I am addressing the new 2v2 map introduced by Blizzard - Desolate Stronghold. This is the direct quote from their "feelings" "While we did not feel that the feel that the existing 2v2 map pool suffered from any significant issues, we wanted to breathe some new life into the ladder pool." This is the result
The tanks are IN RANGE of the MAIN OC, and where the box cursor is, siege tank fire can deny the entire mineral line.
This is the same for the other side of the map, as it is a mirror map.
Lets address the other parts of the map - There isnt an expansion easy to take for the player further inside the base. The ramp is extremely far for both the royal blue and the purple player, inside a MASSIVE shared base (each is almost 1/3 the height of the entire map). Blizzard probably designed this map to be split left and right, but really, who wants to play macro on a map where one player cannot even expand properly?
Other parts to abuse - remember how I said the bases were massive? Collosi/mass blink stalker strat from edge. Reapers, etc etc..
The nat expansion, as indicated on the map, is further off than some 1v1 map's 3rd base, making it very unappealing to play any type of macro.
And we thought we had it bad with Tyrador keep
Tanks are in range of both main and nat OC, ramp is opposite side of base, forcing proper engagement to be from within the base. The green supply depot line indicates just how close it is from a bottom to right spawn
And this is how Blizzard feels about it: "we did not feel that the feel that the existing 2v2 map pool suffered from any significant issues"
Hey Blizzard, I know team games arent exactly balanced, and not a lot of work CAN be put into team games, but at least dont make it worse?
Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
On June 22 2012 18:03 Rabbitmaster wrote: Get a viking, keep the barracks away? Get you own tanks, siege them up before he arrives?
Oh hey, I play zerg. Remind me how to make vikings with zerg again? This issue has nothing to do with terran being attacked, and I am not discussing a strategy to defend against this.
What I am addressing is the quality of team game maps. Either make it better or dont change it. Its not helping to add worse maps for us to veto.
My zerg friend has voiced some discomfort with expanding from the far position to the natural on desolate stronghold, but that siege tank picture makes me very worried. I did similar thigs with colossi, but didnt consider tanks on this map. The ramp down from the mains is so far away, and anything trying to fight back from the high ground will be destroyed by tank fire and other ranged units on the low ground, seems like a map-breaking issue to me.
On June 22 2012 18:06 snailz wrote: its a feature, not a bug
I never said it was a bug. And I remember the same "feature" on Tal Darim Altar where you can pop siege tanks at a tiny nook between third and main, allowing the tank to be in range of the main. And also a "feature" on the same map where units can be dropped on top of a tiny hill right in range of the nat. You dont recall? Because they got removed asap.
I personally think 2v2 can be competitive, if not fully balanced, by a good map pool. Problem is that there's no demand for a competitive map pool because there are no (big) tournaments, and there are no (big) tournaments because it's not competitive right now. Stupid chicken egg situation IMO. The only way for it to get better is for players and fans to start calling for 2v2 tournaments and better 2v2 maps. I think I asked Diamond about it once and he basically said that there's no point in making 2v2 maps because there are no competitive tournaments, and I've seen mapmakers make similar statements. At the least inserting 2v2s into team leagues such as EGMCSL would help but I think they got rid of that... (haven't watched in a while unfortunately). Perhaps we can lobby GSTL to include 2v2s in their sets? But if they keep the winner's league format it doesn't really make sense (I personally feel that they should follow Proleague and do phases of normal format and winner's league format because winner's league allows teams without depth to get farther than they should).
i heard that Blizzard balanced the reaper not only because of the 1v1, but also the 2v2, as there were to powerful TTvXX strats. So, not all hope is lost for you sir.
On June 22 2012 18:12 Bagi wrote: Well arguably these things matter less in 2v2s, as you have more opportunities to deny the siege tanks before they get to that position.
On this particular game, my teammate got cannon rushed. I had to pull half my scvs and constantly make marine/bunkers to fend off the cannon rush/wall off at nat. By the time we defended it, I had 10 marines and a tank half way done, while the purple player was walking across the map with 4 tanks and at most 10 marines.
Yes, given a better situation I would have tanks sitting there already, units on both towers...etc.etc
The ramp is extremely far from where the siege tanks are places, meaning an interception is unlikely, as the map is designed to be split left and right.
