On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
Wow, talk about a jump of conclusion...
If he's really Ace then it's not strange at all. He's a guy who has win rate like 31% in PvP and almost like player no. 42 in this match up. He's like the worst PvP player in the current GSL.
It's pretty stupid to analyze the "31% win record" when like all the games are ESV weekly tournaments. It's actually shocking how ace apparently has played like 4 pvps in gsl since he has been around a while.
Anyways, it is true that almost every single bw player had to spend 1+ years in a professional team house to even make the A team, on top of most of them being high level amateur play for quite some time in respective clans (Shield, white, fou, By., etc). The biggest exception may be flash (who was still a practice partner for wemade, played multiple courage tournaments, and was obviously in the By. clan) and jaedong, who broke through with a crazy rookie year (though he did take like 12 courages to get his license or something).
I know ace isn't the greatest, I know the terran probably isn't either (even if he is pretty high, the first game was a 2 rax that clearly was underestimating shy's ability; didn't see later games), but it does say something about the mechanics of sc2 vs bw from the game design perspective exactly like Shader said.
An equivalent statement to me is that the warcraft 3 pros can switch to sc2 without too much trouble mechanically, and that wouldn't be true if the same warcraft 3 pros had switched to bw. It's not a rag on sc2, just that the game mechanics do have skill disparity asphyxiated some compared to bw, for better or for worse (namely, the pathing of units isn't shitty as anything. Most of the mechanical skill that takes years to master is fucking retarded things like reaver scarabs, and after that macro).
Positive or negative it is true about the skill disparity gap, and that's part of the game design.
edit- obviously the bw pros didn't have a good mechanics when they started as they do now, since they all improved while being progamers. But sc2 focuses much more on unit composition and I don't think anyone would dispute that. I just think it has yet to be proven that the skill ceiling for a game with more focus on unit composition can be as high. Who knows, maybe it will be something like the continuously-used poor analogy of calling starcraft "real time chess", which obviously has huge fucking skill ceiling but the skill ceiling is entirely on strategy (or the "unit composition" in this shitty analogy).
On July 10 2012 10:56 N.geNuity wrote: It's pretty stupid to analyze the "31% win record" when like all the games are ESV weekly tournaments. It's actually shocking how ace apparently has played like 4 pvps in gsl since he has been around a while.
Anyways, it is true that almost every single bw player had to spend 1+ years in a professional team house to even make the A team, on top of most of them being high level amateur play for quite some time in respective clans (Shield, white, fou, By., etc). The biggest exception may be flash (who was still a practice partner for wemade, played multiple courage tournaments, and was obviously in the By. clan) and jaedong, who broke through with a crazy rookie year (though he did take like 12 courages to get his license or something).
I know ace isn't the greatest, I know the terran probably isn't either (even if he is pretty high, the first game was a 2 rax that clearly was underestimating shy's ability; didn't see later games), but it does say something about the mechanics of sc2 vs bw from the game design perspective exactly like Shader said.
An equivalent statement to me is that the warcraft 3 pros can switch to sc2 without too much trouble mechanically, and that wouldn't be true if the same warcraft 3 pros had switched to bw. It's not a rag on sc2, just that the game mechanics do have skill disparity asphyxiated some compared to bw, for better or for worse (namely, the pathing of units isn't shitty as anything. Most of the mechanical skill that takes years to master is fucking retarded things like reaver scarabs, and after that macro).
Positive or negative it is true about the skill disparity gap, and that's part of the game design.
edit- obviously the bw pros didn't have a good mechanics when they started as they do now, since they all improved while being progamers. But sc2 focuses much more on unit composition and I don't think anyone would dispute that. I just think it has yet to be proven that the skill ceiling for a game with more focus on unit composition can be as high. Who knows, maybe it will be something like the continuously-used poor analogy of calling starcraft "real time chess", which obviously has huge fucking skill ceiling but the skill ceiling is entirely on strategy (or the "unit composition" in this shitty analogy).
The only thing that even resembled chess in SC was bw tvt
On July 10 2012 10:56 N.geNuity wrote: It's pretty stupid to analyze the "31% win record" when like all the games are ESV weekly tournaments. It's actually shocking how ace apparently has played like 4 pvps in gsl since he has been around a while.
