Well, I think the real problem is that Jrecco's post reads like a pissy QQ that I'd expect from a Diamond level player in the Designated Balance thread.
On August 17 2012 12:33 JonnyREcco wrote: This patch is acually quite stupid when terrans who just expand everywhere while denying zerg getting over 5 bases with drops and small bio groups and then also build ravens on top of that are basically impossible to beat unless they fail at splitting their units or run all their vikings into fungal -_- . I dont understand why the raven needs a buff and creep needs nerfed.
How many maps even HAVE more than 5 bases each?...... -.-
If terran has that much supply tied up in that many drops supposedly denying all those bases out on the map, just go and kill them lol.
Ravens need a buff that'll actually make them viable units.
Yeah terran has 140 supply invested into dropping.. no you cant just go kill terran especially if there sitting on a pf . You can trade ok with a terran army with 3-3 ups . But when they expand everywhere and have mules terran economy is insane and the time you get to the pf theres already rallied reinforcements tanks etc that you can just push into and kill. You also cant deal with a pf effectivaly if you try and kill 1 your going to have a ton of bio shred your army while the pf gets repaired, and spines are also pretty useless to stop 3-3 bio aswell. Also its not even the drops killing bases, until you have t3 ultra or bl you cant hold onto bases at the front so your sitting on 3-4 base while terran has 5 with mules aswell.
The point in the game you're talking about both races should be on 3-3 with zerg on T3. With the way you worded it the terran has at least 30 supply out in drops which means you can trade amazingly well with a terran army.
Don't attack into a PF... I can't think of a single map (there may be one, I just can't think of it) where you only have one attack route that would be likely to have a PF at.
If a terran is expanding so fast they're on 5 bases to your 3 then they have sacrificed a lot of unit producing capabilities. You should be able to tell if they're going for mass expanding and so again, just go and kill them with your superior production.
Before you respond with "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks". If that's the case, then it should be easy to deny their expos while expanding yourself.
Its really cute that you think terran cant expand alot and have massive production lol. I dont think you get that when terran timing attack hits its the full 140 supply with maybe 8 in a medevac going to main or something and the terran doesn't always have 30 supply out in medevacs denying bases, they go out deny a base and die and then is instantly remaxed into the main army with terrans insane economy , and if terran is equal upgrades you cant trade anywhere near effectavly when they have triple factory producing tanks , thats if you go ultra , if you go bl then for example a map like daybreak you'll just lose the 4th and 5th base without being able to hold it which then turns into terran being on 5 base to your 3.
every single base the terran takes after their third is a PF so theres no way to deny terrans bases without his bio running up behind you while he repairs it like I said before. and yes "you can't go and kill them if they're sitting behind siege tanks" Why would you think its possible to deny bases when if you go BL its slow as hell and they just counter or if you go ultra the terrans bio tank army trades so effectivly. If you want some replays to prove that 2-2/3-3 ultra ling infestor is terrible against bio tank i'll be happy to give some replays to prove how bad it acually is.
This is all assuming the terran can acually spread his army and doesn't stupidly get everything fungaled to death on the first timing push to presure.
I guess you're just a waaaaaaaaaay more talented player than MajOr then, how to 3-0 an imbaterran player?
kinda funny how he was practically non existant before patch 1.5 yet complaining about how bad zerg is. why dont you play terran then?
Indeed, players like him, SortOf, VortiX etc are flying up the ranks in Europe from nowhere, I don't see any terrans doing the same I guess they're all far less talented though.
I think soon enough people will realize that it's not that these guys are exceptional players. They are good players. But the more compelling factor here is that they play Zerg.
I feel bad when I beat GMs offracing as Zerg because I've only had 2 weeks of Zerg play and so little experience, and yet that is sufficient to beat players that are much better than I am with Zerg. It's sad really.
On August 18 2012 00:10 Shiori wrote: Well, I think the real problem is that Jrecco's post reads like a pissy QQ that I'd expect from a Diamond level player in the Designated Balance thread.
Holy shit someone who actually read what Jrecco wrote, instead of just saying " he's a pro he's right you know"
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
Nice job of actually reading my post.
Idra said the match-up is stupid, never said it was hard for either side. It's just one side is racing against the clock with really powerful rushes and timings, while the other side is trying to delay the other side for as long as possible because they virtually autowin late game if they aren't completely stupid.
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
Nice job of actually reading my post.
