, really) What really shouldn't happen is "Lol you are a trash player go cry more".
It isnt even as much whats he's saying ( tho i dissagree with what he's saying aswell) But more so the tone of whats being said . Dont think allow condescending snide posting is allowed even if you're a pro
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On August 17 2012 17:14 mierin wrote:
Especially seeing the IEM games, I hope everyone realizes how unnecessary the Raven buff was.
Yeah, because 0.25 of speed is GAMEBREAKING in overbuffing the raven.
Holy shit how dumb can people be. It's such a minor buff -_-
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On August 17 2012 16:31 Djagulingu wrote:
Creep radius change really should be revoked. Creep spread becomes a lot more difficult than pre-queen range buff. It will affect a lot of zerg players who aren't Ko Seok Hyeon (even he will be affected pretty badly). Along with raven speed buff, late game creep maintenance will be fucking impossible.
Raven speed buff would be pretty good without creep tumor nerf though.
The creep tumor nerf is necessary so that Z players don't spam creep tumors to death. It's ridiculous that you can deny a 4th with pure creep.
On August 17 2012 21:06 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 18:48 Grumbels wrote:On August 17 2012 18:41 Solarist wrote:On August 17 2012 18:38 Grumbels wrote:
if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o Perhaps people woudent be so hostile if he posted something worth while. If thats the standard from pro's i think most people would like it if they stayed the hell away I think it's a good idea to at least assume that a pro player knows what he's talking about more so than your average forum poster and to be a lot more careful in arguing with them. (we owe them that courtesy, really) What really shouldn't happen is "Lol you are a trash player go cry more". Most pro are biased like no tomorrow.
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
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On August 17 2012 21:20 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 18:48 Grumbels wrote:On August 17 2012 18:41 Solarist wrote:On August 17 2012 18:38 Grumbels wrote:
if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o Perhaps people woudent be so hostile if he posted something worth while. If thats the standard from pro's i think most people would like it if they stayed the hell away I think it's a good idea to at least assume that a pro player knows what he's talking about more so than your average forum poster and to be a lot more careful in arguing with them. (we owe them that courtesy, really) What really shouldn't happen is "Lol you are a trash player go cry more". It isnt even as much whats he's saying ( tho i dissagree with what he's saying aswell) But more so the tone of whats being said . Dont think allow condescending snide posting is allowed even if you're a pro
His tone is fine. He is defending his reasoning. Not everything is candy canes and lollipops. As for disagreeing with him, I find that sort of funny considering how low of a league you play. How could you possibly disagree when your understanding is much lower than his? Im confused about that.
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On August 17 2012 22:25 superstartran wrote:
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money.
Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
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On August 17 2012 23:06 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 22:25 superstartran wrote:
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be. Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only. I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
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On August 17 2012 17:25 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 17:05 AxionSteel wrote:On August 17 2012 13:40 JonnyREcco wrote:On August 17 2012 13:27 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 13:09 JonnyREcco wrote:On August 17 2012 12:51 ArchAngelSC wrote:On August 17 2012 12:33 JonnyREcco wrote:
This patch is acually quite stupid when terrans who just expand everywhere while denying zerg getting over 5 bases with drops and small bio groups and then also build ravens on top of that are basically impossible to beat unless they fail at splitting their units or run all their vikings into fungal -_- . I dont understand why the raven needs a buff and creep needs nerfed. How many maps even HAVE more than 5 bases each?...... -.- If terran has that much supply tied up in that many drops supposedly denying all those bases out on the map, just go and kill them lol. Ravens need a buff that'll actually make them viable units. Yeah terran has 140 supply invested into dropping.. no you cant just go kill terran especially if there sitting on a pf . You can trade ok with a terran army with 3-3 ups . But when they expand everywhere and have mules terran economy is insane and the time you get to the pf theres already rallied reinforcements tanks etc that you can just push into and kill. You also cant deal with a pf effectivaly if you try and kill 1 your going to have a ton of bio shred your army while the pf gets repaired, and spines are also pretty useless to stop 3-3 bio aswell. Also its not even the drops killing bases, until you have t3 ultra or bl you cant hold onto bases at the front so your sitting on 3-4 base while terran has 5 with mules aswell. The point in the game you're talking about both races should be on 3-3 with zerg on T3. With the way you worded it the terran has at least 30 supply out in drops which means you can trade amazingly well with a terran army. Don't attack into a PF... I can't think of a single map (there may be one, I just can't think of it) where you only have one attack route that would be likely to have a PF at. If a terran is expanding so fast they're on 5 bases to your 3 then they have sacrificed a lot of unit producing capabilities. You should be able to tell if they're going for mass expanding and so again, just go and kill them with your superior production. Before you respond with "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks". If that's the case, then it should be easy to deny their expos while expanding yourself. Its really cute that you think terran cant expand alot and have massive production lol. I dont think you get that when terran timing attack hits its the full 140 supply with maybe 8 in a medevac going to main or something and the terran doesn't always have 30 supply out in medevacs denying bases, they go out deny a base and die and then is instantly remaxed into the main army with terrans insane economy , and if terran is equal upgrades you cant trade anywhere near effectavly when they have triple factory producing tanks , thats if you go ultra , if you go bl then for example a map like daybreak you'll just lose the 4th and 5th base without being able to hold it which then turns into terran being on 5 base to your 3. every single base the terran takes after their third is a PF so theres no way to deny terrans bases without his bio running up behind you while he repairs it like I said before. and yes "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks" Why would you think its possible to deny bases when if you go BL its slow as hell and they just counter or if you go ultra the terrans bio tank army trades so effectivly. If you want some replays to prove that 2-2/3-3 ultra ling infestor is terrible against bio tank i'll be happy to give some replays to prove how bad it acually is. This is all assuming the terran can acually spread his army and doesn't stupidly get everything fungaled to death on the first timing push to presure. I guess you're just a waaaaaaaaaay more talented player than MajOr then, how to 3-0 an imbaterran player? kinda funny how he was practically non existant before patch 1.5 yet complaining about how bad zerg is. why dont you play terran then?
