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On August 09 2012 05:48 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:46 Noocta wrote:
I wish they could adress the fact that the Raven has too many upgrades too.
Energy upgrade and HSM upgrade should be the only ones.
Durable materials could really be made baseline without any heavy balance problem. I also find it to be inconsistent that auto-turrets' damage do not scale with upgrades while Infested Terrans and Broodlings both do. Makes the ability almost totally irrelevant against armor upgrades which every unit should have by the time Ravens hit the field.
Well you can use Terran Building armor to make them pretty tough, but that's even more upgrade just for the raven.
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Can anyone actually find this map? I tried to search in Custom Game and Arcade both, with no success.
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I don't think it's a real balance concern, but zerg map control with creep and overlords is remarkably strong - leading to commentators frequently joking about the legal map hack a good zerg player has. I can see a future change to decrease the vision range of the overlord, but I don't think it's really important as good terran players can still find ways to be aggressive simply by exploiting immobility and the combat weaknesses of zerglings. To have perfect map control you do need more than vision, you also need mobility and strength.
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On August 09 2012 05:47 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:43 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:39 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? That would never work against GSL Zerg, as we found out already half year ago. Gumiho chose that strategy because he rightfully expected KeSPA players not be able to handle it properly, since they never played through 20 ghost end game phase and have no experience dealing with it since no one uses it on ladder (with good reason). 20 ghost end game was so you could faceroll over brood lords and ultras with one unit, not so you could EMP infestors, which should still be done today. It's like saying Infestor is used to fungal, not infested Terran, so make infested Terran double energy cost would not change them. What? I read what you wrote, and that isn't right, it isn't even wrong, just nonsensical. He said that people aren't even trying to make ghosts to deal with the huge amount of infestors zergs are making, despite the fact that it's a great unit for that purpose and very good at it, especially since it also unlocks nukes (which are great). He said that people should make ghosts for the purpose of EMP'ing things and sniping infestors, and that the reason the heavy ghost play left is that people were previously only using them to annihilate broods and ultras and can't do that anymore, so they stopped entirely. He's completely correct on both accounts. People stopped making ghosts not because they are bad at stopping infestors (they're hilariously easy to use for that if you get cloak and take out the overseers, which isn't hard since it has to be poaching forward somewhat, you can even snipe it with the ghosts themselves), but because they aren't an auto-win unit anymore.
No, the problem why people stopped making mass ghost is you can't transition out of it, and Zerg overruns you with ling/bling/roach based army when you have 20 ghost on the map.
Infestor is good/decent against everything
Ghost is good agaisnt Infestor
How does that make Ghost a better unit?
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On August 09 2012 05:50 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:48 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 09 2012 05:46 Noocta wrote:
I wish they could adress the fact that the Raven has too many upgrades too.
Energy upgrade and HSM upgrade should be the only ones.
Durable materials could really be made baseline without any heavy balance problem. I also find it to be inconsistent that auto-turrets' damage do not scale with upgrades while Infested Terrans and Broodlings both do. Makes the ability almost totally irrelevant against armor upgrades which every unit should have by the time Ravens hit the field. Well you can use Terran Building armor to make them pretty tough, but that's even more upgrade just for the raven.
That bugs me also. Auto-Turrets benefit from building upgrades but not ship upgrades, while no other Terran unit shares this pattern.
I made a thread on b.net a while ago suggesting that we just scrap auto-turrets scaling with building upgrades and make them scale completely with ship upgrades the way infested Terrans do with Zerg ground upgrades.
It just makes it consistent and has the benefit for making the damn things scale better.
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On August 09 2012 05:45 Kamwah wrote:
I think these changes will be helpful but I also don't think they're going to answer the real problems.
- Zerg's map control is too high with Overlord Spread, Creep Spread and their units are very good at area control.
- Creep spread needs to recede faster and that's the only nerf that I think should happen to it.
- HSM is useless against Ultras and relying on Ravens against BLs is pretty meh. If there was a good transition then you'd basically see the same as PvZ where a spellcaster decides it all with a few good hits(vortex).