So ESV weekly does not count into the record? Sorry, but ESV weekly is a good tournament for guaging players' skills. Many current great players (Taeja, for example) did really really well in ESV weekly and it translate into GSL results later. Shouldn't that mean a player who went 3-7 in PvP in ESV weekly does not play PvP very well? Sure it might not be GSL, but ESV is still a tournament that many players compete in seriously.
And if you want to ignore ESV that badly, then his record in GSL/GSTL is 2-5. That's 28.5% win rate. His PvP record in ESV is actually better.
Ace is a bad PvP player. I would not be surprised if he lost to other KesPA's players in PvP.
This whole thing is a bit ridiculous. Forme it feel like " Ohh we made this super secret Kespa vs GSL tournament that noone saw, and the Kespa player won, but you'll never know anything. "
The hell ?
Let's just give them time, they'll prove themselves without this kind of non sense.
On July 10 2012 10:56 N.geNuity wrote: It's pretty stupid to analyze the "31% win record" when like all the games are ESV weekly tournaments. It's actually shocking how ace apparently has played like 4 pvps in gsl since he has been around a while.
So ESV weekly does not count into the record? Sorry, but ESV weekly is a good tournament for guaging players' skills. Many current great players (Taeja, for example) did really really well in ESV weekly and it translate into GSL results later. Shouldn't that mean a player who went 3-7 in PvP in ESV weekly does not play PvP very well? Sure it might not be GSL, but ESV is still a tournament that many players compete in seriously.
And if you want to ignore ESV that badly, then his record in GSL/GSTL is 2-5. That's 28.5% win rate. His PvP record in ESV is actually better.
Ace is a bad PvP player. I would not be surprised if he lost to other KesPA's players in PvP.
On July 10 2012 10:56 N.geNuity wrote: It's pretty stupid to analyze the "31% win record" when like all the games are ESV weekly tournaments. It's actually shocking how ace apparently has played like 4 pvps in gsl since he has been around a while.
So ESV weekly does not count into the record? Sorry, but ESV weekly is a good tournament for guaging players' skills. Many current great players (Taeja, for example) did really really well in ESV weekly and it translate into GSL results later. Shouldn't that mean a player who went 3-7 in PvP in ESV weekly does not play PvP very well? Sure it might not be GSL, but ESV is still a tournament that many players compete in seriously.
And if you want to ignore ESV that badly, then his record in GSL/GSTL is 2-5. That's 28.5% win rate. His PvP record in ESV is actually better.
Ace is a bad PvP player. I would not be surprised if he lost to other KesPA's players in PvP.
why do you waste so much time dismantling the soundness of arguments?
anyways, who cares if his pvp is poor. 2 YEARS BRO. this guy (assuming its even ace) has played a long time. why is everyone trying to discredit this win? this guy who until what, 3 months ago didnt even PLAY sc2, beat TWO "gsl" players who have played the game 100% for TWO years
On July 10 2012 11:31 Noocta wrote: This whole thing is a bit ridiculous. Forme it feel like " Ohh we made this super secret Kespa vs GSL tournament that noone saw, and the Kespa player won, but you'll never know anything. "
The hell ?
Let's just give them time, they'll prove themselves without this kind of non sense.
Yup, this kinda thing is just silly. Anonymous players? Really?
When BW players start playing some real games I'll start paying attention, until then I just don't care because none of this matters.
On July 10 2012 10:56 N.geNuity wrote: It's pretty stupid to analyze the "31% win record" when like all the games are ESV weekly tournaments. It's actually shocking how ace apparently has played like 4 pvps in gsl since he has been around a while.
So ESV weekly does not count into the record? Sorry, but ESV weekly is a good tournament for guaging players' skills. Many current great players (Taeja, for example) did really really well in ESV weekly and it translate into GSL results later. Shouldn't that mean a player who went 3-7 in PvP in ESV weekly does not play PvP very well? Sure it might not be GSL, but ESV is still a tournament that many players compete in seriously.
And if you want to ignore ESV that badly, then his record in GSL/GSTL is 2-5. That's 28.5% win rate. His PvP record in ESV is actually better.