Idra said the match-up is stupid, never said it was hard for either side. It's just one side is racing against the clock with really powerful rushes and timings, while the other side is trying to delay the other side for as long as possible because they virtually autowin late game if they aren't completely stupid.
Yeah, I'm well aware of what you said. Doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong and is very thinly veiled balance whine.
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
Nice job of actually reading my post.
Idra said the match-up is stupid, never said it was hard for either side. It's just one side is racing against the clock with really powerful rushes and timings, while the other side is trying to delay the other side for as long as possible because they virtually autowin late game if they aren't completely stupid.
Yeah, I'm well aware of what you said. Doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong and is very thinly veiled balance whine.
Idra said it, not me. He was playing Z at the time so go tell him he's whining. I was merely pointing out that various pro players make comments and opinions all the time (such as Idra stating that the Infestor buff was absolutely ridiculous), and yet people shit on their opinions here at TL by saying that "THEY ARE BIASED THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY TALKING ABOUT."
Thinly veiled balance whine? How about you whining in every PvZ thread? Please; stop harassing me kid.
No pro player is perfect; Idra was the poster boy for the Z whine brigade that brought this whole mess of a situation that everyone is in right now, with both T and P refusing to try and go late game against Z and just simply doing some sort of 2 or 2 and a half base all-in, or a 3 base timing that virtually dumps all resources into one attack. That being said, quite a few pro player opinions have been spat on these forums just because people say "they are whining" rather than actually trying to read whether or not the opinion has any merit or not (which more often than not the pro player opinion does have some merit).
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
Nice job of actually reading my post.
Idra said the match-up is stupid, never said it was hard for either side. It's just one side is racing against the clock with really powerful rushes and timings, while the other side is trying to delay the other side for as long as possible because they virtually autowin late game if they aren't completely stupid.
Yeah, I'm well aware of what you said. Doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong and is very thinly veiled balance whine.
Idra said it, not me. He was playing Z at the time so go tell him he's whining. I was merely pointing out that various pro players make comments and opinions all the time (such as Idra stating that the Infestor buff was absolutely ridiculous), and yet people shit on their opinions here at TL by saying that "THEY ARE BIASED THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY TALKING ABOUT."
Thinly veiled balance whine? How about you whining in every PvZ thread? Please; stop harassing me kid.
No pro player is perfect; Idra was the poster boy for the Z whine brigade that brought this whole mess of a situation that everyone is in right now, with both T and P refusing to try and go late game against Z and just simply doing some sort of 2 or 2 and a half base all-in, or a 3 base timing that virtually dumps all resources into one attack. That being said, quite a few pro player opinions have been spat on these forums just because people say "they are whining" rather than actually trying to read whether or not the opinion has any merit or not (which more often than not the pro player opinion does have some merit).
On average, people don't dismiss the opinions of pro players. The only times I've seen it happen are when it's (old) Idra, Avilo, or JRecco.
I'm pretty sure nobody said DRG has no idea what he's talking about when he said that the Overlord/Queen buffs were too much. They said that they didn't agree, but they didn't start saying DRG is a whiny idiot, because he's not. The post Jonnyrecco made in this thread, on the other hand, was utter whine in every sense. Perhaps there's a nugget of truth in there, but if you obscure it with so much childish rhetoric, nobody is going to notice it, and I can't say I blame them.
Pro players are often biased, though. Sometimes when they talk about matchups they don't play it's because they want to see a race get nerfed in a way that will inadvertently help them in one of their matchups (Idra's comments about TvP make sense when you consider his complaints about the Toss deathball post-release, for example). It's better to look at what the majority of players are saying and why they're saying it. Very rarely, we'll get players from every race more or less agreeing on something (like that the Queen change was too much of a buff, for example). But usually, it's just mudslinging.
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
Nice job of actually reading my post.
Idra said the match-up is stupid, never said it was hard for either side. It's just one side is racing against the clock with really powerful rushes and timings, while the other side is trying to delay the other side for as long as possible because they virtually autowin late game if they aren't completely stupid.
Yeah, I'm well aware of what you said. Doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong and is very thinly veiled balance whine.
Idra said it, not me. He was playing Z at the time so go tell him he's whining. I was merely pointing out that various pro players make comments and opinions all the time (such as Idra stating that the Infestor buff was absolutely ridiculous), and yet people shit on their opinions here at TL by saying that "THEY ARE BIASED THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY TALKING ABOUT."