It's just my opinion but someones going to start an argument with me for no reason XD
I think you are confusing map control with map presence/map vision. You cant control anything with overlords and creep because they dont offer the zerg a way to fight back if the terran were to attack said area. However, they do give the zerg buffers and alert the zerg when the terran is coming so that the zerg can react. A control unit, for example, would be the seige tank since it sits there and blast everything that enters its area.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS.
Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades.
You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem.
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At the very highest levels of eSports competition, we feel that terran players are at a slight disadvantage against zerg. Many terran players, specifically those just below the very highest skill level, are underperforming in this matchup.
lol slight disadvantage.
looking at the graphs in the other thread, TvZ is currently at its most imbalanced.
i personally dont think that the changes will fix the matchup, buffing the raven just gives terran another micro intensive unit to struggle with and will force a slightly different metagame for the zerg at most.
i suppose at this point it doesnt matter that much though, everybody is waiting for HotS anyways...
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On August 09 2012 05:50 Grubby wrote:
Can anyone actually find this map? I tried to search in Custom Game and Arcade both, with no success.
I've been trying, I even tweeted Starcraft about it when they posted that it was up. No response just yet.
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Germany199 Posts
i wish they would get rid of the raven completely and exchange it with something cool.
it's still a bad unit with the movement speed increase.
and i dare to not believe that tvz has equal winrate below pro level.
no way that's true.
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On August 09 2012 05:43 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:39 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? That would never work against GSL Zerg, as we found out already half year ago. Gumiho chose that strategy because he rightfully expected KeSPA players not be able to handle it properly, since they never played through 20 ghost end game phase and have no experience dealing with it since no one uses it on ladder (with good reason). 20 ghost end game was so you could faceroll over brood lords and ultras with one unit, not so you could EMP infestors, which should still be done today. It's like saying Infestor is used to fungal, not infested Terran, so make infested Terran double energy cost would not change them.
Of course you could use the EMP on infestors too but they were primarily being used to demolish zerg T3 units. EMP was nerfed because blanket EMPs could take an entire protoss army to 50% health instantly and still having energy left over to clean it up with snipes. Snipe was nerfed because Terrans were beating Zergs end game with a single spell. Brood Lords? Snipe. Ultras? Snipe. Overseers to see the ghosts? Snipe. Then proceed to nuke every zerg base while killing all your workers off to improve your maxout even more.
I can see Infested Terrans being nerfed in the future anyway, especially as more zergs are realising they are more effective than chain fungals in engagements
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cool testing balance on antiga. looks like the patch wont go through
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They should really make the raven the most imbalanced unit in the game, and then nerf it. I really think it's one of the worst units in the game atm...
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Holy crap a possible Terran buff, am I reading this correctly??
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I honestly think that a cost reduction/rebalance for the Raven and its upgrades would be much better, but this is the next best thing. The creep changes REALLY make me feel better about the way it looks like Blizzard balances internally, too.
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On August 09 2012 05:48 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:46 Noocta wrote:
I wish they could adress the fact that the Raven has too many upgrades too.
Energy upgrade and HSM upgrade should be the only ones.
Durable materials could really be made baseline without any heavy balance problem. I also find it to be inconsistent that auto-turrets' damage do not scale with upgrades while Infested Terrans and Broodlings both do. Makes the ability almost totally irrelevant against armor upgrades which every unit should have by the time Ravens hit the field.
Wow this is a good point. That "throwaway" energy after there is none left for fungal is used to spam infested terrans and they can do some good damage. After a Seeker Missile/Pdd the throwaway energy for Ravens is the Auto-Turret and they basically tickle anything that has decent armour upgrades.
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On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem.
+3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page.
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Isn't it hilarious to see how they procede? First they smash Snipe, then they allow a race with the strongest production capabilities to be even greedier by giving 2 extra range to a mineral-only unit—and then, months after problems arose, they plan to do this? +0,25 movespeed to a mediocre caster, and some slowdown to creep spread which, anyway, should have never been made possible with Queens only?
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On August 09 2012 05:45 -niL wrote:
I wish the hunter seeker energy was 75 or 100, 125 is too much
I agree with this sentiment, tho 75 would be far too cheap at it's current damage, and 100 might be as well. 125, however, is far to prohibitive to ever see the light of day.
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EPT