Ace is a bad PvP player. I would not be surprised if he lost to other KesPA's players in PvP.
why do you waste so much time dismantling the soundness of arguments?
anyways, who cares if his pvp is poor. 2 YEARS BRO. this guy (assuming its even ace) has played a long time. why is everyone trying to discredit this win? this guy who until what, 3 months ago didnt even PLAY sc2, beat TWO "gsl" players who have played the game 100% for TWO years
Who said I wanted to discredit his win? I did not say anything on the line like "lol, Ace sucks so this match does not count". Rather, I just find it absurd to come out and said "hey this tournament record does not count, because it's just ESV weekly" Sorry, but I don't like that kind of ignorant, especially toward the tournament that help build the scene whose organizer poured in their effort and hard work.
sHy at least prove that he was better than (supposely) AcE in that BO3. Does this mean KesPA's players will come in and rofl stompped every GSL players? No, not likely. Vice versa, if AcE won, does that mean KesPA's players stand no chance at all agaisnt GSL players in the next OSL? Maybe not, because there will always be a chance of a cream of the crop that can improve in the rate that nobody could imagine. Can we use that single BO3 to talk about skill-cap? Hell no! AcE is not good in PvP. That does not mean we can talk about skill cap and use his game as an example in this match up.
Playing the game 2 years also does not mean he has to be good in that match up, especially PvP.
All that can really be extrapolated from these results is that KeSPA players are rapidly improving and already capable of putting up a fight. That much should be good news for everyone, I think.
On July 10 2012 12:36 Djabanete wrote: All that can really be extrapolated from these results is that KeSPA players are rapidly improving and already capable of putting up a fight. That much should be good news for everyone, I think.
Well sure Shy looked decent, but did you see that KeSPA zerg? Didn't look like rapid improvement to me. He looked bad.
Grats to the people who play an RTS game for a living doing well on another RTS game. Grats to the people who've been playing the other RTS game long than their competition did. I saw nothing that impressed me from either side last night and thus I will not draw any conclusions about the general skill level of either side.
(And side note, those were some of the worst PvPs ive ever seen. Game one was beyond terrible)
On July 10 2012 10:56 N.geNuity wrote: It's pretty stupid to analyze the "31% win record" when like all the games are ESV weekly tournaments. It's actually shocking how ace apparently has played like 4 pvps in gsl since he has been around a while.
So ESV weekly does not count into the record? Sorry, but ESV weekly is a good tournament for guaging players' skills. Many current great players (Taeja, for example) did really really well in ESV weekly and it translate into GSL results later. Shouldn't that mean a player who went 3-7 in PvP in ESV weekly does not play PvP very well? Sure it might not be GSL, but ESV is still a tournament that many players compete in seriously.
And if you want to ignore ESV that badly, then his record in GSL/GSTL is 2-5. That's 28.5% win rate. His PvP record in ESV is actually better.
Ace is a bad PvP player. I would not be surprised if he lost to other KesPA's players in PvP.
why do you waste so much time dismantling the soundness of arguments?
anyways, who cares if his pvp is poor. 2 YEARS BRO. this guy (assuming its even ace) has played a long time. why is everyone trying to discredit this win? this guy who until what, 3 months ago didnt even PLAY sc2, beat TWO "gsl" players who have played the game 100% for TWO years
Who said I wanted to discredit his win? I did not say anything on the line like "lol, Ace sucks so this match does not count". Rather, I just find it absurd to come out and said "hey this tournament record does not count, because it's just ESV weekly"
I didnt mean for it to sound that way but I did word that bad. It's more that people were throwing that 31.5% which is based on a very (surprisingly in ace's case) small sample size is what I was trying to say--that's the same criticism I have for people that shit on sc2 pros who only played like 5 games in brood war/started to get on A teams. Didnt want to take away anything from esv weekly either.
just as this sample size is only 2 bo3's too (but admit I draw conclusions obv; it's fun to sometimes).
EPT
Ace then it's not strange at all. He's a guy who has win rate like 31% in PvP and almost like player no. 42 in this match up. He's like the worst PvP player in the current GSL. 
Tiger