Indeed, players like him, SortOf, VortiX etc are flying up the ranks in Europe from nowhere, I don't see any terrans doing the same 
I guess they're all far less talented though.
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On August 17 2012 23:30 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 23:06 Noocta wrote:On August 17 2012 22:25 superstartran wrote:
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be. Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only. I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth. Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you. I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
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On August 17 2012 22:45 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 21:20 Solarist wrote:On August 17 2012 18:48 Grumbels wrote:On August 17 2012 18:41 Solarist wrote:On August 17 2012 18:38 Grumbels wrote:
if you're so hostile to pro players they'll never post again :o Perhaps people woudent be so hostile if he posted something worth while. If thats the standard from pro's i think most people would like it if they stayed the hell away I think it's a good idea to at least assume that a pro player knows what he's talking about more so than your average forum poster and to be a lot more careful in arguing with them. (we owe them that courtesy, really) What really shouldn't happen is "Lol you are a trash player go cry more". It isnt even as much whats he's saying ( tho i dissagree with what he's saying aswell) But more so the tone of whats being said . Dont think allow condescending snide posting is allowed even if you're a pro His tone is fine. He is defending his reasoning. Not everything is candy canes and lollipops. As for disagreeing with him, I find that sort of funny considering how low of a league you play. How could you possibly disagree when your understanding is much lower than his? Im confused about that.
Wait so let me get this straight. Because he's higher rank i have to take his word for good? So lets say MMA comes out tommorow and says " Guys i got it, the answer to lategame TvZ is a 200/200 army consisting of scvs!" You'd just jump on that? I can see why you're confused mate
And people can be biased, even pros (i know, shocking right!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!)
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On August 13 2012 06:06 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 05:30 DemigodcelpH wrote:On August 13 2012 05:17 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 13 2012 04:46 SolidMoose wrote:On August 13 2012 03:31 MasterFischer wrote:On August 13 2012 03:21 Shiori wrote:On August 13 2012 03:17 MasterFischer wrote:
I got a sort of related question to this debate... Concerning brood war..
Were Zergs considered to be just as behind, if left on equal bases versus p and t as they do in Starcraft 2 ?
I mean... It's always bugged me little bit, that Zerg basically HAS to expand and be greedy, otherwise, they are all-in from the start of the match basically. Was this the case in brood war, and if so, was it just as profoundly implemented in the game mechanics? No idea about BW, but it's not even really true in Sc2. It's grossly exaggerated how many bases Zergs need to be competitive. Yes, eventually they need to expand, but they don't need to do it as greedily as they do now for them to be even. A 4 minute third isn't necessary in ZvT. So 1base zerg is equally as good as 1base terran, is that what you're saying? Or 2base zerg vs 2base Terran? My understanding is that, zerg always needs to be at least 1base ahead of their opponnent to NOT be all-in, basically. This is IMO one of the biggest misunderstandings of the entire game. Zerg really does not to be one base up, you can do a lot on even bases with macro hatches. The simple fact is more bases = more money, so Zerg will always have an advantage with extra mining bases, just like Terran and Protoss. well, it's more about the 3 base dynamic than anything else, which the game revolves around. if p or t is on 3 base you need 4-5 as zerg. i'ts just the way it works with gas and tech. sc2 isn't exclusively a 2-base game anymore. precisely why the game can be stressful for zerg, units aren't nearly as good at feigning aggression and then taking a third like protoss, or the triple/quad cc shit. the pivotal part of this whole thing is t and p scout if zerg is taking that fast third or not, and can respond accordingly. i don't think there are imbalances in the match-up, it's just that people don't have the unit control at lower levels to maximize terran's strengths. the way we saw taeja win unwinnable engangements with pure micro alone, because that's what you're allowed to do with terran. it's just really challenging to pull off. the way zerg has an unlimited skill ceiling with macro, terran has it with unit control. nothing new, but to me it's the reason terrans struggle outside of korea vs top tier opponents. Aside from the simple but repetitive task of hitting injects Zerg macro is more simplistic than the other races in that it's not linear, and that everything comes from the same place drones do. shouldn't have to respond to this, because it's brain-melting, but between injects and creep spread and economy management, there's always something you can be doing better. compared to chronoboosting an obvious building and dropping mules, yeah i'd say there's a higher ceiling there.
I don't really see the skill ceiling with Zerg at all. Vortix reached Rank 1 GM on EU and he barely uses creep in his games. The fact is you have so many great options as Zerg and if you only do a few of them half-decently you're bound to beat really good players who are probably better than you.
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EPT