Thinly veiled balance whine? How about you whining in every PvZ thread? Please; stop harassing me kid.
No pro player is perfect; Idra was the poster boy for the Z whine brigade that brought this whole mess of a situation that everyone is in right now, with both T and P refusing to try and go late game against Z and just simply doing some sort of 2 or 2 and a half base all-in, or a 3 base timing that virtually dumps all resources into one attack. That being said, quite a few pro player opinions have been spat on these forums just because people say "they are whining" rather than actually trying to read whether or not the opinion has any merit or not (which more often than not the pro player opinion does have some merit).
On average, people don't dismiss the opinions of pro players. The only times I've seen it happen are when it's (old) Idra, Avilo, or JRecco.
I'm pretty sure nobody said DRG has no idea what he's talking about when he said that the Overlord/Queen buffs were too much. They said that they didn't agree, but they didn't start saying DRG is a whiny idiot, because he's not. The post Jonnyrecco made in this thread, on the other hand, was utter whine in every sense. Perhaps there's a nugget of truth in there, but if you obscure it with so much childish rhetoric, nobody is going to notice it, and I can't say I blame them.
Pro players are often biased, though. Sometimes when they talk about matchups they don't play it's because they want to see a race get nerfed in a way that will inadvertently help them in one of their matchups (Idra's comments about TvP make sense when you consider his complaints about the Toss deathball post-release, for example). It's better to look at what the majority of players are saying and why they're saying it. Very rarely, we'll get players from every race more or less agreeing on something (like that the Queen change was too much of a buff, for example). But usually, it's just mudslinging.
I agree with you on most of this. Even though pro players are usually biased, they will usually comment on a problem that does exist. The reason everyone is ignoring JRecco's post is it isn't even a problem that exists. Complaining that terran can mass expand to 5 bases while zerg is on 3 and have massive production at the same time is just ridiculous whining, that it isn't worth reading. When Idra complains about protoss, for instance, there is always truth to what he says, he just ignores the other side of the coin (i.e. what protoss have issues with against zerg).
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
Nice job of actually reading my post.
Idra said the match-up is stupid, never said it was hard for either side. It's just one side is racing against the clock with really powerful rushes and timings, while the other side is trying to delay the other side for as long as possible because they virtually autowin late game if they aren't completely stupid.
Yeah, I'm well aware of what you said. Doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong and is very thinly veiled balance whine.
Idra said it, not me. He was playing Z at the time so go tell him he's whining. I was merely pointing out that various pro players make comments and opinions all the time (such as Idra stating that the Infestor buff was absolutely ridiculous), and yet people shit on their opinions here at TL by saying that "THEY ARE BIASED THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY TALKING ABOUT."
Thinly veiled balance whine? How about you whining in every PvZ thread? Please; stop harassing me kid.
No pro player is perfect; Idra was the poster boy for the Z whine brigade that brought this whole mess of a situation that everyone is in right now, with both T and P refusing to try and go late game against Z and just simply doing some sort of 2 or 2 and a half base all-in, or a 3 base timing that virtually dumps all resources into one attack. That being said, quite a few pro player opinions have been spat on these forums just because people say "they are whining" rather than actually trying to read whether or not the opinion has any merit or not (which more often than not the pro player opinion does have some merit).
On average, people don't dismiss the opinions of pro players. The only times I've seen it happen are when it's (old) Idra, Avilo, or JRecco.
I'm pretty sure nobody said DRG has no idea what he's talking about when he said that the Overlord/Queen buffs were too much. They said that they didn't agree, but they didn't start saying DRG is a whiny idiot, because he's not. The post Jonnyrecco made in this thread, on the other hand, was utter whine in every sense. Perhaps there's a nugget of truth in there, but if you obscure it with so much childish rhetoric, nobody is going to notice it, and I can't say I blame them.
Pro players are often biased, though. Sometimes when they talk about matchups they don't play it's because they want to see a race get nerfed in a way that will inadvertently help them in one of their matchups (Idra's comments about TvP make sense when you consider his complaints about the Toss deathball post-release, for example). It's better to look at what the majority of players are saying and why they're saying it. Very rarely, we'll get players from every race more or less agreeing on something (like that the Queen change was too much of a buff, for example). But usually, it's just mudslinging.
