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On July 17 2012 16:19 kazie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 15:49 pmp10 wrote:On July 17 2012 15:40 kazie wrote:
you're completely disregarding the random attack delay. BC and reaper D8 are the only 2 attacks that have a different random attack delay from the default. real attack speed of a BC is 0.1625 to 0.4125 which is 0.2875 average
probably same with d8. That doesn't change the problem that tooltip states incorrect values. tooltips are correct in that blizzard chose to state base values, and that random delays are public knowledge. you can disagree with their decision i guess. only thing i would say needs to be changed is liquipedia. it should at least have an attack speed page explaining the matter. if op went to another wiki like sc2pod, he would have known the cause of this.
Random delays doesn't seems to effect other terran units in any meaningful way, as their test results match theoretical values, I see no reason why BC and reapers should be different.
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The BC test results were pretty interesting. But isnt it more likely to be tooltip errors rather than bugs with attack speed?
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On July 17 2012 16:35 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 16:19 kazie wrote:On July 17 2012 15:49 pmp10 wrote:On July 17 2012 15:40 kazie wrote:
you're completely disregarding the random attack delay. BC and reaper D8 are the only 2 attacks that have a different random attack delay from the default. real attack speed of a BC is 0.1625 to 0.4125 which is 0.2875 average
probably same with d8. That doesn't change the problem that tooltip states incorrect values. tooltips are correct in that blizzard chose to state base values, and that random delays are public knowledge. you can disagree with their decision i guess. only thing i would say needs to be changed is liquipedia. it should at least have an attack speed page explaining the matter. if op went to another wiki like sc2pod, he would have known the cause of this. Random delays doesn't seems to effect other terran units in any meaningful way, as their test results match theoretical values, I see no reason why BC and reapers should be different.
On July 17 2012 15:40 kazie wrote:
you're completely disregarding the random attack delay. BC and reaper D8 are the only 2 attacks that have a different random attack delay from the default. real attack speed of a BC is 0.1625 to 0.4125 which is 0.2875 average
probably same with d8.
oh nvm i see you mentioned random delay at the end. the problem here is that the random delay doesnt average 0. also it is pretty small compared to majority of the units' attack speeds. BC is an extreme case because of its small attack speed value and bigger random delay resulting in a big disparity between the base value and the real value. same with D8 because of its special huge random delays
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I hope this gets fixed, maybe BC would finally be okayish ( 22% is insane, more than a +1 weapons upgrade for bio)
Needs a David Kim meme :"loses to terran on battle report, nerf BC by 22%!"
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hope they finally get rid of the random delay, it's just one small step towards wc3, where half the game was dealing with random dice rolls... it screws up terran micro so much
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On July 17 2012 16:35 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 16:19 kazie wrote:On July 17 2012 15:49 pmp10 wrote:On July 17 2012 15:40 kazie wrote:
you're completely disregarding the random attack delay. BC and reaper D8 are the only 2 attacks that have a different random attack delay from the default. real attack speed of a BC is 0.1625 to 0.4125 which is 0.2875 average
probably same with d8. That doesn't change the problem that tooltip states incorrect values. tooltips are correct in that blizzard chose to state base values, and that random delays are public knowledge. you can disagree with their decision i guess. only thing i would say needs to be changed is liquipedia. it should at least have an attack speed page explaining the matter. if op went to another wiki like sc2pod, he would have known the cause of this. Random delays doesn't seems to effect other terran units in any meaningful way, as their test results match theoretical values, I see no reason why BC and reapers should be different.
As was previously stated by another poster, most units' attack delays are +X/-X, where both values are the same. That means that the average delay is 0, and over a large number of attacks the units' DPS is unaffected.
BCs' delay is -.0625/+.1865, which means that the average delay (assuming all values are equally possible) is .0625. Given a base attack speed of 0.23, that means the actual average attack speed is 0.2925, a 21.4% increase. That roughly matches the results given by the OP.
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No wonder BCs suck!
But seriously thats messed up. To be honest I always thought the BC dps numbers seemed too high for what it actually seemed to do.
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On July 17 2012 16:53 aRyuujin wrote:
hope they finally get rid of the random delay, it's just one small step towards wc3, where half the game was dealing with random dice rolls... it screws up terran micro so much
ye i agree this is definately a huge factor and looses whole games ... also definately the reason why im not gm yet ....
-.-
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22% slower? Gosh, that's a lot.
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Wow i didnt even know about random attack delay. I always believed that sc2 was a game purely of numbers and no luck involved if controlled perfektly. I was proven wrong...
So if i battle drone vs drone i just have to "hope" that i win. This really sucks. Also this can be the deciding facor in super close marine vs marine or ling vs ling battles. Why is this even in this game?
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And what precisely is the point of the random attack delay?
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Great find, it looks pretty solid but I'd rather have someone independently confirm the results (I'll try to do it myself when I find the time): If it is really confirmed we should reach blizzard with this so they can fix the issues (most likely just update the tooltips, but one can always wish for a BC buff xD)
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On July 17 2012 17:52 Qgelfich wrote:
Wow i didnt even know about random attack delay. I always believed that sc2 was a game purely of numbers and no luck involved if controlled perfektly. I was proven wrong...
So if i battle drone vs drone i just have to "hope" that i win. This really sucks. Also this can be the deciding facor in super close marine vs marine or ling vs ling battles. Why is this even in this game?
If I remember correctly, it's so that the game looks "good". I would imagine seeing a group of 20 Marines shooting at the same rate, would look awkawrd. This isn't my personal opinion, but I remember Artosis talking about this in a gsl game a few weeks ago.
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Random delay actually explains a lot of things that's been happening to me... I go into probe vs probe battles getting a slightly faster attack off at the beginning but end up losing the fight..... thank you random delay, now I know to NEVER fight probe vs probe despite knowing the opponent's probe had the slightly slower first attack...
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they need to fix this now.
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For the guys without the editor or knowledge right now, heres a screenshot:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I42sI.jpg)
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On July 17 2012 18:36 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
Random delay actually explains a lot of things that's been happening to me... I go into probe vs probe battles getting a slightly faster attack off at the beginning but end up losing the fight..... thank you random delay, now I know to NEVER fight probe vs probe despite knowing the opponent's probe had the slightly slower first attack...
I fail to understand why we need any random factor in a strategic game. 
Also one more thing, 'Random' is sometimes f*cked up. You may spawn as a race more than 3 times in a row. That's flawed imho although there's really small chance something like this happens. Like... 1/12 to be one race 4 times in a row?
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On July 17 2012 18:53 MasterReY wrote:For the guys without the editor or knowledge right now, heres a screenshot: + Show Spoiler +
Yep, the tooltip displays period.
0.2250 + (0.1875-0.0625)/2 = 0.2875
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that's pretty huge considering the fact that SC2 is almost out for 2 years ... wondering if other untis got those DPS Problems too
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Wow I didn't know about the random delay attacks, this is quite huge...it can decide games.
Why would you have randomness in the game just so it can look "pretty", damnit Blizzard.
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EPT
