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On June 17 2012 05:43 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:32 Spawkuring wrote:On June 17 2012 05:19 HowardRoark wrote:
But Dustin did bring back lots of units; Marines, BCs, Zealots, Lings, Hydras, Ultras etc in WoL. If I were the head of development for HotS I would never bring back the old units. I would try to bring the game to a new level. And, I am glad Dustin et al. try to create something new. Even if they fail at it and it turns out the units are just bleak redesigned BW units, I would prefer they tried.
I personally disagree. There are plenty of other games, including other RTSs, I could play if I wanted something new. I came to Starcraft for Starcraft gameplay because BW has PROVEN itself to be the pinnacle of competitive e-sports gameplay for 10+ years. Just look at DotA2 for example. It's literally the same game as DotA1, only with more online features, yet it's rapidly becoming the most played game on Steam and is enjoying more and more eSports success (and it's still in beta!). Sometimes new isn't always the answer, especially since SC's gameplay was never outdated in the first place. There's a big difference between old and outdated. true, but guaranteed that ice frog and valve add in new heroes that weren't in dota on WC3, GUARANTEED. Why? Because why not? They want people to buy the game, adding in new characters would give a better reason to buy the game. If I wanted a WC3 dota experience, I could just go play WC3 dota, or Hon, or LoL. What seperates Dota2 from the rest? you NEED to separate yourself and sometimes that means taking risks like adding in new characters or adding in new mechanics that people might not like. Valve might have the advantage for not having to change anything because... they are valve... and steam is the best platform by FAR, but I won't buy Dota2 if I can play LoL for free unless there is something really special about it. The same thing can be applied to SC2, no one wants to play the same game twice, because that game already exists, people have been playing it for 10+ years. HotS is going to offer enough things that will make BW players happy but at the same time will be a completely different game and will make it worth buying. Maybe new shiny things don't attract you to buy a game but for developers? Adding in new things is like the holy bible for creating video games, it's inevitable, unavoidable and frankly, a good thing.
AFAIK Dota 2 is going to be free to play. So basically it is the almost perfect, one and only, original and authentic Dota feeling with better GUI, graphics and functionality.
And even if it was a game I had to pay for, I would still do so, because I know what I get and that I will not regret buying it - because it is Dota 1.
I am not saying here SC2 should be the same as SC:BW, but the reason why Dota2 is going to be a success is that Valve doesn't really change anything.
Never change a running system, I guess.
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Bring back bw? that is the dumbest topic i have ever seen on the subject of sc2. THIS IS A NEW GAME PPL GET OVER IT!!
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On June 17 2012 04:46 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 04:44 fabiano wrote:On June 17 2012 04:32 mrtomjones wrote:On June 17 2012 01:04 Shiori wrote:On June 17 2012 01:02 Flightan wrote:
My guess is because, as a game developer, it really isn't fun to do the same things over and over again, you would much rather invent new stuff.
Imagine being the one that came up with the idea of the colossus, you can then be proud because it is being loved by many, it really isn't the same as just re-coding the reaver. Considering everyone hates the Colossus, I wouldn't celebrate too quickly. Nobody is asking for units that are identical to BW counterparts; we're asking for units that respect the standard set by BW: high skill-cap, specialized units with clear weaknesses. Instead we have units like the Colossus/Roach/Marauder/Marine/Ling/Infestor/Immortal which are basically good against almost everything and are never a bad idea to build. What's more with the exception of the Marine, none of them are really micro-heavy. The devourer wasnt almost always a good idea to have in ZvT BW!? what the.... Do you even know what a devourer is? I think you mean some other unit. it's a troll, he is making fun of the BW elitists who think every unit has a use when in fact, the devourer had virtually no use, ever.
long zvz games, and in zvp if protoss goes carriers after corsair reaver, they are a must to deal with carriers and corsairs
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The only reason zerg want the lurker back is because with them they would not die to terrans. EVER.
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On June 17 2012 06:08 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
Bring back bw? that is the dumbest topic i have ever seen on the subject of sc2. THIS IS A NEW GAME PPL GET OVER IT!!
it would be really easy to get over it if sc2 didnt rape bw and kill it aftereards
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On June 17 2012 06:21 honed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:08 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
Bring back bw? that is the dumbest topic i have ever seen on the subject of sc2. THIS IS A NEW GAME PPL GET OVER IT!! it would be really easy to get over it if sc2 didnt rape bw and kill it aftereards
Opinions.
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On June 17 2012 06:21 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:21 honed wrote:On June 17 2012 06:08 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
Bring back bw? that is the dumbest topic i have ever seen on the subject of sc2. THIS IS A NEW GAME PPL GET OVER IT!! it would be really easy to get over it if sc2 didnt rape bw and kill it aftereards Opinions.
i think its closer to a fact that sc2 killed broodwar
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On June 17 2012 05:38 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:36 0neder wrote:On June 17 2012 05:29 toiletCAT wrote:
I'm sorry, but if you don't like the game, then don't play it. I love this game, and it's great. <3 What if you like the game, but loved BW and want to love this game, but it's not quite good enough. Then what do you do? BTW I'm talking about spectating. SC2 is great for me to play, but spectating is not the same as BW, not as exciting. Oh, and MORE DOSH.That's how I see it.
lol oh man thats great. favorited.
