EPTNo worries of my units clumping up.
Modified Movement Test - Page 20
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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. | ||
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stfouri
Finland272 Posts
No worries of my units clumping up. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
But when you get down to it, this single component of the game's movement behavior puts us in this bizarre scenario where players in games are desperately trying to keep their units out of a deathball, but as soon as they right click anywhere the armies automatically clump up into giant balls of death. And they have to be manually maneuvered back to something resembling what they had originally wanted. And you have Blizzard standing there going "good god, when will they figure out an effective, spread out playstyle! Let's help them, with units that just turn off next to other units- or wait, time bombs- or wait, what if 22 range?" They even stated that the balance changes meant to discourage mass Thors, weren't really a gameplay or balance decision- the problem was that everything was too clumped up to see. Another interesting issue, is that while this being implemented would obviously break some units, most of all Marines, they would be about 10 times easier to rebalance after that, and marine splitting, a very basic yet difficult action, would be easier. I know that sounds like heresy, but it would remove the huge, gaping, ridiculous gap that exists between the Tiny Gods that top Koreans use, and the frustrating AoE Fodder they represent to players from beginner and even up to decent intermediate level. This would make the game more fun for people at all levels--- and don't worry, marine splits will still happen, because balled units have higher damage output but less AoE survivability. This movement change would simply make splitting and arranging units less mechanical, and more tactical. Best of all, armies are bigger looking, badder looking, and easier to make out. Imagine the big pushes cross map towards the opponents base, units striding instead of hugging, dust/footprints trailing behind individually. The armies simply look and feel so much more impressive, it's worth it just for that. | ||
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Cocoba
Canada352 Posts
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densha
United States797 Posts
1) As we see at the highest level of play, SC2 has become a very well developed game. Most matchups are very dynamic with a lot of back-and-forth. Yes, some viable strats for each race involve building up to a doom army, but there is a lot of action up to that point in most cases. I would also argue that doom armies/death balls are much more about composition (unit design) than pathing. 2) Unit clumping is actually proving to be one of those AI quirks that skilled players are increasingly able to fight against. While Protoss admittedly don't ever seem to need to split their units, Terran and even Zerg need to. For Terran the situations are obvious and the split micro is basically required at pro level. For Zerg, imagine a Z who comes along who can skillfully split banes to counteract bio splits and tank AoE. Splitting broods against mothership and spreading out units against other AoE is also increasingly important. I think removing that kind of anti-clumping micro by introducing what amounts to "formations" would be the antithesis of what StarCraft is. It would really reduce the skill involved in bio and baneling micro just for one example. And if it applies to air units? Well, just imagine the a-move broodlord armies that makes possible, right? No, this would not be good for the game. | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:21 stfouri wrote: This would make playing against banelings soo much easier. Just spread your units and a-move once you see them coming. No worries of my units clumping up. it doesnt work like that. at all. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:37 densha wrote: I don't think such a huge change to the game is necessary at this point for a couple of reasons. 1) As we see at the highest level of play, SC2 has become a very well developed game. Most matchups are very dynamic with a lot of back-and-forth. Yes, some viable strats for each race involve building up to a doom army, but there is a lot of action up to that point in most cases. I would also argue that doom armies/death balls are much more about composition (unit design) than pathing. 2) Unit clumping is actually proving to be one of those AI quirks that skilled players are increasingly able to fight against. While Protoss admittedly don't ever seem to need to split their units, Terran and even Zerg need to. For Terran the situations are obvious and the split micro is basically required at pro level. For Zerg, imagine a Z who comes along who can skillfully split banes to counteract bio splits and tank AoE. Splitting broods against mothership and spreading out units against other AoE is also increasingly important. I think removing that kind of anti-clumping micro by introducing what amounts to "formations" would be the antithesis of what StarCraft is. It would really reduce the skill involved in bio and baneling micro just for one example. And if it applies to air units? Well, just imagine the a-move broodlord armies that makes possible, right? No, this would not be good for the game. You'd honestly still need to do 80-90% as much micro for bio and banelings, you just wouldn't have to fight with your own units. Most of splitting involves grabbing groups and running back, running forward with them. And a permanently spread out army becomes very vulnerable to just about anything besides banelings and spell AoE. Players will want to clump mid battle, and then they'll have to do exactly the same thing they do now, split their units during a fight. The units just won't be actively sabotaging them as soon as they move. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Would like to test it myself tho, any EU map with this? | ||
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Aelfric
Turkey1496 Posts
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:50 Aelfric wrote: You guys should save your breaths, everyone can easily figure out that this will never make it into the game. Gameplay is way, way more similar than you think. | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:43 LavaLava wrote: You'd honestly still need to do 80-90% as much micro for bio and banelings, you just wouldn't have to fight with your own units. Most of splitting involves grabbing groups and running back, running forward with them. And a permanently spread out army becomes very vulnerable to just about anything besides banelings and spell AoE. Players will want to clump mid battle, and then they'll have to do exactly the same thing they do now, split their units during a fight. The units just won't be actively sabotaging them as soon as they move. You're just making the change sound completely unnecessary then. Units that actively hate you is very StarCraft and the micro that emerges from such things is part of the overall character of the game. You should not be able to micro your units BEFORE battle, when there's no pressure or skill involved. And even if you disagree with that, you should still see how unit clumping has emerged as a defining characteristic of SC2. Would you have Blizzard go back and fix Dragoon pathing in BW? | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:53 LavaLava wrote: Gameplay is way, way more similar than you think. Well, isn't that exactly why it will never make it to the live game? It changes barely anything and what it does change seems to reduce the need to initially micro in battle which reduces skill and overall excitement when spectating. | ||
