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I'd rather have them make minor changes like this. It's a shame that I think a lot of the balance changes in the past have been too drastic. However I don't think these changes will affect much at all. As other people have said, the total amout of creep spread should be the same, and I feel like the raven has other problems than its speed like the range of it's spells and the energy cost.
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On August 09 2012 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:
the highest level of tvz? I think we need to separate the stats for taeja vs z and other terrans vs z lol :O
sounds interesting o,o
Exactly. However, this is a start. The Raven is so freaking hard to use. I spent hundreds of games playing monobattles with the Raven to micro, multi-cast and mess around with raven hotkeys. In the end, I still am god awful with Ravens even as a Rank 1 master terran. Hopefully this will make them at least, marginally easier to use.
With that said, I think the biggest change that must be made is:
Allow Ravens to cast while being fungaled
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On August 09 2012 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:
the highest level of tvz? I think we need to separate the stats for taeja vs z and other terrans vs z lol :O
sounds interesting o,o
taejas account wont get the patch.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:18 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:12 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 06:08 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem. +3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page. *rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway. No, I'm saying: Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless. Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can. If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG. Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance. This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once. It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already. Okay, you try a max roach army against a marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition with 10-20 ghosts mixed in and see how that goes for you, especially since you have no roach attack upgrades. Hell, even give the terran supply tied up in some vikings, you'll get rolled hilariously easily. You're just making things up at this point, have you ever actually seen a high level zerg player switch to mass roach in the late game? Not pure roach, just the infestor supply worth of roach (or ultra, BL, or anything not infestor). Have you tried to engage a maxed out zerg army without infestor when you have a dozen ghost? It's literally like 1/3 of your supply just disappeared before engaging.
Roaches aren't even a consideration, they're just BAD. And you're just making shit up at this point, I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Until you can figure out that 12 ghosts (24 supply) is not 1/3 of your army supply (if your army is a whopping 72 supply total, you've got other problems besides composition), trying to discuss anything with you is a waste of time.
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On August 09 2012 06:14 Shade_CsT wrote:
I am quite OK with the nerf to the Zerg spread creep, but one considerable question will we be able to spread creep on big ramps like Tal'darim Altar ? It's my main concern.
Wow, I just tested the new tumor on the Antiga test map from Blizzard, you must be on the very top of the ramp to be able to build your new tumor on the very bottom of the ramp. I can't imagine spreading creep on Tal'darim with this change, the ramps seem larger than the ramps on Antiga, right ?
Definitely not a small nerf, you'll "waste" some cooldown on creep tumors to place them on the edge of the ramp.
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Seeker Missile range is still too small in my opinion. Instead of giving the ravens a faster movement speed they should try increasing the range of seeker missile to range 7 so that ravens cant get instant fungaled and dont end up blowing themselves up as often.
Also, does anyone else feel as though hellions are too weak vs units that aren't light? Increasing their damage to regular units by maybe 2 would make them more viable throughout the game in all matchups vs just being an early game units like how they're currently used.
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On August 09 2012 06:21 Shade_CsT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:14 Shade_CsT wrote:
I am quite OK with the nerf to the Zerg spread creep, but one considerable question will we be able to spread creep on big ramps like Tal'darim Altar ? It's my main concern. Wow, I just tested the new tumor on the Antiga test map from Blizzard, you must be on the very top of the ramp to be able to build your new tumor on the very bottom of the ramp. I can't imagine spreading creep on Tal'darim with this change, the ramps seem larger than the ramps on Antiga, right ?
Spreading creep shouldn't be as easy as it is and it should come at a cost wherein some opportunity cost is attached to spreading creep.
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On August 09 2012 06:23 Sovern wrote:
Seeker Missile range is still too small in my opinion. Instead of giving the ravens a faster movement speed they should try increasing the range of seeker missile to range 7 so that ravens cant get instant fungaled and dont end up blowing themselves up as often.
Also, does anyone else feel as though hellions are too weak vs units that aren't light? Increasing their damage to regular units by maybe 2 would make them more viable throughout the game in all matchups vs just being an early game units like how they're currently used.
