On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
as much as i like to bash on sc2 being a terrible game i'd attribute it to the stricter training regime of kespa teams and the fact that 90% of gsl code s players were b-teamers or worse in broodwar
An yet many good BW programmers when transferred over to SC2 didn't do so well so your comment has about zero ground. BW elitism really needs to die out seriously both games are really great games but the elitism many BW fans feel is just completely baseless and false in many instances. Such as your statement here. Nada was great in the BW days but failed to win much of anything in SC2 hmmmm that alone disproves your theory there as does July not really winning much as well, shall I go on? Compare the SC2 careers of MVP,MMA, an MC vs that of a Nada or July. It's not even funny how far apart they are so quit it with the elitism seriously.
You are seriously clueless if you mention NaDa and July, who were several years past their prime BW wise when they switched. They were barely able to keep up with B-team players (unless they went on some rampage like July during his last OSL win). Yet NaDa consistently placed top8 in GSL while attending university.
On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
as much as i like to bash on sc2 being a terrible game i'd attribute it to the stricter training regime of kespa teams and the fact that 90% of gsl code s players were b-teamers or worse in broodwar
An yet many good BW programmers when transferred over to SC2 didn't do so well so your comment has about zero ground. BW elitism really needs to die out seriously both games are really great games but the elitism many BW fans feel is just completely baseless and false in many instances. Such as your statement here. Nada was great in the BW days but failed to win much of anything in SC2 hmmmm that alone disproves your theory there as does July not really winning much as well, shall I go on? Compare the SC2 careers of MVP,MMA, an MC vs that of a Nada or July. It's not even funny how far apart they are so quit it with the elitism seriously.
Without wanting to get into the whole discussion of BW player superiority, this is a misconception I've seen a lot from people who are new to the scene. Boxer, July and Nada are the three BW legends to have switched over to Sc2, yes, but don't take legends to mean the best players.
BW has developed at an incredibly fast pace over the last 10 years - while Boxer was the best player back in 2002 and we'll forever love him for how good he was then and how much he still managed to achieve when he was already falling behind, he is far from the best BW player to have switched over. The same goes for July and to a lesser extent Nada. And let's face it, these are old players - it's very noticeable that some of them don't have the drive anymore. Nada has his Nada Mall, university studies and military service looming over him. Tester and Fruitdealer, two of the better progamers to switch over early, just wanted get as much money as possible out of Sc2 before having to leave. Consequently they were really good in the beta and early release, possibly the best 2 players in the world, but then fell behind rapidly.
If you actually look at the players to have switched over early and how they're doing now, there's a very evident correlation between BW and Sc2 skill. It's not perfect and sometimes people we think are going to do great don't, but it's plainly there to see for anyone who's followed both scenes.
On July 09 2012 19:50 niteReloaded wrote: Knowing how sleazy GOM is in trying to artificially create things, they probably handpicked the best performers in a MU for Kespa players, say a really good PvTer, vs a GSL guy who has a terrible TvP.
Suddenly: "oh, Kespa players are catching up sooo fast".
Why the hell would GOM want it to seem like Kespa is catching up? Before you rag on a great company who has done a ton of things to work out for us non Koreans perhaps you should think on your damn logic, or lack thereof.
On July 09 2012 19:50 niteReloaded wrote: Knowing how sleazy GOM is in trying to artificially create things, they probably handpicked the best performers in a MU for Kespa players, say a really good PvTer, vs a GSL guy who has a terrible TvP.
Suddenly: "oh, Kespa players are catching up sooo fast".
Man your dumb
Kespa and Gom compete for broadcast space. Gom would want to show the kespa players arent good to draw more sponsors to theyre practically sponsor-less team. It is a common idea in Korea that the kespa players will stomp the GSL players and now would be the perfect time for them to prove the opposite.
Gom are weasels. Corporate version of attention whores. They'll do anything to get views which equal money.
Hence persistent foreigner seeds that don't really deserve it (Nani proved an exception).
Kespa vs Gom is a rivalry. Rivalry sells. A couple of terrible matches make viewers go away. Good matches make people tell their friends about the show.
You're dumb if you think Kespa players wont eventually compete in Gom leagues, and vice versa. If Kespa players turn out terrible, the charge is lessened, the interest is lessened.
I'm 100% convinced Gom is praying that BW pros catch up as soon as possible, because that means dozens of thousands fanboys and fangirls switching their attention from BW to SC2.
Umm so giving seeds to players makes them weasels? You can argue both ways as to whether it was deserved or not but one of their reasons for giving them the seeds is to help promote the non Korean scene and encourage players to come over there to play when they otherwise wouldn't. GOM has done a ton of good things for SC2 and I personally find it kind of offensive for you to call them weasels.
