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I don't think a lot of zergs have really mastered creep spread yet. Although a lot of them are quite good at it if their opponent does not interfere, many fall apart if only a little bit of pressure is exerted and don't replace lost creep properly. It's quite easy, you can leave spare tumors for the purpose of replacement or you can just have a somewhat forward queen around. Of course, it requires precise control, reflexes and multitasking as your queen needs to somehow avoid the enemy's army - so it's too difficult for your average GM zerg.
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This is just my opinion, but since most players try to spread creep well before the full radius is reached, wouldnt the creep change mostly affect the lower league players?
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United States7483 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:55 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You can't be serious. Freaky went mass infestors in zvz and won. Then went mass infestors in zvp and held out for a disgusting amount of time considering his brain-dead composition. Now go mass ghost in tvx even against players shittier than yourself and see what happens.
I meant once the infestors are gone*, not good, that was a typo. And yeah, he went mass infestor, thank you for supporting my point. Take the infestors out of the equation with some ghost support and he just loses.
And you don't go 'mass ghost', you make 10-20 of them depending on the situation. That's 20-40 supply, as terran you have around 140 supply available for your army in the mid-game, and late game a lot more as you sacrifice scvs for more supply with mules. I don't think anyone considers having less than 1/5 of your army as one unit 'massing' it.
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Blizzard should really consider removing the Durable Materials upgrade along with the other Raven changes. It's honestly so minor upgrade and Raven is already a big investment. And as a result it would be granted to Raven's automatically. Increasing Seeker Missile duration would be the only significant change and the truth is that even if Raven's are used you rarely see Seeker Missile last for over 15 seconds.
Removing Durable Materials upgrade also fit's to the category "Because ravens are difficult to use, we don’t expect this buff will have more than a small impact on high-level play or any significant impact on balance at most skill levels."
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Stupid Taeja, Ryung and Reality making this MU look balanced =P
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United States7483 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem. +3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page.
*rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway.
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The Creep-Nerf is to hard.
(Imagine Zerg going back to 2-Queens)
Raven Buff is weak and does not adress the issue of a boring meta game.
what is one to do with the Raven now that could not be accomplished before?
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On August 09 2012 06:01 SpaceYeti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:45 -niL wrote:
I wish the hunter seeker energy was 75 or 100, 125 is too much I agree with this sentiment, tho 75 would be far too cheap at it's current damage, and 100 might be as well. 125, however, is far to prohibitive to ever see the light of day.
People always make this mistake: they like a unit and want to see it used so they propose all sorts of 'fair' buffs. However, your buff would just overpower the raven and make terran lategame versus zerg unstoppable, similar to when the ghost had the powerful snipe.
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I think that they should play with Raven spell ranges. Too often, Ravens have to go on a suicide mission just to use one of their spells. Their range makes them very vulnerable to feedback, fungal, and even just getting target fired down.
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Norway839 Posts
Progressing creep will not change as long as it's being chained. The vision radius on the edges will obviously be a bit smaller. However, the total amount of creep spread should still be unaffected (minus the edges when the spread stops for any given reason). When a zerg is chaining his tumors as soon as the cooldown is ready, the creep will spread at the same pace as before in the given direction. Zergs will now be punished harder if they are sloppy with their cooldowns, though, as there is less progression after the change.
Recessing creep or single tumors (after a scan) will be less effective as the vision and creep range is shorter. Anywhere the creep has its edges, this patch stands as a nerf compared to before.
A relatively major change is related to spreading creep up/down terrains, cliffs and smokescreens and over gaps/platforms. It will be more difficult than previously and demand higher levels of precision from the player. Shorter range means that it's even more important to plant the tumor close to the bottom or top of a ramp before advancing it further. Same goes for smokescreens. Moving the creep across platforms and valleys like from Main to 3rd using edge tumors and overlord creep on Antiga Shipyard MIGHT NOT be possible anymore (has to be tested).
This potential change increases the skill cap of the game. I don't know if it's necessarily good for the matchup, but if it goes through it'll be a good change that encourages and rewards precision and multitasking. It will increase the difference in creep spread between lazy zergs like Snute, and good zergs like DRG!
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Creep spread change sounds like it might be significant.
Raven speed means nothing as ravens are still trash and will continue to be trash aside from TvT and making just 1 for detection. 125 energy to HSM and "maybe" hit something with super slow projectile speed for 100 dmg + some splash is god awful.
1 storm/fungal is 10x harder to dodge than HSM and does WAY more dmg b/c of this. Did I mention infestors/HT's can cast their respective abilities 2x and still have energy left over? Did I mention HTs cost 200, infestors 250, and ravens cost 300? Ravens also take longest time to build and require most infastructure* to mass.
Only pros about raven vs other casters is they have most HP, 1 armor, and detection.
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On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem. +3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page. *rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway.
No, I'm saying:
Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless.
Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can.
If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG.
Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance.
This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once.
It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already.
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I really like the small steps first. I actually wouldn't mind if they take their time implementing this unlike them buffing the queen in under a week (?) or so.
I would like to see more raven buffs (range 6 vs range 9? TT) but it's good to see they actually care about terran.
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I can't see any of these changes having the slightest impact on anything.
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On August 09 2012 06:04 hellblau wrote:
The Creep-Nerf is to hard.
(Imagine Zerg going back to 2-Queens)
Raven Buff is weak and does not adress the issue of a boring meta game.
what is one to do with the Raven now that could not be accomplished before?
thank you for your high level feedback
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Ravens won't be useful until missiles outrange fungal.
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Do people actually spread creep past 8 range often? Not really. They just select a bunch of tumors and spam in some general direction, not caring if creep is still growing. So this will only affect the outer limit of the creep by 2 squares.
Raven change is a step in the right direction.
Ghost Snipe should really be at least 30 dmg to non psionic.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:06 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:02 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:55 Scrubwave wrote:On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You can't be serious. Freaky went mass infestors in zvz and won. Then went mass infestors in zvp and held out for a disgusting amount of time considering his brain-dead composition. Now go mass ghost in tvx even against players shittier than yourself and see what happens. I meant once the infestors are gone*, not good, that was a typo. And yeah, he went mass infestor, thank you for supporting my point. Take the infestors out of the equation with some ghost support and he just loses. That's still utterly wrong. Zerg units are amazing and crazily cost efficient even if you take out infestors.
No they aren't, they're hilariously cost inefficient, are you even watching and playing the same game? Zerg units suck horribly without infestors vs. a well controlled and positioned terran army. Broodlord/corrupter needs infestors to prevent the marines from stimming and running right underneath, and vikings with upgrades (biggest mistake players make is not upgrading their vikings) do just fine against it without infestors (as long as you didn't royally screw up and scout it way too late and didn't make extra starports, but if you did, you deserve to lose). Ultras are hilariously bad if there aren't any infestors to hold the enemy units clumped up and not moving.
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EPT