Also - your argument really sucks. How is it different from telling a player who just got 3 rax SCV-allined to "You couldve scouted better and denied it?" Too generic man. Try giving that kind of answer on the strategy forums and enjoy a ban.
On June 22 2012 18:03 Zeon0 wrote: u should post this on the bnet forums, not here
This man's got it all right
Because the community there is so much nicer? Id like to think Blizzard staff members would like reading through the biggest foreign starcraft community that has a good quality control, and that they would notice this post.
My reason of posting here is also to alert fellow TL'ers who play teamgames like me about this abuse, whether they would veto the map or use the strategy is up to them.
On June 22 2012 18:21 Grumbels wrote: Can we stop with the sensationalist titles? This isn't reddit.
I did include a [2v2] to indicate the subject. After that I dont think the title would be much different from " Siege Tank Abuse on Desolate Stronghold"
I am aware that my post isnt quality enough, and I am trying to fix my grammar issues.
I don't know why everyone is giving the OP such a hard time about this. It has been common knowledge in starcraft for over a decade, that a tank hitting a main or it's mineral line from the low ground should never be possible.
Blizzard should seriously resign as map makers, because they have proven over and over that they are terrible at it. They lack basic common sense in their maps. There are so many outstanding community map makers out there, who can produce 10x better, and many would do it for free because they love starcraft, love making maps and love watching people battle it out on their creations.
I am just shocked at all the people defending this, and giving the op a hard time. This map is made by someone who is clearly ignorant to basic starcraft map design philosophy.
On June 22 2012 18:24 Reborn8u wrote: I don't know why everyone is giving the OP such a hard time about this. It has been common knowledge in starcraft for over a decade, that putting a tank hitting a main or it's mineral line from the low ground should never be possible.
Blizzard should seriously resign as map makers, because they have proven over and over that they are terrible at it. They lack basic common sense in their maps. There are so many outstanding community map makers out there, who can produce 10x better, and many would do it for free because they love starcraft, love making maps and love watching people battle it out on their creations.
I am just shocked at all the people defending this, and giving the op a hard time. This map is made by someone who is clearly ignorant to basic starcraft map design philosophy.
Thank you!! Someone who understands the game and can voice better than me!
I don't understand the hostility against the OP either. Although I don't play 2v2s I imagine that this is a big deal for someone who does. But yeah we are all 1v1 Top Masters and GSL fanatics on TL.net apparently...
This map has the same problem but worse. You can hit the main mineral line from the gold expansion which is a 10 minute run from your base to get at, AND the tanks are hard to get at there. This happened to me and it was a sad day -_-
On June 22 2012 18:37 Psychobabas wrote: I don't understand the hostility against the OP either. Although I don't play 2v2s I imagine that this is a big deal for someone who does. But yeah we are all 1v1 Top Masters and GSL fanatics on TL.net apparently...
Any mention of playing anything other than 1's is met with insults here because apparently that is not actually part of the game (Or so they say).
On June 22 2012 18:03 Zeon0 wrote: u should post this on the bnet forums, not here
This man's got it all right
Because the community there is so much nicer? Id like to think Blizzard staff members would like reading through the biggest foreign starcraft community that has a good quality control, and that they would notice this post.
My reason of posting here is also to alert fellow TL'ers who play teamgames like me about this abuse, whether they would veto the map or use the strategy is up to them.
It's not about a nice community but you simply will have more luck that Blizzard finds it on their own forums rather then another one.
On June 22 2012 18:43 mrtomjones wrote: I posted about this exact issue for this map when they were asking for map feedback. I guess they didn't read/care about my input.
This map has the same problem but worse. You can hit the main mineral line from the gold expansion which is a 10 minute run from your base to get at, AND the tanks are hard to get at there. This happened to me and it was a sad day -_-
Oh god how I fucking hate that map. Shame I cant veto it because its one of the few maps that allow for nat expansions for all players.
If you do get the position where you can be sieged from the gold, break the rocks near your ramp asap and play a more defensive/offensive ready opener as the distance from your ramp to the opponent's nat suddenly just got a lot smaller.
