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On August 09 2012 05:49 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:45 Kamwah wrote:
I think these changes will be helpful but I also don't think they're going to answer the real problems.
- Zerg's map control is too high with Overlord Spread, Creep Spread and their units are very good at area control.
- Creep spread needs to recede faster and that's the only nerf that I think should happen to it.
- HSM is useless against Ultras and relying on Ravens against BLs is pretty meh. If there was a good transition then you'd basically see the same as PvZ where a spellcaster decides it all with a few good hits(vortex).
It's just my opinion but someones going to start an argument with me for no reason XD I don't think terran really needs something special to be good against ultras though, tanks + marauders are fine. Brood lords are more of an issue because simply making vikings is not enough to kill them with infestor + corruptor. So ravens need an improvement there. I agree with the other two points though.
True. I hate running into BL+Corrupter as a meching Terran because you just can't do anything with those Broodlings messsing up the pathing T_T
I also agree with the others here saying the Ravens shouldn't need so many upgrades. After all, why do we need to pay for HSM? If we just had HSM then it'd be like mass-infestor play, you'd die when you have no energy.
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Whether is it still possible to use one creep tumor to connect the main and the natural?
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Interesting changes but the Reaven will still be trash, or at least a big gamble. The combination of low range for HSM and high energy cost is to much when there are infestors on the field. Auto T are terrible in late game to because they do not benefit from any dmg upgrades.
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On August 09 2012 06:05 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:01 SpaceYeti wrote:On August 09 2012 05:45 -niL wrote:
I wish the hunter seeker energy was 75 or 100, 125 is too much I agree with this sentiment, tho 75 would be far too cheap at it's current damage, and 100 might be as well. 125, however, is far to prohibitive to ever see the light of day. People always make this mistake: they like a unit and want to see it used so they propose all sorts of 'fair' buffs. However, your buff would just overpower the raven and make terran lategame versus zerg unstoppable, similar to when the ghost had the powerful snipe.
Then lower the SM cost to 100, implement a 30-60 second cooldown. One cast per fight. The spell is much more accessible, without overpowering it and making it spammable.
It still doesn't address the issue of SM range, but that's one issue at a time.
Transitioning to Raven play isn't an easy feat at all. For the Resources, Time, and Tech it takes to get the Raven - It's utility as a Support caster leaves a lot to be desired.
Also, Terran late game..?
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ohhh blizzard. You increase queen range so zergs can protect their tumors from hellion contain. Now you are nerfing creep. Just bite the bullet and revert the queen change.
Edit: What even bothers me more about blizzard is that they say "we are seeing good number across the board in tvz," yet they are nerfing zerg and buffing terran. Just admit you're wrong blizzard. The entire sc2 community already thinks you're completely incompetent. You won't lose any respect from us just saying you're wong because you're already at rock bottom in our minds.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:08 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem. +3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page. *rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway. No, I'm saying: Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless. Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can. If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG. Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance. This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once. It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already.
Okay, you try a max roach army against a marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition with 10-20 ghosts mixed in and see how that goes for you, especially since you have no roach attack upgrades. Hell, even give the terran supply tied up in some vikings, you'll get rolled hilariously easily. You're just making things up at this point, have you ever actually seen a high level zerg player switch to mass roach in the late game? Roaches suck horrifically against a fully upgraded/teched terran, that's why you never see them past the early defensive/all-in phase. Once terran actually has tech roaches become worthless, and talk about supply heavy. As for lings, ghosts actually do great dps vs. lings.
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I dont think the raven change is going to do anything
Creep change is cool however
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I am quite OK with the nerf to the Zerg spread creep, but one considerable question will we be able to spread creep on big ramps like Tal'darim Altar ? It's my main concern.
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On August 09 2012 05:45 Kamwah wrote:
I think these changes will be helpful but I also don't think they're going to answer the real problems.
- Zerg's map control is too high with Overlord Spread, Creep Spread and their units are very good at area control.
- Creep spread needs to recede faster and that's the only nerf that I think should happen to it.
- HSM is useless against Ultras and relying on Ravens against BLs is pretty meh. If there was a good transition then you'd basically see the same as PvZ where a spellcaster decides it all with a few good hits(vortex).
It's just my opinion but someones going to start an argument with me for no reason XD
You should note that with lesser radius of the creep there will be less creep to recede. I'm not sure how this change will affect but we should expect to see the creep recede slightly faster.
However, I agree that a reasonable nerf to the speed that creep recedes should be considered. It's especially annoying as you are trying to push out or when you see overlords spread creep on your 4th / 5th (I don't know why so few zerg's do it, it's really strong tactic).
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I think it's fairly obvious that Blizzard has a policy against simply reverting changes that are revealed to be mistakes. Why toy with creep tumor range when what caused the problem is the first place is the greater queen range?
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- reduce broodlord base damage
- remove stun from fungal growth and make it a 50%-75% slow
fixes zvp and zvt to make it more interesting and more forgiving.
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Ok after my initial test.
Both changes are immediately noticeable. The Ravens are as fast as Medivacs which makes it MUCH easier to poke and prod with Marines to clean up creep.
The Creep itself spreads much more slowly which is actually really noticeable on antiga considering how important getting creep to connect your third is.
Whereas prior, getting out 4 queens with 2 for creep spread was great now it's almost required to get the desired effect you would have had before with just 3 queens.
It might not really be THAT extreme but it was definitely noticeable and a pretty significant change to early game creep spread.
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On August 09 2012 06:13 GreyKnight wrote:
I dont think the raven change is going to do anything
Creep change is cool however
creep change is great. i cant wait,
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On August 09 2012 06:14 Empirimancer wrote:
I think it's fairly obvious that Blizzard has a policy against simply reverting changes that are revealed to be mistakes. Why toy with creep tumor range when what caused the problem is the first place is the greater queen range?
