EPTOn June 24 2012 20:09 RvB wrote:
Why are we still using IPL as an organizer who is in the red... Ofc they're in the fucking red they started their tournament 1 year ago every fucking company runs in the red their first year.. If they don't run break even in 3 years or so then you can start taking them as an example not now...
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On June 24 2012 19:55 snailz wrote:
you two, please carry on, good dicussion
also, Virgil, you do seem a little biased. just because you say you know something, and you're a well known member of a community, doesn't make you right. put some proof in your arguments, because common sense actually implies that every other organization but mlg (including ipl-that-is-so-in-the-red) has a better bussines model, otherwise ppv would stay, mlg would have bigger prize pool, etc.
on a side note, the fact mlg choose to go to expensive new york, to fly in players, etc doesnt actually prove they're doing it better, it just shows they made a poor bussines decision and took a risk they shouldn't have. shoving ppv down peoples throats to make it work was another failiure on its own. meanwhile, dreamhack is owning it up with their production value, and im really curious to see if they are satisfied financially... i think they dicussed it on the GD show but i fail to make time for the show
On June 24 2012 13:10 Scootaloo wrote:
OK, so as you provide no source your statements about IPL being the biggest money sink are just meaningless.
I don't think you understand how a league works, talking about breaking even and business models is all fun but you seem to forget that at the end of the day it's all about funding, if IPL and Dreamhack can do their job based on ad revenue and sponsorship that means when Sundance says "If PPV fails E-sports is dead." or "E-sports can't grow without PPV." he is either, dumb, lying or worse at his job then the guys who run the aforementioned leagues.
It's great how your big buds with Sundance, it makes it easy for you to forget that when he came up on LO3 and SotG and had his "I get it" tantrums he was directly lying to the fans, not even giving their opinion the least consideration, thinking of us as retards who could be easily manipulated into buying a overpriced product.
Now, you might have known him beforehand, but for most of us this was our first introduction to the man, I'd seen his face before, but he's just a CEO, not someone who the public is actually supposed to be in close contact with.
I never suggested they start with the same amount of money, but you're suggesting MLG is financially doing great compared with IPL, when motherfucking Sundance was the one who first begged the people to buy his Gold passes, and after that he invented the Arena and did another begging round across the community, or rather threatening, he wasn't just offering a product, he was threatening that if it didn't work himself, and E-sports along with him would go down.
You league A & B examples are broken, Dreamhack doesn't charge a damn cent, has massive prize pools (higher then the rather low 5k for a normal MLG) and has at many times broken regular MLG viewerships, and just straight up destroyed those of MLG Arena's, I have no doubt you consider MLG to be your favorite league, but personally I've had much more memorable moments at Dreamhacks, and yes, I did watch the Arena's, all of them.
It's amusing how you keep using the term naive when you can't see someones real motives because he was friendly to you when you met him. And your final line just compares IPL to MLG, if you add Dreamhack to the equation, once again it doesn't work.
Ergo: Sundance is a liar or worse at his job then the CEO's of IPL and Dreamhack.
On June 24 2012 10:06 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I can't be bothered to go find the source, but you're welcome to. David Ting's long term goal is to make IPL break even. I get the idea that IPL is in the red because I know IPL is in the red. I don't think you understand how leagues work. For a league to be a long term self sustaining entity they have to make a profit somewhere. Currently MLG is experimenting with finding exactly what that business model is. Frankly, I applaud them for that. Sure, it means taking a lot of flak from less informed members of the community, and sure it might not make them the most popular organization in some peoples eyes, but I can guarantee you as soon as MLG does find a successful business model, IPL will be right behind them in implementing it. I'm not defending a company from being greedy, I'm defending a great guy who tries hard to make eSports this financially viable thing who's actually a brilliant person and is really passionate about what he does.
Sundance is probably one of the nicest people I've had the pleasure of meeting during my time in eSports, and that's why I get so angry when people portray him as this evil corporate money grabbing scumbag.
I never said IPL spends more money than MLG, I said IPL has a worse bottom line than MLG. I can't believe you're naive enough to think they both start with the same amount of money.
How did you think this works? League A charges less money for HD, less money for spectator passes, less money for player passes, and gets less attendance than League B. You still think League A is the better business model?
