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In the end the players are what turns a game of Starcraft into something magical. Blizzard should not create a remake of Broodwar, but create a new game that allows players to create amazing games out of (mostly) their own skill. If this is only possible through putting old Broodwar units back into the game so be it.
I just want SC2 to be a game that is as good as Broodwar from a gameplay perspective, but looks nicer and is better to control. I fear that Blizzard is not able to achieve the gameplay part.
I don't think Blizzard will get things right with Heart of the Swarm, but there is still Legacy of the Void to look forward to and to hope they come up with units that are designed better than the roach or the colossus (or the tempest)...
edit:On June 17 2012 07:01 D u o wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:54 PlacidPanda wrote:On June 17 2012 01:04 Shiori wrote:
Considering everyone hates the Colossus, I wouldn't celebrate too quickly. Nobody is asking for units that are identical to BW counterparts; we're asking for units that respect the standard set by BW: high skill-cap, specialized units with clear weaknesses. Instead we have units like the Colossus/Roach/Marauder/Marine/Ling/Infestor/Immortal which are basically good against almost everything and are never a bad idea to build. What's more with the exception of the Marine, none of them are really micro-heavy. Are you kidding me? this is just not true, all of those except maybe the roach require a lot of micro to use effectively. For gods sake the infestor is a spellcaster, it is purely microbased. And they are quite often a bad idea to build. Also all of these have clear weaknesses, for gods sake half of them cant even shoot up! fungal reduces micro though, infestor takes micro but if you hit anything they're stuck which reduces the amount of micro in the game because the opponent can't do anything about it, its the same argument for concussive and force fields.
I wonder why they don't just make fungal it a heavy slow. It would still make surrounds and baneling hits easier or allow ultralisks to close in but would not leave the opponent totally helpless. As for forcefields, aren't forcefields just in the game so the colossus can work in the game (as well as giving protoss a way to survive early game, of course)?
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On June 17 2012 07:03 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:52 D u o wrote:On June 17 2012 06:49 oZii wrote:On June 17 2012 06:43 Spawkuring wrote:On June 17 2012 06:32 naastyOne wrote:
Most people do not want same thing
The continuing success of games like Mario and Call of Duty would disagree with you. A basically single player game that has done different things in the 3d space? A FPS shooter where every player has access to the same weapons and kill streaks? only comparison would be Starcraft Campain =/= mario. That doesnt work CoD multiplayer =/= Starcraft multiplayer cause Zerg doesn't get banshee's or colossus. So that doesnt work either. No comparison it was saying that mario and cod are doing successful things by changing as little as possible which is quite true and people keep buying the games and that they're unchanging thus trying to prove a point to the other person.......... Not comparing sc2 to cod or mario......... I know what it was saying it just makes no sense. You could say the same about Madden or your yearly sports game update. You know how many people are tired of Madden adding 1 new feature every year. Its just a roster update basically. It sells cause well its the only NFL sim game on the market. Also CoD is developed by 2 different studios so every other year it is kind of different. An example is sniping in a Treyarch Cod is different than Sniping in a Infinity Ward game. On the outside looking in they look the same but anyone who plays alot of CoD knows the difference between a CoD and Treyarch game. I will never buy a Treyarch CoD cause I don't like how they approach multiplayer. I will definitely buy a Infinity ward CoD. Also Infinity Ward CoD's usually sell more than Treyarch Cods. MW2 was best selling game of all time, Black Ops 1 beat that, MW3 beat that. They both have call of duty on the title but Treyarch updates their game mostly based on feedback from their previous installment 2 years ago. Same with Infinity ward MW3 is an update to MW2 not Black Ops.
The games concepts are the exact same. Same gametypes. Same killstreaks. Same game. Mechanics change because of the two companies and you still don't see the point, and they add a few small things. The games are the same. MAdden and yearly sport games sell really well and they're quite unchanging. You're just proving a point that you just tried to argue against...... Sc2 is the only RTS in the market and thusly it sells good as well just like your madden example. I don't even know why I did this post because you just said everything yourself. New units with same rolls is redundant.
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on topic: DB already said that they make new units because they can have a bit of a different feel, if they created a stalker and named it a dragoon everyone who watched and played bw would be disapointed. Or the oracle the arbitor, everyone would be " this isn't the arbitor this unit is completely worse."