I agree with you on most of this. Even though pro players are usually biased, they will usually comment on a problem that does exist. The reason everyone is ignoring JRecco's post is it isn't even a problem that exists. Complaining that terran can mass expand to 5 bases while zerg is on 3 and have massive production at the same time is just ridiculous whining, that it isn't worth reading. When Idra complains about protoss, for instance, there is always truth to what he says, he just ignores the other side of the coin (i.e. what protoss have issues with against zerg).
They still know more than the average poster. This is why TL is dumb as shit sometimes; it would be like you not listening to what Dendi had to say in DotA 2 about X or Y being overpowered. That is not to say that you should listen to them blindly; however, their word carries alot more weight than the normal poster, even as biased as they may be.
Overall, pro in other games are a lot lesslike that, they don't have to defend their race because it's what earn them their money. Dota is different, you're never a player of 1 or 2 hero only.
I've seen enough proplayers post on TL to know that, even if their opinion is valuable, it's not the golden truth.
Even when the pro players are talking about their own race being overpowered? DRG mentioned in a not to long ago interview that he felt that the combination of the OL speed buff and the Queen range buff was completely unnecessary. Or what about pro players commentating about a match-up they don't play? Idra has gone on record stating that TvP is absolutely stupid ever since the beta, stating that its always a race against the clock for Terran before Protoss hits critical mass AoE and just stomps you.
I understand that pro players can be biased sometimes. Maka single handily caused a huge shitstorm of imbalanced play with his direct QQ to David Kim regarding the VR timing (that no one even saw) that was supposedly unbeatable. But when TL members who have far less credentails just shit on pro player opinions, then we have a problem.
Idra saying TvP is hard for the Terran actually leads me to believe that the opposite is true.
Nice job of actually reading my post.
Idra said the match-up is stupid, never said it was hard for either side. It's just one side is racing against the clock with really powerful rushes and timings, while the other side is trying to delay the other side for as long as possible because they virtually autowin late game if they aren't completely stupid.
Yeah, I'm well aware of what you said. Doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong and is very thinly veiled balance whine.
Idra said it, not me. He was playing Z at the time so go tell him he's whining. I was merely pointing out that various pro players make comments and opinions all the time (such as Idra stating that the Infestor buff was absolutely ridiculous), and yet people shit on their opinions here at TL by saying that "THEY ARE BIASED THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY TALKING ABOUT."
Thinly veiled balance whine? How about you whining in every PvZ thread? Please; stop harassing me kid.
No pro player is perfect; Idra was the poster boy for the Z whine brigade that brought this whole mess of a situation that everyone is in right now, with both T and P refusing to try and go late game against Z and just simply doing some sort of 2 or 2 and a half base all-in, or a 3 base timing that virtually dumps all resources into one attack. That being said, quite a few pro player opinions have been spat on these forums just because people say "they are whining" rather than actually trying to read whether or not the opinion has any merit or not (which more often than not the pro player opinion does have some merit).
On average, people don't dismiss the opinions of pro players. The only times I've seen it happen are when it's (old) Idra, Avilo, or JRecco.
I'm pretty sure nobody said DRG has no idea what he's talking about when he said that the Overlord/Queen buffs were too much. They said that they didn't agree, but they didn't start saying DRG is a whiny idiot, because he's not. The post Jonnyrecco made in this thread, on the other hand, was utter whine in every sense. Perhaps there's a nugget of truth in there, but if you obscure it with so much childish rhetoric, nobody is going to notice it, and I can't say I blame them.
Pro players are often biased, though. Sometimes when they talk about matchups they don't play it's because they want to see a race get nerfed in a way that will inadvertently help them in one of their matchups (Idra's comments about TvP make sense when you consider his complaints about the Toss deathball post-release, for example). It's better to look at what the majority of players are saying and why they're saying it. Very rarely, we'll get players from every race more or less agreeing on something (like that the Queen change was too much of a buff, for example). But usually, it's just mudslinging.
Idra's whining was at least often based in fact, or a good assessment of actual games. The guy's analysis is usually spot on, it's just his mentality that is bad. This isn't me shitting on Idra either, he's said on his RealTalk appearance that he's not the kind of guy to come up with creative solutions, he's merely good at critiquing what's there and present in the metagame at that time.
It just blows my mind to see somebody complaining about situations that almost never happen, when he's getting good results and never encountering it because it's not viable
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
On August 18 2012 02:18 kaokentake wrote: heres my balance idea
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
so zerg will have auto spread vs motherships and other stuff? what kind of an idea is that... remove micro from the game so you dont have to nerf something sounds bad
On August 18 2012 02:18 kaokentake wrote: heres my balance idea
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
so zerg will have auto spread vs motherships and other stuff? what kind of an idea is that... remove micro from the game so you dont have to nerf something sounds bad
this guy is right. id rather just continue dealing with zerg rather than removing skill from the game. fucking awful idea.