Meanwhile League B flies players in from all across the globe, comps them hotels and meals, creates an entirely new tournament dynamic, and adds good prize money on top of that.
You don't seem to understand the difference between a self sustaining organization that's able to bring in large amounts of venture capital because of a solid, somewhat profitable business model and a money sink with a huge corporate back pocket.
On June 24 2012 09:51 Scootaloo wrote:
Actually according to the Executives with David Ting it was all his own idea and initiative, whether they are a sponsor or owner is irrelevant in this case, they pay for a bunch of people to get their brand name out. And they are successfull at it, y'know, this is how advertising works.
I don't understand where you get the idea that IPL is heavily in the red, it's advertisement money, it's supposed to be spent, or for that matter that IPL spends more of it then MLG, you got any numbers to back this up or this this just guesstimating based on vague statements from Sundance?
Never talked to Sundance in person ofcourse, nor would I want to, he seems pretty pompous and unable to listen to a opinion that conflicts with his own if we're to take any interview about PPV as a basis. "I get it, I get it."
Funny how you try to speak about naivity when you're trying to defend a COMPANY from being greedy, you know, that basic thing that 99% of all companies are foccused on? Clearly you need to go to the real world more often.
On June 24 2012 09:34 VirgilSC2 wrote:
First of all, MLG has better sponsors than IPL, that's pretty much a fact. You should probably do some research.
IGN does not sponsor IPL, IGN IS IPL. IGN didn't say, "Hey, look at this cool league they're starting, we should sponsor it!" they said "Hey, lets get into this eSports thing and start our own league" David Ting, before IPL, was an employee at IGN. MLG also has the advantage of bringing in pure VC investments. I don't understand what you don't get about IPL being in the red horribly and MLG not even being close to that bad.
You're "inclined to believe" he doesn't care about SC2? Have you ever actually had a conversation with the guy?
The naivety of some people on this forum astounds me, just because you perceive MLG as the bad guy and IPL as the good guy doesn't mean that IPL is actually the better business model.
On June 24 2012 09:18 Scootaloo wrote:
I think you miss the point though, IPL being a money sink is not a problem as it's paid for by the sponsors, mainly IGN, viewers are worth this lost money according to the sponsors.
I don't get where you get the impression IPL is the biggest moneysink, MLG seems to spend money like crazy (even on the LO3 where they interviewed Sundance about PPV Wheat and Scoots point this out) where they could easily cut corners if they cared enough.
Seems to me one of the major problems of MLG is lack of sponsors, whereas IPL managed to create an incredible deal with IGN or the less stable GSL Pepsi one, MLG has no such backing, something which I can only really attribute to Sundance, as it is his job to do so or hire someone capable of it.
And about Ting's public image, you're just projecting your desire for everything to be PPV because Sundance told you that was the only way to make this viable, just after Sundance completely destroyed his own image the stupidest thing to do would be to go PPV as well, especially if there is no pressing need to.
Rather Sundance should not have been so stupid as to force a system onto a community that is still far too young for it, him backtracking just proves his new system isn't working and he's desperately trying to gain favor again.
The only reason to need PPV when it's been proven you can manage just fine without is a desire for more money or an inability to attract sponsors, with Sundance living in a seaside villa, MLG being the biggest American e-sports tourney and his great love for a dumb game like Halo I'm inclined to believe Sundance doesn't really care about SC2 if it wasn't for the money.
On June 24 2012 05:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:
IPL is also probably the biggest money sink of a league there is. Sundance isn't trying to "make big bucks" he's just trying to keep running a league financially viable, which I think he's doing a great job of. Don't get me wrong, David Ting is a smart guy and has a huge passion for eSports, but the reason he gets away with so much stuff is the relatively huge financial backing he's got. He's still in the stage of trying to make IPL break even.
Perhaps if he wasn't so worried about his public image, he might be past that and be in the stage Sundance is in.
On June 24 2012 05:30 Scootaloo wrote:
Ting from IPL says there is no need to ever go PPV, he might not be making profits, but he never intended to, meaning that as Sundance went into this scene looking for the big bucks that might just be the wrong approach to a scene like this, especially when it's still so young.