I generally prefer to just rush 2 port banshees to prevent this kind of crap from happening, and also giving me a chance to harrass the island expansion very early on
On June 22 2012 18:43 mrtomjones wrote: I posted about this exact issue for this map when they were asking for map feedback. I guess they didn't read/care about my input.
This map has the same problem but worse. You can hit the main mineral line from the gold expansion which is a 10 minute run from your base to get at, AND the tanks are hard to get at there. This happened to me and it was a sad day -_-
Oh god how I fucking hate that map. Shame I cant veto it because its one of the few maps that allow for nat expansions for all players.
Yah.. I love it because it actually allows a macro style(Kinda) but I don't like many aspects of it. Love/hate relationship.
I hate when they don't allow every player to have a natural. When they put 1 players natural in the middle of the map... I always try to veto those ones.
On June 22 2012 18:50 desarrisc wrote: The offensive, sensationalist title is really making the OP look bad. It sounds like something out of battle net forums.
I can see his point, but then again, it's 2v2. The land of mass void rays and all-ins.
Fine. Mod can you please switch it to "[2v2] Abuse on Desolate Stronghold" so people who cant read the [2v2] part wont have to think Blizzard just brought back 5 rax reaper or some shit?
On June 22 2012 18:43 mrtomjones wrote: I posted about this exact issue for this map when they were asking for map feedback. I guess they didn't read/care about my input.
This map has the same problem but worse. You can hit the main mineral line from the gold expansion which is a 10 minute run from your base to get at, AND the tanks are hard to get at there. This happened to me and it was a sad day -_-
Oh god how I fucking hate that map. Shame I cant veto it because its one of the few maps that allow for nat expansions for all players.
Yah.. I love it because it actually allows a macro style(Kinda) but I don't like many aspects of it. Love/hate relationship.
I hate when they don't allow every player to have a natural. When they put 1 players natural in the middle of the map... I always try to veto those ones.
Arakan Citadel and Green Acres Both look like awesome macro maps but always have one player missing a nat.
Sounds like a mighty whine post. Blizzard doesn't care about making 2v2 balanced and its pretty well known. Wah wah wah WELL DONT LET THEM SIEGE UP AT UR OWN CLIFF THEN PROBLEM SOLVED GGz
bllizzard nore the community (as a mjority) ever gave a single fuck about team games. the entire 2v2 map pool is garbage and it only gets worse in 3v3 and then it becomes a utter lol fest in 4v4s. sure there fun, but blizzard only cares about 1v1s because that is what the community cares about.
this game and the company is so focused on "esports" that they are forgetting that ppl actually play this game for fun. they can atleast make decent maps for 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4s. FFA map pool hasnt been touched since beta. infact i remember them saying that 8v8 FFAs would be possible. i miss the epic FFAs of BW.
if they are not going to focus on this part of the game then let the community handle it because they obviously dont care enough to even try beyond half assing something.
On June 22 2012 18:53 LimeNade wrote: Sounds like a mighty whine post. Blizzard doesn't care about making 2v2 balanced and its pretty well known. Wah wah wah WELL DONT LET THEM SIEGE UP AT UR OWN CLIFF THEN PROBLEM SOLVED GGz
I love how the quality of replies instantly deteriorate to Bnet level once its not inside the Strategy Forums. So to reply back to you Hey, go eat shit alright? I won that game too because the protoss player decided to spend 2000 minerals on a failed cannon rush that dealt less than 500 direct damage.
And yes, its a bloody whine post because Im whining how Blizzard is fucking with teamgames. If they want to include teamgames and have ladder statistics on it they should at least work better on it, not make it worse.
The next time you make a post about losing to some rush, how would you like it if some 2 bit schmuck told you to just "defend properly, make more marines" and nothing else?
Hostility against the OP because he just whining to us. We aren't blizzard, we can't do anything about it, and its 2v2s so most of us don't care, take your whine somewhere else.
On June 22 2012 18:50 desarrisc wrote: The offensive, sensationalist title is really making the OP look bad. It sounds like something out of battle net forums.
I can see his point, but then again, it's 2v2. The land of mass void rays and all-ins.