Rivalrys do sell, however, GOM is in a position where they want their players to look better. They want to win the competition between companies. Kespa doing good is good for them but they want them to only do so good, such that GOM would win out in the long run.
I never said anything about Kespa players not competing in GOM leagues or Kespa players never being good so your comment is retarded. Dozens of thousands? Really?
On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
as much as i like to bash on sc2 being a terrible game i'd attribute it to the stricter training regime of kespa teams and the fact that 90% of gsl code s players were b-teamers or worse in broodwar
An yet many good BW programmers when transferred over to SC2 didn't do so well so your comment has about zero ground. BW elitism really needs to die out seriously both games are really great games but the elitism many BW fans feel is just completely baseless and false in many instances. Such as your statement here. Nada was great in the BW days but failed to win much of anything in SC2 hmmmm that alone disproves your theory there as does July not really winning much as well, shall I go on? Compare the SC2 careers of MVP,MMA, an MC vs that of a Nada or July. It's not even funny how far apart they are so quit it with the elitism seriously.
nada and july were both terrible as terrible as mma or mc by 2010, so stop using them as an example.
On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
as much as i like to bash on sc2 being a terrible game i'd attribute it to the stricter training regime of kespa teams and the fact that 90% of gsl code s players were b-teamers or worse in broodwar
An yet many good BW programmers when transferred over to SC2 didn't do so well so your comment has about zero ground. BW elitism really needs to die out seriously both games are really great games but the elitism many BW fans feel is just completely baseless and false in many instances. Such as your statement here. Nada was great in the BW days but failed to win much of anything in SC2 hmmmm that alone disproves your theory there as does July not really winning much as well, shall I go on? Compare the SC2 careers of MVP,MMA, an MC vs that of a Nada or July. It's not even funny how far apart they are so quit it with the elitism seriously.
Here we go again boys. Kids who think nada and boxer were the best sc1 players at the end of 2010 and who also think mvp mma and mc came out of the blue to sc2.
my lesson of the day:
nada and boxer sucked at the end of their sc1 careers, boxer more than nada.
mvp mma and mc were all sc1 players, they did not just drop out of the skies and lose their rts virginity to sc2.
On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
as much as i like to bash on sc2 being a terrible game i'd attribute it to the stricter training regime of kespa teams and the fact that 90% of gsl code s players were b-teamers or worse in broodwar
An yet many good BW programmers when transferred over to SC2 didn't do so well so your comment has about zero ground. BW elitism really needs to die out seriously both games are really great games but the elitism many BW fans feel is just completely baseless and false in many instances. Such as your statement here. Nada was great in the BW days but failed to win much of anything in SC2 hmmmm that alone disproves your theory there as does July not really winning much as well, shall I go on? Compare the SC2 careers of MVP,MMA, an MC vs that of a Nada or July. It's not even funny how far apart they are so quit it with the elitism seriously.
First off I think SC2 is a great game, but you didn't give the best example of how BW players aren't good at SC2. MVP, MMA, and MC were all on professional brood war teams.
Go onto the team liquid player database and start reading down the list of top ranked players. 1. Symbol - Pro BW player 2. Taeja 3. Squirtle - Pro BW player 4. DongRaeGu - Played BW competitively but didn't go pro 5. Coca 6. Life 7. MC - Pro BW Player 8. Nestea - Pro BW Player 9. MarineKing - Pro BW player 10. MVP - Pro BW player
Only 3 out of the top 10 Korean SC2 players didn't play Brood War competitively. Given that this is true, in what way is expecting the players who absolutely crushed these people with ease in Brood War (recently, not 5 years ago like NaDa) to be successful "BW elitism" ? I don't know why people don't believe that Brood War is still harder than SC2 at the level people play it (though I do believe that SC2 is quickly becoming as difficult to play). Most current SC2 pros are likely not fast enough to compete with top Brood War pros in a year or so IMO.
LoL, BW elitism??? I think any TL member who's been here before sc2 existed is laughing their balls off. Kespa players are coming to steal all the sc2 lunch money. Guess what, all those awesome dominate gomtv korean pros... almost all of them are ex BW pros and maybe a handful of them were competitors in any of the televised BW leagues at the time when gomtv started up. Aside from mvp I can't think of any scary bw pros who have jumped ship yet, forgg, ie fin comes close, but I mostly stick him in the same category as nada/july/boxer, oldies who are fan favourites, but past their prime.
I have zero doubt 1 year from now the top 10 sc2 players in the world will be a who's who list of BW players who swapped in 2012.