And Biscuit, bitching about somebody providing no deep analysis is only valid if you follow it up with some knowledgeable information yourself.
On June 24 2012 05:10 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
Please tell us more about your knowledge in this area, it sure sounds interesting.
[quote]
Please tell us more about your knowledge in this area, it sure sounds interesting.
Ting from IPL says there is no need to ever go PPV, he might not be making profits, but he never intended to, meaning that as Sundance went into this scene looking for the big bucks that might just be the wrong approach to a scene like this, especially when it's still so young.
And Biscuit, bitching about somebody providing no deep analysis is only valid if you follow it up with some knowledgeable information yourself.
IPL is also probably the biggest money sink of a league there is. Sundance isn't trying to "make big bucks" he's just trying to keep running a league financially viable, which I think he's doing a great job of. Don't get me wrong, David Ting is a smart guy and has a huge passion for eSports, but the reason he gets away with so much stuff is the relatively huge financial backing he's got. He's still in the stage of trying to make IPL break even.
Perhaps if he wasn't so worried about his public image, he might be past that and be in the stage Sundance is in.
I think you miss the point though, IPL being a money sink is not a problem as it's paid for by the sponsors, mainly IGN, viewers are worth this lost money according to the sponsors.
I don't get where you get the impression IPL is the biggest moneysink, MLG seems to spend money like crazy (even on the LO3 where they interviewed Sundance about PPV Wheat and Scoots point this out) where they could easily cut corners if they cared enough.
Seems to me one of the major problems of MLG is lack of sponsors, whereas IPL managed to create an incredible deal with IGN or the less stable GSL Pepsi one, MLG has no such backing, something which I can only really attribute to Sundance, as it is his job to do so or hire someone capable of it.
And about Ting's public image, you're just projecting your desire for everything to be PPV because Sundance told you that was the only way to make this viable, just after Sundance completely destroyed his own image the stupidest thing to do would be to go PPV as well, especially if there is no pressing need to.
Rather Sundance should not have been so stupid as to force a system onto a community that is still far too young for it, him backtracking just proves his new system isn't working and he's desperately trying to gain favor again.
The only reason to need PPV when it's been proven you can manage just fine without is a desire for more money or an inability to attract sponsors, with Sundance living in a seaside villa, MLG being the biggest American e-sports tourney and his great love for a dumb game like Halo I'm inclined to believe Sundance doesn't really care about SC2 if it wasn't for the money.
First of all, MLG has better sponsors than IPL, that's pretty much a fact. You should probably do some research.
IGN does not sponsor IPL, IGN IS IPL. IGN didn't say, "Hey, look at this cool league they're starting, we should sponsor it!" they said "Hey, lets get into this eSports thing and start our own league" David Ting, before IPL, was an employee at IGN. MLG also has the advantage of bringing in pure VC investments. I don't understand what you don't get about IPL being in the red horribly and MLG not even being close to that bad.
You're "inclined to believe" he doesn't care about SC2? Have you ever actually had a conversation with the guy?
The naivety of some people on this forum astounds me, just because you perceive MLG as the bad guy and IPL as the good guy doesn't mean that IPL is actually the better business model.
Actually according to the Executives with David Ting it was all his own idea and initiative, whether they are a sponsor or owner is irrelevant in this case, they pay for a bunch of people to get their brand name out. And they are successfull at it, y'know, this is how advertising works.
I don't understand where you get the idea that IPL is heavily in the red, it's advertisement money, it's supposed to be spent, or for that matter that IPL spends more of it then MLG, you got any numbers to back this up or this this just guesstimating based on vague statements from Sundance?
Never talked to Sundance in person ofcourse, nor would I want to, he seems pretty pompous and unable to listen to a opinion that conflicts with his own if we're to take any interview about PPV as a basis. "I get it, I get it."
Funny how you try to speak about naivity when you're trying to defend a COMPANY from being greedy, you know, that basic thing that 99% of all companies are foccused on? Clearly you need to go to the real world more often.