2v2s can get very competitive. get out of silver and gold leage and maybe u will have a bit more competition.
its not untill u get into the realm of 3v3s and 4v4s where it becomes possible to mass carriers/voids all game long and where the imbalances of team games really start to rear there heads.
On June 22 2012 18:58 FinalForm wrote: Hostility against the OP because he just whining to us. We aren't blizzard, we can't do anything about it, and its 2v2s so most of us don't care, take your whine somewhere else.
Oh, I made a post that has a high potential for Blizzard staff to read on due to TL being the largest Starcraft forum, and also to warn/inform TLers who play teamgames about it.
Oh you dont care about 2v2? READ THE FUCKING TITLE. GTFO. I specifically added a [2v2] so only people who care about teamgames would visit/read. If you dont care about it, why the fuck did you even reply to it?
Haha. I serisouly don't get what is up with Blizzard and their claustrophobic maps. They think it's better to play one hundred sucky games, than one good long game.
Most of 2v2 maps are still the equivalent of Lost temple for 1v1. They're just lucky the 2v2 community is much less competitive and less vocal about it, but they suck as much. No comments...
On June 22 2012 18:50 desarrisc wrote: The offensive, sensationalist title is really making the OP look bad. It sounds like something out of battle net forums.
I can see his point, but then again, it's 2v2. The land of mass void rays and all-ins.
2v2s can get very competitive. get out of silver and gold leage and maybe u will have a bit more competition.
its not untill u get into the realm of 3v3s and 4v4s where it becomes possible to mass carriers/voids all game long and where the imbalances of team games really start to rear there heads.
I NEVER see mass void rays at any number of multiplayer. I am diamond/masters so maybe that is why but yah... There are some rare odd builds that work due to it being hard to scout four people
On June 22 2012 18:58 FinalForm wrote: Hostility against the OP because he just whining to us. We aren't blizzard, we can't do anything about it, and its 2v2s so most of us don't care, take your whine somewhere else.
that is stupid. its still an issue and i find it sad that the community just throws a issue out of the window because you dont care. that "most of us dont care" attitude is the exact reason the game is the way it is now and the exact reason why we are getting patch 1.5 2 years late.
this is still a game many of us paid for so why ignore team games? because its not a esport? i see ppl whining about the carrier being taken out of the game in HoTS. why are ppl allowed to whine about the carrier for an expansion that is still in the alpha phase and not even released yet but we cant complain about current issues?
seriously people.... do you know why ppl dont care about team games? its because blizzard refuses to balance it. and why do blizzard refuse to balance it? because the majority of the community, such as yourself, do not care. if the maps are atleast decent then alot more ppl would play team games. if its balanced enought there could even be team leagues apart from 1v1 leagues, but the community just doesnt give a fuck about anything except for 1v1 which is very, very sad.
i would love for esports to grow so huge for the game to be balanced enough that 2v2s and even 4v4s are seen played by pro players in MLG or GSL as a nice change of pace from 1v1 games. but that will never happen because of one reason, the community.
Jesus Christ guys... Calm your hormones. Why is there so much caps and swear words going on? We all agree that it's a bad map. OK we got that settled. Furthermore the thread obviously belongs in the battle.net forums. There's no reply needed for this. All that's important is that someone associated with the blizzard map team reads this, and TL is not the best place for that.
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
People like you annoy the shit out of me, why compare 2v2 on the same level as GSL you moron, 2v2 is a very fun part to the game and alot of people play it, just because it doesnt get as much notice as the GSL or MLG doesnt mean blizzard shouldnt improve it dont comment if your going to be a dick.....rant over
On June 22 2012 19:14 Euronyme wrote: Jesus Christ guys... Calm your hormones. Why is there so much caps and swear words going on? We all agree that it's a bad map. OK we got that settled. Furthermore the thread obviously belongs in the battle.net forums. There's no reply needed for this. All that's important is that someone associated with the blizzard map team reads this, and TL is not the best place for that.
Ok. I checked the forums out. I dont even know where the stick this. Bug? This isnt a bug. This is probably intended by the way teamgame maps go.
Do I dump this in strategy forums where mods dont even touch and random /b/ quality posts such as "Can we count to 1000 before a blue post" thrive? Not very likely.