I agree with most of the arguments against the new units that I've read but this is why they do it.
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I wish SC2:BW gained more traction as the game people in this thread are complaining about. Seriously - SC2 and SC:BW are too different to simply shove in BW units and it'll magically be OK.
SC2 is a new game, SC2:BW is BW with updated graphics, work on making it more popular if you want a SC:BW facelift 
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On June 17 2012 00:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Because Dustin Browder is cancer with his "go play BW it's a great game" line. He has no talent, is too old, and isn't suited for the job he has. Him and his goons prefer their pride over admitting they introduced fundamental balance flaws that can be fixed by taking a hint from some of the BW units.
Sorry about the negative tone, but it sums up the answer to your question.
User was temp banned for this post.
sorry, negative opinions arent welcome at tl.net, according to mods it adds nothing to the discussion...even though the same thing applies to positive opinions...
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^ you fucking moron dude. go kill yourself
User was banned for this post.
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id love to know the reasoning why blizz doesnt want to just make the goliath and the lurker. it doesnt make any sense to me not to reintroduce units from bw. the war hound and swarm host are basically old bw units with new names, so to call it something else just doesnt make any sense
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I really think the problem is too many bw units in SC2, not too few. To try and take a few units from a set of balanced units and then make up new ones that are totally different, but still just as balanced, just isn't a good idea, the equation just won't add up.
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On June 17 2012 07:25 OzkanTheFlip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 00:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Because Dustin Browder is cancer with his "go play BW it's a great game" line. He has no talent, is too old, and isn't suited for the job he has. Him and his goons prefer their pride over admitting they introduced fundamental balance flaws that can be fixed by taking a hint from some of the BW units.
Sorry about the negative tone, but it sums up the answer to your question.
User was temp banned for this post. sorry, negative opinions arent welcome at tl.net, according to mods it adds nothing to the discussion...even though the same thing applies to positive opinions...
It's not negative versus positive. It's destructive versus constructive. Making a fool of yourself by calling someone an "old, talentless cancer" isn't constructive, so it's destructive.
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On June 17 2012 07:12 D u o wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 07:03 oZii wrote:On June 17 2012 06:52 D u o wrote:On June 17 2012 06:49 oZii wrote:On June 17 2012 06:43 Spawkuring wrote:On June 17 2012 06:32 naastyOne wrote:
Most people do not want same thing
The continuing success of games like Mario and Call of Duty would disagree with you. A basically single player game that has done different things in the 3d space? A FPS shooter where every player has access to the same weapons and kill streaks? only comparison would be Starcraft Campain =/= mario. That doesnt work CoD multiplayer =/= Starcraft multiplayer cause Zerg doesn't get banshee's or colossus. So that doesnt work either. No comparison it was saying that mario and cod are doing successful things by changing as little as possible which is quite true and people keep buying the games and that they're unchanging thus trying to prove a point to the other person.......... Not comparing sc2 to cod or mario......... I know what it was saying it just makes no sense. You could say the same about Madden or your yearly sports game update. You know how many people are tired of Madden adding 1 new feature every year. Its just a roster update basically. It sells cause well its the only NFL sim game on the market. Also CoD is developed by 2 different studios so every other year it is kind of different. An example is sniping in a Treyarch Cod is different than Sniping in a Infinity Ward game. On the outside looking in they look the same but anyone who plays alot of CoD knows the difference between a CoD and Treyarch game. I will never buy a Treyarch CoD cause I don't like how they approach multiplayer. I will definitely buy a Infinity ward CoD. Also Infinity Ward CoD's usually sell more than Treyarch Cods. MW2 was best selling game of all time, Black Ops 1 beat that, MW3 beat that. They both have call of duty on the title but Treyarch updates their game mostly based on feedback from their previous installment 2 years ago. Same with Infinity ward MW3 is an update to MW2 not Black Ops. The games concepts are the exact same. Same gametypes. Same killstreaks. Same game. Mechanics change because of the two companies and you still don't see the point, and they add a few small things. The games are the same. MAdden and yearly sport games sell really well and they're quite unchanging. You're just proving a point that you just tried to argue against...... Sc2 is the only RTS in the market and thusly it sells good as well just like your madden example. I don't even know why I did this post because you just said everything yourself. New units with same rolls is redundant. ____________ on topic: DB already said that they make new units because they can have a bit of a different feel, if they created a stalker and named it a dragoon everyone who watched and played bw would be disapointed. Or the oracle the arbitor, everyone would be " this isn't the arbitor this unit is completely worse." I agree with most of the arguments against the new units that I've read but this is why they do it.