I can't be bothered to go find the source, but you're welcome to. David Ting's long term goal is to make IPL break even. I get the idea that IPL is in the red because I know IPL is in the red. I don't think you understand how leagues work. For a league to be a long term self sustaining entity they have to make a profit somewhere. Currently MLG is experimenting with finding exactly what that business model is. Frankly, I applaud them for that. Sure, it means taking a lot of flak from less informed members of the community, and sure it might not make them the most popular organization in some peoples eyes, but I can guarantee you as soon as MLG does find a successful business model, IPL will be right behind them in implementing it. I'm not defending a company from being greedy, I'm defending a great guy who tries hard to make eSports this financially viable thing who's actually a brilliant person and is really passionate about what he does.
Sundance is probably one of the nicest people I've had the pleasure of meeting during my time in eSports, and that's why I get so angry when people portray him as this evil corporate money grabbing scumbag.
I never said IPL spends more money than MLG, I said IPL has a worse bottom line than MLG. I can't believe you're naive enough to think they both start with the same amount of money.
How did you think this works? League A charges less money for HD, less money for spectator passes, less money for player passes, and gets less attendance than League B. You still think League A is the better business model?
Meanwhile League B flies players in from all across the globe, comps them hotels and meals, creates an entirely new tournament dynamic, and adds good prize money on top of that.
You don't seem to understand the difference between a self sustaining organization that's able to bring in large amounts of venture capital because of a solid, somewhat profitable business model and a money sink with a huge corporate back pocket.
OK, so as you provide no source your statements about IPL being the biggest money sink are just meaningless.
I don't think you understand how a league works, talking about breaking even and business models is all fun but you seem to forget that at the end of the day it's all about funding, if IPL and Dreamhack can do their job based on ad revenue and sponsorship that means when Sundance says "If PPV fails E-sports is dead." or "E-sports can't grow without PPV." he is either, dumb, lying or worse at his job then the guys who run the aforementioned leagues.
It's great how your big buds with Sundance, it makes it easy for you to forget that when he came up on LO3 and SotG and had his "I get it" tantrums he was directly lying to the fans, not even giving their opinion the least consideration, thinking of us as retards who could be easily manipulated into buying a overpriced product.
Now, you might have known him beforehand, but for most of us this was our first introduction to the man, I'd seen his face before, but he's just a CEO, not someone who the public is actually supposed to be in close contact with.
I never suggested they start with the same amount of money, but you're suggesting MLG is financially doing great compared with IPL, when motherfucking Sundance was the one who first begged the people to buy his Gold passes, and after that he invented the Arena and did another begging round across the community, or rather threatening, he wasn't just offering a product, he was threatening that if it didn't work himself, and E-sports along with him would go down.
You league A & B examples are broken, Dreamhack doesn't charge a damn cent, has massive prize pools (higher then the rather low 5k for a normal MLG) and has at many times broken regular MLG viewerships, and just straight up destroyed those of MLG Arena's, I have no doubt you consider MLG to be your favorite league, but personally I've had much more memorable moments at Dreamhacks, and yes, I did watch the Arena's, all of them.
It's amusing how you keep using the term naive when you can't see someones real motives because he was friendly to you when you met him. And your final line just compares IPL to MLG, if you add Dreamhack to the equation, once again it doesn't work.
Ergo: Sundance is a liar or worse at his job then the CEO's of IPL and Dreamhack.
you two, please carry on, good dicussion
also, Virgil, you do seem a little biased. just because you say you know something, and you're a well known member of a community, doesn't make you right. put some proof in your arguments, because common sense actually implies that every other organization but mlg (including ipl-that-is-so-in-the-red) has a better bussines model, otherwise ppv would stay, mlg would have bigger prize pool, etc.
on a side note, the fact mlg choose to go to expensive new york, to fly in players, etc doesnt actually prove they're doing it better, it just shows they made a poor bussines decision and took a risk they shouldn't have. shoving ppv down peoples throats to make it work was another failiure on its own. meanwhile, dreamhack is owning it up with their production value, and im really curious to see if they are satisfied financially... i think they dicussed it on the GD show but i fail to make time for the show
Why are we still using IPL as an organizer who is in the red... Ofc they're in the fucking red they started their tournament 1 year ago every fucking company runs in the red their first year.. If they don't run break even in 3 years or so then you can start taking them as an example not now...
if you read discussion that i quoted, you will see that i don't agree with ipl used as an example of in-the-red-organization
cheers