So pray tell me, where do I even put this? Theres no "Map discussion"
And finally, I posted it here so people on TL are aware of the abuse, and my audience was aimed towards [2v2], hence the title. Also, judging by the amount of changes we had in team game maps, I doubt Blizzard gives half a shit about it even if I did post it on the Bnet Forums.
I admit when I made the post I was a bit annoyed towards Blizzard, but changing the entire tone from "Fuck you Blizzard" to "Abuse I found on this map" is a bit late now.
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
"We" don't care? speak for yourself or don't speak at all. I care and so does the OP and multiple people in this thread. And don't compare it to GSL. GSL has nothing to do with what the OP i saying. I agree OP. If the maps were atleast decent there would be alot more 2v2 leagues. Tact's will get tried out and maybe even some transferred to 1v1. Not with the crap maps that is now tho.
This title is better. Perhaps those who are posting on this thread could get together and make sure the post on Blizzard forums got some activity? Oh and I feel like it shouldnt simply focus on that one map.
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
insult the game you play more. I'll never understand people like you, instead of trying to fix issues you sweep them under the rug with a pretentious attitude
This sucks for 2v2 players, but TBH I would much prefer Blizzard focusing on fixing things wrong with interface and 1v1 stuff before they focus 2v2 games and map pool....
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
insult the game you play more. I'll never understand people like you, instead of trying to fix issues you sweep them under the rug with a pretentious attitude
Where was he insulting the game at all? He was just stating facts. Well over 50% of the people playing are doing so 1v1 or custom games. Tournaments are all 1v1, Blizzard is going to focus on the important things first(No offence meant to team players, but 1v1 has peoples career on the line.)
On June 23 2012 08:06 Necro)Phagist( wrote: This sucks for 2v2 players, but TBH I would much prefer Blizzard focusing on fixing things wrong with interface and 1v1 stuff before they focus 2v2 games and map pool....
Unfortunately for those playing 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 they have already been completely ignored for about a year now. It has been about 5 seasons or so since new maps were put in(2v2 FINALLY got new maps this season and they both have issues). We play this game too and it would take one person to fix this problem. Not a whole team. Hell they could have a damn map making contest and let the map makers like Diamond get some maps onto multiplayer as well.
I really wish there was a professional 2 v 2 tournament. I believe there was something like that for BW, I wonder if there will ever be a high level competition in SC2?
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
insult the game you play more. I'll never understand people like you, instead of trying to fix issues you sweep them under the rug with a pretentious attitude
Where was he insulting the game at all? He was just stating facts. Well over 50% of the people playing are doing so 1v1 or custom games. Tournaments are all 1v1, Blizzard is going to focus on the important things first(No offence meant to team players, but 1v1 has peoples career on the line.)
Everyone I know doesn't enjoy the solo aspect of playing 1v1 so I'd love to see some statistics of that. And no TL polls dont count because this community is largely based on 1v1 play. Don't get me wrong, I love watching the pro's and I do so all the time, but I feel team games need SOME attention. Yes 1's should get more because of the E-Sport side of it and it should be a lot more attention. I also feel the game should be balanced almost exclusively around 1's. That does not mean that making a few maps that are less broken for team players shouldn't happen.
On June 23 2012 08:06 Necro)Phagist( wrote: This sucks for 2v2 players, but TBH I would much prefer Blizzard focusing on fixing things wrong with interface and 1v1 stuff before they focus 2v2 games and map pool....
Unfortunately for those playing 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 they have already been completely ignored for about a year now. It has been about 5 seasons or so since new maps were put in(2v2 FINALLY got new maps this season and they both have issues). We play this game too and it would take one person to fix this problem. Not a whole team. Hell they could have a damn map making contest and let the map makers like Diamond get some maps onto multiplayer as well.
Hey if they do it like that, then awesome! All I'm saying is IF they have to actually put a dedicated team on it, I'd rather that they just focus on 1v1 due to the what I said in an earlier post(People have careers and lives based off 1v1 play etc.)