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Super_bricklayer
France104 Posts
It's only on move commend that they keep their formation, people should test it before seeing a ezmode that make your army fight perfectly. It just allow some more tactical move that could be useful in certain scenario ( sometimes you'll better clump your units together, sometimes not ) which is cool, it's could be a new tool that allow better player to shine a little more than usual. I'm not even sure that AOE need a buff actually, we need some test. I don't understand the complain about balance too, guess what there will be a bunch of new unit that will completely change the balance again, i see nobody here saying that they don't want new units because of that ( well i see complain about design but that's an other point ^^ ). Even if we need to do a beta and some patch along the way, i don't understand how it's different with such a proposition, it makes the game better, more rich, more tactical and it looks so much better. | ||
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GeNeSiDe
United Kingdom354 Posts
It's all too common to perfectly split your army only to have them all ball up again the second you need to fight. | ||
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Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:57 densha wrote: Well, isn't that exactly why it will never make it to the live game? It changes barely anything and what it does change seems to reduce the need to initially micro in battle which reduces skill and overall excitement when spectating. Especially in battle you still need to micro, if you a-move your units pre-split, everything gets clumped up again when facing an opponent. The only thing this mod does, is that it will keep your formation when you normally move your units around. I think this will increase the intuitivity of moving your units, and gives players more reason to split in the first place, instead of your units clumping up after every move. grammar edit* | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:55 densha wrote: You're just making the change sound completely unnecessary then. Units that actively hate you is very StarCraft and the micro that emerges from such things is part of the overall character of the game. You should not be able to micro your units BEFORE battle, when there's no pressure or skill involved. And even if you disagree with that, you should still see how unit clumping has emerged as a defining characteristic of SC2. Would you have Blizzard go back and fix Dragoon pathing in BW? The argument you're making is a little bit "multiple building select" or "12 units" here. This change removes a problem where players can't directly control units, and have to perform actions to adjust for the AI that is actually telling their army what to do. When you can click between units and clump them, or click away from units and have them move in a straight line, it means you have actual manual control over what your army does. Autoclump is pure annoyance, and it's caused every single AoE attack and spell to go from normal sized to minuscule, and damage has had to be reduced tremendously. Area denial barely exists anymore. Units are allowed and forced to compress as close as they can, which increases damage output, shortens battles, and simplifies many games to one or two 5-15 second engagements. If it was feasible to keep units apart, the threat of stronger AoE would keep them apart, lower the DPS of armies, and create much more interesting, scrappy, and extended battles. That's what makes it worth arguing about. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On July 04 2012 17:57 densha wrote: Well, isn't that exactly why it will never make it to the live game? It changes barely anything and what it does change seems to reduce the need to initially micro in battle which reduces skill and overall excitement when spectating. It makes it way, way more exciting to watch. Look at the video. Units have presence, they look cooler, you can actually see them, count them, and appreciate them. They don't have to die as quickly, which means exciting battles happen far more often. It makes potshots easier, and could create a constant combat presence on the map. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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densha
United States797 Posts
On July 04 2012 18:18 LavaLava wrote: The argument you're making is a little bit "multiple building select" or "12 units" here. This change removes a problem where players can't directly control units, and have to perform actions to adjust for the AI that is actually telling their army what to do. When you can click between units and clump them, or click away from units and have them move in a straight line, it means you have actual manual control over what your army does. Autoclump is pure annoyance, and it's caused every single AoE attack and spell to go from normal sized to minuscule, and damage has had to be reduced tremendously. Area denial barely exists anymore. Units are allowed and forced to compress as close as they can, which increases damage output, shortens battles, and simplifies many games to one or two 5-15 second engagements. If it was feasible to keep units apart, the threat of stronger AoE would keep them apart, lower the DPS of armies, and create much more interesting, scrappy, and extended battles. That's what makes it worth arguing about. 1) There is no problem with controlling units. You click a place, units go there. If that's bad, you micro out of it. 2) If AoE has already been balanced in light of the current AI, what's the point of changing how the AI acts? Should all AoE be changed again? 3) You don't solve any real problems. If you think "many games" are only one or two engagements, you're watching too much Proleague and not enough GSL/GSTL. You're arguing like it's 2010 and the metagame has matured wonderfully since then. Also, apparently people that have tested this are still saying a-move clumps units and you still have to split in battle just like how the game is now... doesn't that completely nullify your entire last paragraph? Again, it solves no "problems" but introduces new ones. | ||
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