On August 18 2012 02:18 kaokentake wrote: heres my balance idea
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
Why not just get this:
With that logic the game would get rid of alot of the micro that people have to do nowadays. Just hit the scatter button and marines split themselves against banelings, MMM gets out of the aoe range of collosus, lings can avoid the aoe of tanks, storms hit only a few units at once, etc. Adding a scatter button would be basically the same thing as adding a micro bot like this.
And to those who argued earlier that terran was fine at the highest skill level and used Taeja as their example, I tell you, terran is imba at the highest skill level. Just look at the micro of that bot, way over 3000 apm! I say nerf terran to hell! /endsarcasm
Do you see the flaw in your rguments? If you force every terran to have micro like this bot or the comparatively "easy" micro that taeja does, you can just more or less remove terran from the game because nobody will ever reach that skill level. So a buff to terran or nerf to other races has to either affect ALL skill levels or all skill levels up to taeja's for the changes to have any significance to the matchup. But what changes can be made to prevent the matchup from being imbalanced at any level and to stop all of these people from whining when the matchup is being fixed?
On August 18 2012 02:18 kaokentake wrote: heres my balance idea
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
With that logic the game would get rid of alot of the micro that people have to do nowadays. Just hit the scatter button and marines split themselves against banelings, MMM gets out of the aoe range of collosus, lings can avoid the aoe of tanks, storms hit only a few units at once, etc. Adding a scatter button would be basically the same thing as adding a micro bot like this.
And to those who argued earlier that terran was fine at the highest skill level and used Taeja as their example, I tell you, terran is imba at the highest skill level. Just look at the micro of that bot, way over 3000 apm! I say nerf terran to hell! /endsarcasm
Do you see the flaw in your rguments? If you force every terran to have micro like this bot or the comparatively "easy" micro that taeja does, you can just more or less remove terran from the game because nobody will ever reach that skill level. So a buff to terran or nerf to other races has to either affect ALL skill levels or all skill levels up to taeja's for the changes to have any significance to the matchup. But what changes can be made to prevent the matchup from being imbalanced at any level and to stop all of these people from whining when the matchup is being fixed?
I'd rather just make other races harder with a higher skill cap. Terran micro can be mindlessly easy sometimes but it's always necessary. I just don't see why other races can't have similar mechanics.
On August 18 2012 02:18 kaokentake wrote: heres my balance idea
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
With that logic the game would get rid of alot of the micro that people have to do nowadays. Just hit the scatter button and marines split themselves against banelings, MMM gets out of the aoe range of collosus, lings can avoid the aoe of tanks, storms hit only a few units at once, etc. Adding a scatter button would be basically the same thing as adding a micro bot like this.
And to those who argued earlier that terran was fine at the highest skill level and used Taeja as their example, I tell you, terran is imba at the highest skill level. Just look at the micro of that bot, way over 3000 apm! I say nerf terran to hell! /endsarcasm
Do you see the flaw in your rguments? If you force every terran to have micro like this bot or the comparatively "easy" micro that taeja does, you can just more or less remove terran from the game because nobody will ever reach that skill level. So a buff to terran or nerf to other races has to either affect ALL skill levels or all skill levels up to taeja's for the changes to have any significance to the matchup. But what changes can be made to prevent the matchup from being imbalanced at any level and to stop all of these people from whining when the matchup is being fixed?
I'd rather just make other races harder with a higher skill cap. Terran micro can be mindlessly easy sometimes but it's always necessary. I just don't see why other races can't have similar mechanics.
I think Protoss have a lot of good micro potential that are not being used. Mostly because they might be way too intensive.
For example, unlike Terran armies which are very homogeneous in this respect, Protoss balls are a mix of different range and speed units. When attacking or defending Protoss probably has the biggest burden of correct positioning, something which always messes up whenever you move. Always keeping zealots in front sentries slightly behind (also positioning sentries more efficiently so as you cover more of your army with GS) and flanking with them stalkers. Making sure your HT are split and not too far behind.