Anyone remember how a terran could rush a tank drop on LT, BW version, on the 3 'oclock base? Probably not, because there were PGT, Iccup, brain?, and other versions made without that little cliff in the very top right corner.
this might be a shocker, but blizzard hasn't updated their team map pool in quite some time, so why would you expect blizzard to suddenly care?
between 1.5 arcade, HotS, mists of panda and managing and updating D3, I think blizzard has enough on their plate to not give a shit about how balanced 2v2 is at the moment.
since blizzard ain't doing shit to help you, maybe you should come up with counter strategies. Burrow your entire army right where he is likely to siege, then pounce. Get tanks on the high ground prior to the engagement. Get void rays to attack from above or something.... I'm sure you can think of ways to counter this strategy other than hoping blizzard will hear your QQ and come to the rescue.
Sorry OP, but this is the wrong place to post about 2v2s. Nobody here really plays 2v2 being that competative Starcraft has for the most part revolved around 1v1. That's why Blizzard balances the game around 1v1 and mapmakers specifically concentrate on 1v1 mode.
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
insult the game you play more. I'll never understand people like you, instead of trying to fix issues you sweep them under the rug with a pretentious attitude
Where was he insulting the game at all? He was just stating facts. Well over 50% of the people playing are doing so 1v1 or custom games. Tournaments are all 1v1, Blizzard is going to focus on the important things first(No offence meant to team players, but 1v1 has peoples career on the line.)
He was looking down on the 2v2 game mode, its not hard to infer that. I think that attitude is hilariously stupid because people who talk up starcraft talk down different gamemodes: "Esports exists but only in 1v1 SC2" mentality, and everything else must be hated on.
On June 23 2012 08:14 emc wrote: this might be a shocker, but blizzard hasn't updated their team map pool in quite some time, so why would you expect blizzard to suddenly care?
between 1.5 arcade, HotS, mists of panda and managing and updating D3, I think blizzard has enough on their plate to not give a shit about how balanced 2v2 is at the moment.
since blizzard ain't doing shit to help you, maybe you should come up with counter strategies. Burrow your entire army right where he is likely to siege, then pounce. Get tanks on the high ground prior to the engagement. Get void rays to attack from above or something.... I'm sure you can think of ways to counter this strategy other than hoping blizzard will hear your QQ and come to the rescue.
Funny. You do realize that just because someone makes a comment on map imbalance that does not mean they simply leave a game and refuse to try and counter a build right? Don't act like an elitist jerk. Oh and go QQ yourself elsewhere about racial imbalance or something.
On June 23 2012 08:16 GinDo wrote: Sorry OP, but this is the wrong place to post about 2v2s. Nobody here really plays 2v2 being that competative Starcraft has for the most part revolved around 1v1. That's why Blizzard balances the game around 1v1 and mapmakers specifically concentrate on 1v1 mode.
Consider posting in the B.Net Forums.
That's also an odd statement because there has been more than just him posting about this. Oddly enough this is the SC2 boards and .... even weirder... I know, but I had to double check myself... there is more than just a 1v1 mode in the game. Another shocker is that this is a SC2 general board and since other people have an interest in his post and mods have no issue with it now, I would say that you could either make a relevant post or simply ignore it.
Hating on it because it is not something that YOU do and because it is popular to hate on is simply ignorant. Let those who enjoy non 1v1 discuss it and you can go on your happy life, hating on a part of the game that others enjoy.
People that enjoy team games need to find a focused approach to boosting their scene. That includes creating opportunities for high-level games as well as getting more exposure and generating interest.
Right now the Collegiate Starleauge is one the biggest tournament that features 2v2. CSL currently is using Blizzard 2v2 map-pool, however, with the right petition and some help from mapmakers, you could possibly use CSL to launch new maps.
Hey OP! I'm sorry to see so much hate for you. I want to say that I love playing 2v2, and I appreciate you for calling out this nonsense here on Teamliquid. The Blizzard (2v2) maps are horrible, and I agree with your original point 100%. Its hard for me to believe that some guy got paid to make this crap. It also makes me sad and depressed to see so many people resorting to the "nobody here likes 2v2 cuz its imbalanced and can't be competitive" argument as a dismissal to your post. I for one would enjoy watching competitive, balanced 2v2 pro games so much more than the standard 1v1s, and I feel the biggest hurdle right now are these horrific maps.