Bunkers offer an example of how much Blizzard doesn't mind reverting changes.
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On August 09 2012 06:14 kinglemon wrote:
- reduce broodlord base damage
- remove stun from fungal growth and make it a 50%-75% slow
fixes zvp and zvt to make it more interesting and more forgiving.
why u want that? doesnt it make sense that mushrooms stop a whole battlecruiser from moving? xD
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On August 09 2012 06:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:14 Empirimancer wrote:
I think it's fairly obvious that Blizzard has a policy against simply reverting changes that are revealed to be mistakes. Why toy with creep tumor range when what caused the problem is the first place is the greater queen range?
Bunkers offer an example of how much Blizzard doesn't mind reverting changes.
The Thor says Hi.
They have no problem reversing changes when it's to Terrans.
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On August 09 2012 06:16 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 09 2012 06:14 Empirimancer wrote:
I think it's fairly obvious that Blizzard has a policy against simply reverting changes that are revealed to be mistakes. Why toy with creep tumor range when what caused the problem is the first place is the greater queen range?
Bunkers offer an example of how much Blizzard doesn't mind reverting changes. The Thor says Hi. They have no problem reversing changes when it's to Terrans.
Poor Thors.
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On August 09 2012 06:12 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:08 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:58 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:52 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:48 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:38 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:36 Skytt wrote:On August 09 2012 05:34 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 05:28 ragz_gt wrote:
[quote]
Huh? Terran been pretty bad at energy war since ghost nerf. Unless you count mule, but then you have to count inject / chrono also. You didn't see Gumiho vs. Soulkey did you? Soulkey was practically giving Gumiho free EMP hits It's still not as hard as people think, and Gumiho was going up to 15-20 ghosts. Even if you can't get free EMPs, you can still snipe every infestor or just snipe the overseers and then cloak and go to town. The terran army can straight up kill broodlord based armies or ultralisk based armies pretty easily if there aren't any infestors to deal with, so focus on negating the infestors. People think that for some reason because snipe was nerfed vs. Broods and Ultras that ghosts are useless in the matchup (snipe was actually buffed vs. infestors), they aren't, they're just an anti-caster unit (and a really good one) rather than an army annihilator. The problem is that infestor is good against everything, and ghost is good against infestor. You can make 20 ghost to counter Zerg infestors, but what happens after infestors die? Terran can handle BL/Ultra army easily when there is no infestors, but that's also without Ghost totally kills the composition/DPS. Rest of zerg army sucks ass once the infestors are good, the infestors are literally the lynch-pin of the entire army. Take them out of the equation and everything starts falling apart. Ghosts also don't kill the composition/dps as badly as you think. Sure they aren't as high damage dealers, but they don't need to be, and you have more army supply anyway due to the mules. Plus, ghosts can still snipe, even though it does 20 less damage than it used to, after you take out the infestors, so it's not like they're completely worthless or anything after the infestors are dead. They still do 10/20(light) a pop + upgrades. You keep saying the infestor is good against everything, that's completely irrelevant, because your ghosts are stopping them entirely. It just doesn't matter what they are good against, because they're dead/useless with good ghost usage. Take ghosts and infestors completely out of the equation (assume they trade, not fair because ghosts still help after the infestors are gone but just imagine it): terran army vs. zerg army with no infestors. Terran army will win almost every time no problem. +3 Ghost DSP is 1/3 (2/3 against light) of +3 marine on a per supply bases, it's beyond bad. Terran army win will almost time against Zerg with no infestors, yes, but when you swap out 20 marine for 10 ghost (that's without considering resource/build cost), it's not on the same page. *rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway. No, I'm saying: Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless. Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can. If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG. Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance. This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once. It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already. Okay, you try a max roach army against a marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition with 10-20 ghosts mixed in and see how that goes for you, especially since you have no roach attack upgrades. Hell, even give the terran supply tied up in some vikings, you'll get rolled hilariously easily. You're just making things up at this point, have you ever actually seen a high level zerg player switch to mass roach in the late game?
Not pure roach, just the infestor supply worth of roach (or ultra, BL, or anything not infestor). Have you tried to engage a maxed out zerg army without infestor when you have a dozen ghost? It's literally like 1/3 of your supply just disappeared before engaging.
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zerg here. sometimes play t for fun. I like it. should help out my fellow terrans.
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On August 09 2012 06:14 Rokoz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:45 Kamwah wrote:
I think these changes will be helpful but I also don't think they're going to answer the real problems.
- Zerg's map control is too high with Overlord Spread, Creep Spread and their units are very good at area control.
- Creep spread needs to recede faster and that's the only nerf that I think should happen to it.
- HSM is useless against Ultras and relying on Ravens against BLs is pretty meh. If there was a good transition then you'd basically see the same as PvZ where a spellcaster decides it all with a few good hits(vortex).
It's just my opinion but someones going to start an argument with me for no reason XD You should note that with lesser radius of the creep there will be less creep to recede. I'm not sure how this change will affect but we should expect to see the creep recede slightly faster. However, I agree that a reasonable nerf to the speed that creep recedes should be considered. It's especially annoying as you are trying to push out or when you see overlords spread creep on your 4th / 5th (I don't know why so few zerg's do it, it's really strong tactic).
It's not rare to see minimaps where creep spread looks like I'm playing minesweeper on the secret ultra ultra ultra hard difficulty so while the reduces spread will slightly nerf it. It'll help though, not to be completely negative =D
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EPT