In the end, I agree these changes don't really do anything to solve the main problems, which are:
1) Ravens cannot cast whilst being fungaled
2) Fungal outranges HSM
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On August 09 2012 06:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:18 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 06:12 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 06:08 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:
[quote]
Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem. +3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page. *rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway. No, I'm saying: Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless. Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can. If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG. Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance. This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once. It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already. Okay, you try a max roach army against a marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition with 10-20 ghosts mixed in and see how that goes for you, especially since you have no roach attack upgrades. Hell, even give the terran supply tied up in some vikings, you'll get rolled hilariously easily. You're just making things up at this point, have you ever actually seen a high level zerg player switch to mass roach in the late game? Not pure roach, just the infestor supply worth of roach (or ultra, BL, or anything not infestor). Have you tried to engage a maxed out zerg army without infestor when you have a dozen ghost? It's literally like 1/3 of your supply just disappeared before engaging. Roaches aren't even a consideration, they're just BAD. And you're just making shit up at this point, I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Until you can figure out that 12 ghosts (24 supply) is not 1/3 of your army supply (if your army is a whopping 72 supply total, you've got other problems besides composition), trying to discuss anything with you is a waste of time.
There is literally 0 LAN level game where T build more than a handful of ghost worked against Z since snipe nerf, including by Gumiho who attempted for quite a bit to no result. The only reason it worked against Soulkey is because he never learned how to handle ghost properly. Raven, a unit Blizz just buffed because it is so bad, is considered a better choice than Ghost in late game TvZ. Just think about that.
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On August 09 2012 06:24 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:23 Sovern wrote:
Seeker Missile range is still too small in my opinion. Instead of giving the ravens a faster movement speed they should try increasing the range of seeker missile to range 7 so that ravens cant get instant fungaled and dont end up blowing themselves up as often.
Also, does anyone else feel as though hellions are too weak vs units that aren't light? Increasing their damage to regular units by maybe 2 would make them more viable throughout the game in all matchups vs just being an early game units like how they're currently used. In the end, I agree these changes don't really do anything to solve the main problems, which are: 1) Ravens cannot cast whilst being fungaled
2) Fungal outranges HSM
Well, Ravens will be able to close in faster to cast Seeker Missile so while it doesn't completely solve the problem assuming your opponent does not have perfect micro and fungals all ravens before they are in range it will be easier to get it off now.
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Tumor change is good, not sure about the usefullness of the raven change.
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What. the. fuck...?
Blizzard thinks Z needs help in ZvT and they butcher ghosts, increase overlord speed, and buff Queen range by 2
When the reverse is true (if you look at tlpd graphs the last 3 months ZvT has been the most imbalanced match in history), they make a shit unit slightly faster, even saying the speed is more of a problem than the 125- energy- to- use- their- worse -than- fungal- ability LOL, and make a creep change that will literally do nothing.
It's sad
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I just hope they won't introduce a completly different change that they do not test at the end.
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thank god, finally a nerf to creep
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I wonder why blizzard is afraid of making ravens cost 100 gas, and hsm 100 energy, just to try...
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It's been two years and they're NOW looking at Ravens??!!!
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On August 09 2012 06:24 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:23 Sovern wrote:
Seeker Missile range is still too small in my opinion. Instead of giving the ravens a faster movement speed they should try increasing the range of seeker missile to range 7 so that ravens cant get instant fungaled and dont end up blowing themselves up as often.
Also, does anyone else feel as though hellions are too weak vs units that aren't light? Increasing their damage to regular units by maybe 2 would make them more viable throughout the game in all matchups vs just being an early game units like how they're currently used. In the end, I agree these changes don't really do anything to solve the main problems, which are: 1) Ravens cannot cast whilst being fungaled
2) Fungal outranges HSM
Exactly, if the raven's seeker missile ability even had a range increase of 1 this would make the protoss and zerg players have to be more aware of their micro because they'd have to react faster to the incoming ravens. Right now in both terran matchups ravens are too easy to dispose of by the other races. Having to rely on emping with ghosts to disable templars/infestors, followed by using seeker missile and being careful not to suicide them while using marine/tank or w/e unit micro is terrible imbalanced as most zergs don't even have to do half the micro a terran does in the battle.
That is also the main reason why I think that most terran players need to stop the economy fast expand/3rd bullshit and go back to 1-2 base heavy aggression and even all in play to profit on terrans early to mid game advantage vs allowing the other races to get to the late game this giving them the advantage.
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On August 09 2012 06:31 VPCursed wrote:
thank god, finally a nerf to creep
amen.
I was wondering when this day would come.
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EPT