On July 11 2012 10:53 EAGER-beaver wrote: LoL, BW elitism??? I think any TL member who's been here before sc2 existed is laughing their balls off. Kespa players are coming to steal all the sc2 lunch money. Guess what, all those awesome dominate gomtv korean pros... almost all of them are ex BW pros and maybe a handful of them were competitors in any of the televised BW leagues at the time when gomtv started up. Aside from mvp I can't think of any scary bw pros who have jumped ship yet, forgg, ie fin comes close, but I mostly stick him in the same category as nada/july/boxer, oldies who are fan favourites, but past their prime.
I have zero doubt 1 year from now the top 10 sc2 players in the world will be a who's who list of BW players who swapped in 2012.
you put question marks after elitism, then proceed to spew out rest of your garbage??
Say, I heard Khaldor casted some of the matches on his stream, are there vods of this? I checked his stream but I cannot find anything related to this (last few things was this mmo and zotac cups).
On July 11 2012 10:53 EAGER-beaver wrote: LoL, BW elitism??? I think any TL member who's been here before sc2 existed is laughing their balls off. Kespa players are coming to steal all the sc2 lunch money. Guess what, all those awesome dominate gomtv korean pros... almost all of them are ex BW pros and maybe a handful of them were competitors in any of the televised BW leagues at the time when gomtv started up. Aside from mvp I can't think of any scary bw pros who have jumped ship yet, forgg, ie fin comes close, but I mostly stick him in the same category as nada/july/boxer, oldies who are fan favourites, but past their prime.
I have zero doubt 1 year from now the top 10 sc2 players in the world will be a who's who list of BW players who swapped in 2012.
Some of GSL players will stay strong as usual: DRG, HerO, Byun, Genius, MC, Squirtle, Taeja, Coca, MKP,IM whole Team,etc
The current BW pros, Flash, Jaedong etc, are way better than Nada, July and Boxer, and I'm talking about when they were in their prime. My belief is that the Kespa players will definitely do well because
A) Ex- BW pro's do seem to have an advantage
B) Talent
And most importantly, their work ethic. BW pros train extremely hard.
On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
as much as i like to bash on sc2 being a terrible game i'd attribute it to the stricter training regime of kespa teams and the fact that 90% of gsl code s players were b-teamers or worse in broodwar
An yet many good BW programmers when transferred over to SC2 didn't do so well so your comment has about zero ground. BW elitism really needs to die out seriously both games are really great games but the elitism many BW fans feel is just completely baseless and false in many instances. Such as your statement here. Nada was great in the BW days but failed to win much of anything in SC2 hmmmm that alone disproves your theory there as does July not really winning much as well, shall I go on? Compare the SC2 careers of MVP,MMA, an MC vs that of a Nada or July. It's not even funny how far apart they are so quit it with the elitism seriously.
Yet another player who knows nothing about the BW scene yet still feels arrogant enough to comment on it.
On July 10 2012 08:34 ShadeR wrote: It doesn't bode well for SC2 at all if a group of players putting in at most 80% of their effort into SC2 in a relatively short period of time can edge out established players putting in 100%. These results continue to give credence to the claim that SC2 in it's current state will not allow skill to translate into victory as well as BW did. Skill disparity is asphyxiated by the games own mechanics.
as much as i like to bash on sc2 being a terrible game i'd attribute it to the stricter training regime of kespa teams and the fact that 90% of gsl code s players were b-teamers or worse in broodwar
An yet many good BW programmers when transferred over to SC2 didn't do so well so your comment has about zero ground. BW elitism really needs to die out seriously both games are really great games but the elitism many BW fans feel is just completely baseless and false in many instances. Such as your statement here. Nada was great in the BW days but failed to win much of anything in SC2 hmmmm that alone disproves your theory there as does July not really winning much as well, shall I go on? Compare the SC2 careers of MVP,MMA, an MC vs that of a Nada or July. It's not even funny how far apart they are so quit it with the elitism seriously.
Yet another player who knows nothing about the BW scene yet still feels arrogant enough to comment on it.
I agree with him damn IT elitists hyping up BW programmers.
On July 12 2012 17:41 lisward wrote: The current BW pros, Flash, Jaedong etc, are way better than Nada, July and Boxer, and I'm talking about when they were in their prime. My belief is that the Kespa players will definitely do well because
A) Ex- BW pro's do seem to have an advantage
B) Talent
And most importantly, their work ethic. BW pros train extremely hard.
