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I am addressing the new 2v2 map introduced by Blizzard - Desolate Stronghold.
This is the direct quote from their "feelings"
"While we did not feel that the feel that the existing 2v2 map pool suffered from any significant issues, we wanted to breathe some new life into the ladder pool."
This is the result
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gVrGa.jpg)
The tanks are IN RANGE of the MAIN OC, and where the box cursor is, siege tank fire can deny the entire mineral line.
This is the same for the other side of the map, as it is a mirror map.
Lets address the other parts of the map -
There isnt an expansion easy to take for the player further inside the base.
The ramp is extremely far for both the royal blue and the purple player, inside a MASSIVE shared base (each is almost 1/3 the height of the entire map). Blizzard probably designed this map to be split left and right, but really, who wants to play macro on a map where one player cannot even expand properly?
Other parts to abuse - remember how I said the bases were massive? Collosi/mass blink stalker strat from edge. Reapers, etc etc..
The nat expansion, as indicated on the map, is further off than some 1v1 map's 3rd base, making it very unappealing to play any type of macro.
And we thought we had it bad with Tyrador keep
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A6H96.jpg)
Tanks are in range of both main and nat OC, ramp is opposite side of base, forcing proper engagement to be from within the base.
The green supply depot line indicates just how close it is from a bottom to right spawn
And this is how Blizzard feels about it:
"we did not feel that the feel that the existing 2v2 map pool suffered from any significant issues"
Hey Blizzard, I know team games arent exactly balanced, and not a lot of work CAN be put into team games, but at least dont make it worse?
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Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
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Get a viking, keep the barracks away? Get you own tanks, siege them up before he arrives?
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u should post this on the bnet forums, not here
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On June 22 2012 18:03 Rabbitmaster wrote:
Get a viking, keep the barracks away? Get you own tanks, siege them up before he arrives?
Oh hey, I play zerg. Remind me how to make vikings with zerg again?
This issue has nothing to do with terran being attacked, and I am not discussing a strategy to defend against this.
What I am addressing is the quality of team game maps. Either make it better or dont change it. Its not helping to add worse maps for us to veto.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
My zerg friend has voiced some discomfort with expanding from the far position to the natural on desolate stronghold, but that siege tank picture makes me very worried. I did similar thigs with colossi, but didnt consider tanks on this map. The ramp down from the mains is so far away, and anything trying to fight back from the high ground will be destroyed by tank fire and other ranged units on the low ground, seems like a map-breaking issue to me.
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On June 22 2012 18:06 snailz wrote:
its a feature, not a bug
I never said it was a bug.
And I remember the same "feature" on Tal Darim Altar where you can pop siege tanks at a tiny nook between third and main, allowing the tank to be in range of the main. And also a "feature" on the same map where units can be dropped on top of a tiny hill right in range of the nat.
You dont recall? Because they got removed asap.
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I personally think 2v2 can be competitive, if not fully balanced, by a good map pool. Problem is that there's no demand for a competitive map pool because there are no (big) tournaments, and there are no (big) tournaments because it's not competitive right now. Stupid chicken egg situation IMO. The only way for it to get better is for players and fans to start calling for 2v2 tournaments and better 2v2 maps. I think I asked Diamond about it once and he basically said that there's no point in making 2v2 maps because there are no competitive tournaments, and I've seen mapmakers make similar statements. At the least inserting 2v2s into team leagues such as EGMCSL would help but I think they got rid of that... (haven't watched in a while unfortunately). Perhaps we can lobby GSTL to include 2v2s in their sets? But if they keep the winner's league format it doesn't really make sense (I personally feel that they should follow Proleague and do phases of normal format and winner's league format because winner's league allows teams without depth to get farther than they should).
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Well arguably these things matter less in 2v2s, as you have more opportunities to deny the siege tanks before they get to that position.
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i heard that Blizzard balanced the reaper not only because of the 1v1, but also the 2v2, as there were to powerful TTvXX strats. So, not all hope is lost for you sir.
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Make roaches kill the tanks
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On June 22 2012 18:03 Zeon0 wrote:
u should post this on the bnet forums, not here
This man's got it all right
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On June 22 2012 18:12 Bagi wrote:
Well arguably these things matter less in 2v2s, as you have more opportunities to deny the siege tanks before they get to that position.
On this particular game, my teammate got cannon rushed. I had to pull half my scvs and constantly make marine/bunkers to fend off the cannon rush/wall off at nat. By the time we defended it, I had 10 marines and a tank half way done, while the purple player was walking across the map with 4 tanks and at most 10 marines.
Yes, given a better situation I would have tanks sitting there already, units on both towers...etc.etc
The ramp is extremely far from where the siege tanks are places, meaning an interception is unlikely, as the map is designed to be split left and right.
Also - your argument really sucks. How is it different from telling a player who just got 3 rax SCV-allined to "You couldve scouted better and denied it?" Too generic man. Try giving that kind of answer on the strategy forums and enjoy a ban.
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On June 22 2012 18:17 SomeONEx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 18:03 Zeon0 wrote:
u should post this on the bnet forums, not here This man's got it all right
Because the community there is so much nicer?
Id like to think Blizzard staff members would like reading through the biggest foreign starcraft community that has a good quality control, and that they would notice this post.
My reason of posting here is also to alert fellow TL'ers who play teamgames like me about this abuse, whether they would veto the map or use the strategy is up to them.
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Can we stop with the sensationalist titles? This isn't reddit.
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On June 22 2012 18:21 Grumbels wrote:
Can we stop with the sensationalist titles? This isn't reddit.
I did include a [2v2] to indicate the subject. After that I dont think the title would be much different from " Siege Tank Abuse on Desolate Stronghold"
I am aware that my post isnt quality enough, and I am trying to fix my grammar issues.
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I don't know why everyone is giving the OP such a hard time about this. It has been common knowledge in starcraft for over a decade, that a tank hitting a main or it's mineral line from the low ground should never be possible.
Blizzard should seriously resign as map makers, because they have proven over and over that they are terrible at it. They lack basic common sense in their maps. There are so many outstanding community map makers out there, who can produce 10x better, and many would do it for free because they love starcraft, love making maps and love watching people battle it out on their creations.
I am just shocked at all the people defending this, and giving the op a hard time. This map is made by someone who is clearly ignorant to basic starcraft map design philosophy.
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On June 22 2012 18:24 Reborn8u wrote:
I don't know why everyone is giving the OP such a hard time about this. It has been common knowledge in starcraft for over a decade, that putting a tank hitting a main or it's mineral line from the low ground should never be possible.
Blizzard should seriously resign as map makers, because they have proven over and over that they are terrible at it. They lack basic common sense in their maps. There are so many outstanding community map makers out there, who can produce 10x better, and many would do it for free because they love starcraft, love making maps and love watching people battle it out on their creations.
I am just shocked at all the people defending this, and giving the op a hard time. This map is made by someone who is clearly ignorant to basic starcraft map design philosophy.
Thank you!! Someone who understands the game and can voice better than me!
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Lol, thanks for new tactics.
I mean good find, hopefully blizzard will think about making a balanced map to help with imbalanced 2v2 as it is xD
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EPT