Something about real cooperation within the game itself takes the experience to a whole other level for me. To me teams in SC2 feel like little more than groups of practice partners and/or friends united under the same banner. But the closest they get to really fighting together for victory is in a team league... and look how AWESOME Team Leagues can be. Now try to imagine your favorite players playing together, within the game, at the same time to take down to other opponents. Imagine the feeling of sharing a victory and a prize pool with a close friend and teammate over a series of games truly played together. Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, and I know the unlikelihood of balanced, high level 2v2 happening in the near future, but I will not hesitate to support someone who calls Spade a fucking Spade.
You won't get much love from this community, 2v2's are kinda taken as a joke (or at least not serious enough to care about) by most players.... Anyway, just downvote it.
On June 23 2012 08:51 NeMeSiS3 wrote: You won't get much love from this community, 2v2's are kinda taken as a joke (or at least not serious enough to care about) by most players.... Anyway, just downvote it.
Almost every map needs to be replaced, so that's not always an option.
On June 22 2012 18:12 Bagi wrote: Well arguably these things matter less in 2v2s, as you have more opportunities to deny the siege tanks before they get to that position.
On this particular game, my teammate got cannon rushed. I had to pull half my scvs and constantly make marine/bunkers to fend off the cannon rush/wall off at nat. By the time we defended it, I had 10 marines and a tank half way done, while the purple player was walking across the map with 4 tanks and at most 10 marines.
Yes, given a better situation I would have tanks sitting there already, units on both towers...etc.etc
The ramp is extremely far from where the siege tanks are places, meaning an interception is unlikely, as the map is designed to be split left and right.
Also - your argument really sucks. How is it different from telling a player who just got 3 rax SCV-allined to "You couldve scouted better and denied it?" Too generic man. Try giving that kind of answer on the strategy forums and enjoy a ban.
You created a thread about balance and stated that you weren't open to suggestions as to how to stop what you claim is OP. You really shouldn't be telling someone they're going to get banned.
My ally and I faced some of this abuse before. Was pretty difficult to deal with, but nothing game-breaking imo. Especially when you know it's a possibility it becomes easier to stop.
On June 22 2012 18:11 i.of.the.storm wrote: I personally think 2v2 can be competitive, if not fully balanced, by a good map pool. Problem is that there's no demand for a competitive map pool because there are no (big) tournaments, and there are no (big) tournaments because it's not competitive right now. Stupid chicken egg situation IMO. The only way for it to get better is for players and fans to start calling for 2v2 tournaments and better 2v2 maps. I think I asked Diamond about it once and he basically said that there's no point in making 2v2 maps because there are no competitive tournaments, and I've seen mapmakers make similar statements. At the least inserting 2v2s into team leagues such as EGMCSL would help but I think they got rid of that... (haven't watched in a while unfortunately). Perhaps we can lobby GSTL to include 2v2s in their sets? But if they keep the winner's league format it doesn't really make sense (I personally feel that they should follow Proleague and do phases of normal format and winner's league format because winner's league allows teams without depth to get farther than they should).
It's not a chicken egg situation, there are just tons of reasons why 2v2 doesn't work well: - cooperation between the players, which is for a large part random, is of huge influence who wins. Tactically 2v2 won't ever get interesting because of this really - The balance between defensive capabilities and offense is different for 2v2 and since the game is balanced for 1v1 it just won't work out in 2v2. - Aggresive strategies practically always dominate 2v2 because of this aggresive advantage, this has always been the case in any 'high' level 2v2 RTS game.
Problems for 2v2 are just beyond maps and not fixable, it's just a fun format without any competetive interest. Has always been for RTS and probably will always be.
This isn't surprising. A lot of the 2v2 maps have this type of crap, and the old maps were even more race favoured. Remember the old 2s maps that had separated mains with wide ramps AND destructible entrances to the main?
I can't help but feel like either a. nobody tests the 2v2 map pool when their maps are created b. they intend for 2v2s to never last longer than 6-7 minutes, and as such design maps so that moves like this end games quickly.