No one argues that they'll do well The argument focuses around whether or not they will essentially be the entire class of top players which some BW elites claim and is highly unlikely to be true
On July 12 2012 16:42 JustPassingBy wrote: Say, I heard Khaldor casted some of the matches on his stream, are there vods of this? I checked his stream but I cannot find anything related to this (last few things was this mmo and zotac cups).
No, it was restreamed officially through the GOM TV twitch account, with Khaldor commentating over the korean stream. The only VODs available are the korean ones.
On July 09 2012 19:50 niteReloaded wrote: Knowing how sleazy GOM is in trying to artificially create things, they probably handpicked the best performers in a MU for Kespa players, say a really good PvTer, vs a GSL guy who has a terrible TvP.
Suddenly: "oh, Kespa players are catching up sooo fast".
Why the hell would GOM want it to seem like Kespa is catching up? Before you rag on a great company who has done a ton of things to work out for us non Koreans perhaps you should think on your damn logic, or lack thereof.
On July 09 2012 19:52 gk_ender wrote:
On July 09 2012 19:50 niteReloaded wrote: Knowing how sleazy GOM is in trying to artificially create things, they probably handpicked the best performers in a MU for Kespa players, say a really good PvTer, vs a GSL guy who has a terrible TvP.
Suddenly: "oh, Kespa players are catching up sooo fast".
Man your dumb
Kespa and Gom compete for broadcast space. Gom would want to show the kespa players arent good to draw more sponsors to theyre practically sponsor-less team. It is a common idea in Korea that the kespa players will stomp the GSL players and now would be the perfect time for them to prove the opposite.
Gom are weasels. Corporate version of attention whores. They'll do anything to get views which equal money.
Hence persistent foreigner seeds that don't really deserve it (Nani proved an exception).
Kespa vs Gom is a rivalry. Rivalry sells. A couple of terrible matches make viewers go away. Good matches make people tell their friends about the show.
You're dumb if you think Kespa players wont eventually compete in Gom leagues, and vice versa. If Kespa players turn out terrible, the charge is lessened, the interest is lessened.
I'm 100% convinced Gom is praying that BW pros catch up as soon as possible, because that means dozens of thousands fanboys and fangirls switching their attention from BW to SC2.
Umm so giving seeds to players makes them weasels? You can argue both ways as to whether it was deserved or not but one of their reasons for giving them the seeds is to help promote the non Korean scene and encourage players to come over there to play when they otherwise wouldn't. GOM has done a ton of good things for SC2 and I personally find it kind of offensive for you to call them weasels.
I think GOM is doing their 'good deeds' for foreigners for money they get from GSL tickets. You think they just do it to help out people. OK, different opinions. I would call you naive, you would call me ... a cynic maybe?
My point is that they're undermining the integrity of their competition and belittleing the efforts of young, aspiring Korean players by letting foreigners get a free pass. I don't like that so I call them weasels. What if the NBA decided to host some Asian basketball team that won a local league, to "help them out"? And the Asian team gets repeatedly stomped. And a more deserving American team has to drop out because of them. (Naniwa is an exception)
Rivalrys do sell, however, GOM is in a position where they want their players to look better. They want to win the competition between companies. Kespa doing good is good for them but they want them to only do so good, such that GOM would win out in the long run.
I never said anything about Kespa players not competing in GOM leagues or Kespa players never being good so your comment is retarded. Dozens of thousands? Really?
Why would they want their players to look better? They don't get anything out of it. Ego doesn't play such a big part in business, money is #1. They want Kespa to do GREAT, because Kespa players will play in GOM leagues! If Kespa players do great in these showmatches, it hypes every next event their players attend including the Gom leagues.
Dozens of thousands? Who knows, maybe, maybe a little less. A few thousands at least, so I don't think I overestimated too much.
it doesn't take a genius to know that flash and jaedong and the others are going to dominate sc2 in a matter of a half year to a year. They're faster, they are more accurate, they work harder, they've got better decision making (eventually),........ than all the current sc2 pro's. There's a reason why these guys were the top notch of bw, miles ahead of the people who switched from bw to sc2 to come and dominate it. People like MC aren't going to disappear. It's people below that, which are going to disappear from the actual scene. People like MC etc have more of a chance now because sc2 requires a lot less mechanical skills like micro. Do you know how godlike you have to be to fight at 3 places at once, while macroing your entire bases by single handedly selection every barracks and telling it to train a marine while getting every scv every x seconds from your command centers and telling it to mine while thinking of everything strategy related?
GSL fanboys have their opinions, kespa fanboys have their opinions. I'm just sharing my opinion, no reason to get your panties in a hose over it. We'll see what eventually happens, but this is my prediction.
EPT