Most games you will never see that constant level of attention because it can become way too taxing. But as time goes on I think Protoss players will eventually start making these micro changes to be even more effective. Also a lot of people underestimate the skill and accuracy needed to place efficient FFs, since, unlike fungals, FFs can work against a Protoss if you're not careful.
Dunno, it just feels like people only consider the marine splitting for banelings and nothing else when it comes to intensive micro. I know at Diamond level marine splitting is really important for terrans bcs banelings/fungal/storm are stupidly powerful when you can't micro well, but when you consider play at the highest level I think Protoss positioning and micro are severely underrated (especially in terms of potential micro).
On August 18 2012 02:18 kaokentake wrote: heres my balance idea
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
Yeah lets also add autocasting for spells and autoblink etc. Blizzard already lowered the skill gap with automine, unlimited control groups and smart casting, lets not fuck it up even more with auto scattering. Yes what you described is really hard on like a diamond level, but nothing should ever be added to the game to "fix" that level of play. Pro level shows that it's easily possible to split well, and the more we continue down the road the better people will get it.
Also BeyondCtrL just made a really good post above me, everyone should read and comprehend what he posted, I feel like especially terran players who suck at splitting etc. underestimate how hard protoss micro really is on the highest level of play and how much potential is still unused in terms of unit positioning. And no i'm not saying this because I'm toss, I play random.
On August 18 2012 02:18 kaokentake wrote: heres my balance idea
giving ravens increased speed is a fine idea, however
the mechanics required to move across the map against zerg while splitting your army DURING the moveout is insane. keeping your army from clumping is insane.
Give all units a scatter command. when pressed it causes all units to scatter away from nearby friendly units for 1 second. Spamming the scatter command can allow for quick spreads of units for much easier time moving across the map in a spread formation.
A scatter command would heavily nerf fungal growth without needing to touch its stats at all
With that logic the game would get rid of alot of the micro that people have to do nowadays. Just hit the scatter button and marines split themselves against banelings, MMM gets out of the aoe range of collosus, lings can avoid the aoe of tanks, storms hit only a few units at once, etc. Adding a scatter button would be basically the same thing as adding a micro bot like this.
And to those who argued earlier that terran was fine at the highest skill level and used Taeja as their example, I tell you, terran is imba at the highest skill level. Just look at the micro of that bot, way over 3000 apm! I say nerf terran to hell! /endsarcasm
Do you see the flaw in your rguments? If you force every terran to have micro like this bot or the comparatively "easy" micro that taeja does, you can just more or less remove terran from the game because nobody will ever reach that skill level. So a buff to terran or nerf to other races has to either affect ALL skill levels or all skill levels up to taeja's for the changes to have any significance to the matchup. But what changes can be made to prevent the matchup from being imbalanced at any level and to stop all of these people from whining when the matchup is being fixed?
I'd rather just make other races harder with a higher skill cap. Terran micro can be mindlessly easy sometimes but it's always necessary. I just don't see why other races can't have similar mechanics.
I think Protoss have a lot of good micro potential that are not being used. Mostly because they might be way too intensive.
For example, unlike Terran armies which are very homogeneous in this respect, Protoss balls are a mix of different range and speed units. When attacking or defending Protoss probably has the biggest burden of correct positioning, something which always messes up whenever you move. Always keeping zealots in front sentries slightly behind (also positioning sentries more efficiently so as you cover more of your army with GS) and flanking with them stalkers. Making sure your HT are split and not too far behind.
Most games you will never see that constant level of attention because it can become way too taxing. But as time goes on I think Protoss players will eventually start making these micro changes to be even more effective. Also a lot of people underestimate the skill and accuracy needed to place efficient FFs, since, unlike fungals, FFs can work against a Protoss if you're not careful.
Dunno, it just feels like people only consider the marine splitting for banelings and nothing else when it comes to intensive micro. I know at Diamond level marine splitting is really important for terrans bcs banelings/fungal/storm are stupidly powerful when you can't micro well, but when you consider play at the highest level I think Protoss positioning and micro are severely underrated (especially in terms of potential micro).
Protoss doesn't need to do any of that and they can win 90% of the time. The only time control comes into play as protoss is when the other player is either a) coming at you with ~equal forces or b) coming at you with stronger forces. Terran CONSTANTLY has to micro due to the fragility of their units compared to the other races, even in situations where they're ahead. As Terran, there is rare a "macro" win where, regardless of the units being thrown away, theA+move and macro of the Terran is overwhelming. It's always using those few units with good macro and micro that wins games, ALWAYS.
EPT