So is every FPS. Its just how the genre works. I can draw comparisons to Halo and CoD all day long. Sc2 isn't the only RTS on the market its just has the most popularity.
http://www.tiptoptens.com/2012/01/12/top-10-best-real-time-strategy-games-in-2012/
You can't compare FPS genre to RTS genre because 1 genre lives off of yearly or bi-yearly incremental changes and 1 genre doesn't.
RTS don't come out yearly. Usually a RTS comes out and its played for years after release most definitely more than 1 year before the next installment comes out. My point is you can't compare the games to one another and can't compare the genre's you have to have a totally different business model with a FPS than a RTS.
I guess blizzard should start charging for the new maps everytime they add a new one to ladder and call it a Map Pack.
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Man this reminds me that if nothing else, I still want the charon boosted goliath missle sounds. That was so fun back in the day
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It's because BW units aren't command and conquery enough for Browder to implement into sc2. He prefers to stick with what he knows best. I just hope the balance of SC2 doesn't continue to suffer as a result.
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Just adding BW units wouldn't do a whole lot, they still have to be balanced to SC2. Why can't people just fucking WAIT until HotS is out. Everyone wants SC2 to be like BW, yet the game hasn't been out long enough to become itself yet.
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Sigh.
The only problem with SC2 is that people cannot let it be Starcraft 2, people want WoL to be BW with a new engine and graphics, sorry that's not how it works. Especially when you go from a 20th century engine/programming to 21st century. It's like those parents who hate their 2nd son/daughter because he/she doesn't SEEM as good as the first. Let the kid grow up, shut up and simmer down.
Stop living in the past, if you like BW; you play BW, there is NOTHING wrong with Broodwar; so why the hell would you not play it if you complain about SC2? So apparently you want BW with new graphics, and apparently, you cannot have that. I do not want to live in a world where people make games to only update the graphics, oh shit, companies already do; and they suck.
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I guess in return to the lurker vs. swarm host, I would say that they are trying to hit as many of their design flaws as possible. Originally zerg wasn't very swarm-esque as day9 has said on multiple occasions and that they really have no way of locking down specific positions. So to add the lock down ability they add the lurker, but that just attacks, to make it so we feel more swarmy, let them spawn free units!
At least that is how I feel they came up with the idea for the swarm host.
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I've really enjoyed SC2 in the nearly 2 years its been out on retail. I played SC/BW casually since it was created up until SC2 came out. I think SC1/BW had graphical limitations that kind of pigeonholed the unit design and functionality. With great 3D implementation and a variety of other programming advances the game overall, is different. The "fundamentals" of most SC1/BW units do not transfer to SC2.
After playing SC2 for as long as I have, going back to SC1 makes me realize how much more advanced SC2 is and there is no reason for comparison. It's a totally different game, aside from the name it holds and some of the recognizable units from each race.
HoTS, I feel will provide the same "feel" as WoL, but it will be different and comparisons will be unfair.
The developers are doing a great job making the game interesting. I think the adjustments to balance, removal+addition of maps, the upcoming Arcade, etc.. proves that there is heart behind the game. I paid $60 for SC2 and it has provided countless hours of entertainment. I am not a pro and its not my job, 99.99% of you can say the same, but if you dislike it, quit playing it... you'll come back
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If it's too much like BW, people will complain about it and whine that it's just BW in 3D but they're selling it again for cheap money. If they make it original then people complain that it's not BW.