These problems are even worse for Protoss, as Stalkers get obliterated by tank shots and unless you open stargate tech you can't do much of anything to stop these sieges (and if you open stargate, you get shit on by mostly every other standard 2s openers)
So easy to counter.... people in 2v2 just don'tk now how to play, it's not as figured out as 1v1
with a friend we basicly never lose 2v2's (an no, i am not a little bronze noobie talking, we're top masters 2v2, 35° or somehting like that last season in 2v2 worldwide on sc2 ranks), and we NEVER all in, only macro, macro, macro (white ra white ra we love you so much!)
That is FREELOSE vs, cloack banshee, robo, other guys making siege tanks, and zerg just making mass speedlings, it's just so easy to kill those tanks
Yeah, they hit the main, that's so good when you lose 2 workers, react, kill 3 tanks, worth it?
Edit : also, i don't understand people who veto maps, the only maps i might veto are the ones i master perfectly, don't veto a map you SUCK on, how do you learn to play?
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
No they wont... otherwise the ladder maps in 1v1 would have no golds, nutdepos and no close on antiga
On June 22 2012 18:03 FinalForm wrote: Blizzard doesn't care because we don't care. It's 2v2. Go start a 2v2 league with a following as strong as GSL then Blizzard will start paying more attention to maps.
No they wont... otherwise the ladder maps in 1v1 would have no golds, nutdepos and no close on antiga
People need to really understand how 2v2 works first anyways, or it will do like 1v1 and oh, shit, we made even more sucky maps when we actually thought they would be better!
Taking that siege position puts their army sooo far out of position so either you can save up some forces, surround it and kill it or counter attack and win.
They put features like this in 2v2 maps so the games don't turn in to boring standoffs.
On July 01 2012 06:39 AKomrade wrote: Why not prevent tanks from getting there in the first place?
Look at the second map he shows. I have had this problem a lot and found that there is no answer to it, so now I veto the map. But basically if they make tanks, it takes them 10s to go from their natural to be sieging your main (if they go by the rich, to the right of the OP image, you can siege the main). It takes you 20s with slings at the main to run around and attack where they are sieging you from. So basically it is a shorter rush distance than "defending distance." Most cases, you can not prevent this from happening outside of, at all points in time, having a larger army than them. Image if they have medivacs with a tank, do you defend the drop and hope they don't siege the low ground and stop all mining, or do you leave your army by the siege spot and hope they don't drop in the main where you won't be able to respond for a very long time.
On July 01 2012 06:39 AKomrade wrote: Why not prevent tanks from getting there in the first place?
Look at the second map he shows. I have had this problem a lot and found that there is no answer to it, so now I veto the map. But basically if they make tanks, it takes them 10s to go from their natural to be sieging your main (if they go by the rich, to the right of the OP image, you can siege the main). It takes you 20s with slings at the main to run around and attack where they are sieging you from. So basically it is a shorter rush distance than "defending distance." Most cases, you can not prevent this from happening outside of, at all points in time, having a larger army than them. Image if they have medivacs with a tank, do you defend the drop and hope they don't siege the low ground and stop all mining, or do you leave your army by the siege spot and hope they don't drop in the main where you won't be able to respond for a very long time.
On July 01 2012 07:04 saladToss wrote: Taking that siege position puts their army sooo far out of position so either you can save up some forces, surround it and kill it or counter attack and win.
They put features like this in 2v2 maps so the games don't turn in to boring standoffs.
Yea the push is really really easy to beat if you just play standard.
Also I think it's really stupid to say "I think the people who enjoys 2s should progress their scene" because almost every top level 2v2 player is high master/GM 1v1. So the people who "enjoy 2s exclusively" are for the most part not very good.
Blizzard tries to keep things interesting by introducing new maps, but of course they're going to screw up. They really just need to host a community 2v2 map tournament or something so map makers who actually know wtf they're doing can make something because Blizz will keep introducing this idiotic bullshit because the players don't give a shit. Like people are saying it's 2v2, it's a shitty map so just veto it, get over it and move on. Could also try the Blizzard forums; if you attract enough attention you might even get a Blue to post! Which won't really amount to anything, but it would be cute.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gVrGa.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A6H96.jpg)
Both look like awesome macro maps but always have one player missing a nat.