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On June 17 2012 07:07 ancientmariner wrote:In the end the players are what turns a game of Starcraft into something magical. Blizzard should not create a remake of Broodwar, but create a new game that allows players to create amazing games out of (mostly) their own skill. If this is only possible through putting old Broodwar units back into the game so be it. I just want SC2 to be a game that is as good as Broodwar from a gameplay perspective, but looks nicer and is better to control. I fear that Blizzard is not able to achieve the gameplay part. I don't think Blizzard will get things right with Heart of the Swarm, but there is still Legacy of the Void to look forward to and to hope they come up with units that are designed better than the roach or the colossus (or the tempest)... edit: Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 07:01 D u o wrote:On June 17 2012 06:54 PlacidPanda wrote:On June 17 2012 01:04 Shiori wrote:
Considering everyone hates the Colossus, I wouldn't celebrate too quickly. Nobody is asking for units that are identical to BW counterparts; we're asking for units that respect the standard set by BW: high skill-cap, specialized units with clear weaknesses. Instead we have units like the Colossus/Roach/Marauder/Marine/Ling/Infestor/Immortal which are basically good against almost everything and are never a bad idea to build. What's more with the exception of the Marine, none of them are really micro-heavy. Are you kidding me? this is just not true, all of those except maybe the roach require a lot of micro to use effectively. For gods sake the infestor is a spellcaster, it is purely microbased. And they are quite often a bad idea to build. Also all of these have clear weaknesses, for gods sake half of them cant even shoot up! fungal reduces micro though, infestor takes micro but if you hit anything they're stuck which reduces the amount of micro in the game because the opponent can't do anything about it, its the same argument for concussive and force fields. I wonder why they don't just make fungal it a heavy slow. It would still make surrounds and baneling hits easier or allow ultralisks to close in but would not leave the opponent totally helpless. As for forcefields, aren't forcefields just in the game so the colossus can work in the game (as well as giving protoss a way to survive early game, of course)?
I'm not saying ff or marauder slow or fungal isn't necessary in the current build P NEEDS FF or you die to the things terran/zerg have. Its just the mechanic itself reduces micro because you trap units. Stutter step micro is fun and slow makes kiting much easier for lower level players and probably is why people play terran for the most part, and fungal is just a stupidly good spell. Its just they ruin the game for me because if you get ff'd in a group or vortexed or fungal'd or you make a bad engagement as a toss vs t you lose unnessisary units while you reposition and ect. i mean if fungal wasn't in the game that means vortex wouldn't need to be making pvz endgame quite a bit better imo. ofcourse p would be the stronger race and come out ahead vs blord/other unit composition but isn't that what a protoss army should do vs a zerg army? Idk I can sit here and complain and what not, i just wish that things that reduced the amount of micro weren't in the game.
But they could easily change the game by adding zealot armor upgrades or something for mid/late game and maybe a +1 or 2 range on stalker twilight upgrade and just circumvent sentry all together. that way early game zealots don't destroy the world, and you can get a fairly quick upgrade for them so you can hold off timing attacks without splitting the terran army or needing 3 sentry to ff your wall forever. I really wish they pulled some units for hots instead of just the carrier which they didn't even try to fix at all. So idk.
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A lot of the bw units also just wouldnt be the same with the new engine, the way units move, etc.
And yea...we have bw to play when we want to play bw.
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I've wondered about two changes that would IMO make XvP more interesting:
1) FF would be destructible - would have hitpoints
2) to do splash dmg with colosus you would have to attack again second target explicitly
Second point leads me to even more interesting concept of gesture-like attack, imagine fungal growth affecting only area covered by mouse movement - for current effect you would have to hold RB and make small circle
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I might get my head bitten off by BW veterans here (full disclosure: yes, I did own/play BW before SC2 came out...but not a huge amount) but honestly just lifting BW units wouldn't work for SC2.
I'm not say they shouldn't take cues. There are clearly issues in SC2. For example, I'm probably one of the few people who like the Colossus. I like it because positioning is so crucial, which adds another small thing to think about when controlling your army which can improve your engagements significantly. However regardless of that the Colossus is one of the biggest contributors to late game PvT being so damn volatile. If you screw up your Colossi positioning and stalker focus-firing then you die, likewise if the Terran screws up sniping Colossi then they die. Same goes for Ghost/HT where it's whoever hits their AoE first. The matchup is absurdly volatile and can be a little frustrating.
There are definitely lessons to be learned from BW, but just lifting units across isn't going to work. Shoving the Reaver in with this current engine would probably be OP as hell. It's a different engine with different pathing and all works a different way. What I think they need to do is to look at WHY certain units in BW worked and use the essence of that to design new ones for the new engine.
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EPT