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On June 17 2012 06:23 honed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:21 toiletCAT wrote:On June 17 2012 06:21 honed wrote:On June 17 2012 06:08 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
Bring back bw? that is the dumbest topic i have ever seen on the subject of sc2. THIS IS A NEW GAME PPL GET OVER IT!! it would be really easy to get over it if sc2 didnt rape bw and kill it aftereards Opinions. i think its closer to a fact that sc2 killed broodwar
Not really. It was obviously a combination of many things that "killed" BW.
Just because the pros are moving on to SC2, doesn't mean SC2 alone caused the switch. Its just the most logical follow-up plan for them.
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On June 17 2012 06:26 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:23 honed wrote:On June 17 2012 06:21 toiletCAT wrote:On June 17 2012 06:21 honed wrote:On June 17 2012 06:08 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
Bring back bw? that is the dumbest topic i have ever seen on the subject of sc2. THIS IS A NEW GAME PPL GET OVER IT!! it would be really easy to get over it if sc2 didnt rape bw and kill it aftereards Opinions. i think its closer to a fact that sc2 killed broodwar Not really. It was obviously a combination of many things that "killed" BW. Just because the pros are moving on to SC2, doesn't mean SC2 alone caused the switch. Its just the most logical follow-up plan for them.
yeah i guess youre right on that. its just that it killed the foreign interest.. whatever interest there was. it was the nail in the proverbial coffin
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On June 17 2012 06:08 Hyperionnn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 04:46 emc wrote:On June 17 2012 04:44 fabiano wrote:On June 17 2012 04:32 mrtomjones wrote:On June 17 2012 01:04 Shiori wrote:On June 17 2012 01:02 Flightan wrote:
My guess is because, as a game developer, it really isn't fun to do the same things over and over again, you would much rather invent new stuff.
Imagine being the one that came up with the idea of the colossus, you can then be proud because it is being loved by many, it really isn't the same as just re-coding the reaver. Considering everyone hates the Colossus, I wouldn't celebrate too quickly. Nobody is asking for units that are identical to BW counterparts; we're asking for units that respect the standard set by BW: high skill-cap, specialized units with clear weaknesses. Instead we have units like the Colossus/Roach/Marauder/Marine/Ling/Infestor/Immortal which are basically good against almost everything and are never a bad idea to build. What's more with the exception of the Marine, none of them are really micro-heavy. The devourer wasnt almost always a good idea to have in ZvT BW!? what the.... Do you even know what a devourer is? I think you mean some other unit. it's a troll, he is making fun of the BW elitists who think every unit has a use when in fact, the devourer had virtually no use, ever. long zvz games, and in zvp if protoss goes carriers after corsair reaver, they are a must to deal with carriers and corsairs
I think every unit in BW did have at least a limited use, plus it's interesting to have units that are rarely used. I never got out of D/D+ on ICCup but the units that I probably saw least were Dark Archons and Devourers. But even with those, you could use Dark Archons to Mind Control something like a BC or an enemy worker to make enemy units. It's just that that almost never happened in real games, but it's exciting when it does.
Here's my question to the OP and people that agree with it, if the SC2 developers introduce units that mimic BW units in their functionality but essentially look different, why is that a bad thing?
The War Hound seems like it might work in terms of game play/balance because it functions like a Goliath, sure, but to me if it works, it works. I imagine they imitate but not copy for creative reasons.
Regardless, IMO the solution isn't introducing strict copies of BW units, because not all of those units would make sense in SC2. All of the units that came to SC2 directly from BW have had to be tweaked afaik. In BW, the Siege Tank did 70 base damage in Siege Mode--in SC2 it does 35. I think the reason for that is units were much more spread out in BW, so splash damage wasn't as large a factor. Take the Viper from HOTS, that makes sense to me because you can't just introduce BW's Defiler with Plague as is, it would wreck Terran.
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Firts, Team Liquid is basically Starcraft Broodwar heaven, the only(?) one in the non korean community.
The replies like "i just want BW-remake" are obvious, but TL is a drop in the ocean. Most people do not want same thing, SC2 needs to be different enought to please mainstream, since BW is long dead in the west.
Second, the world has moved, SC2 has to move from BW-esque interface. If anything SC2 interface is way to conservative. The games with global zoom are there from basically 2006(SupCom, SC:Forged alliance, SupCom2, ex), there is no reason Blizard could not implement it. Makes multitasking much easier.
Also long building ques, cycling of building que, sure useless for pros, but the silver-gold players could have plenty of use.
Third, for developers remake is always bad longterm, since they loose the auditory interested in innovation, and gain even more conservative fanbase, making the progress in the future even harder to ramm down the troats, destroying the company in the long term.
Introducing BW units is:
Loss(for company`s inside development, copying is lack of progres and waisted time)
Loss in reputation from the outsiders point of wiev since company that is just making remaiks, and not making something new is bad one, and surely decliningone.
Loss in the clients that did not like BW for some reason.
The only win comes from BW rooted fans, that will not play SC2 unless it is mostly similar to BW, but their numbers are very few, and the number of people that are close-minded enought to outright regect SC2 is even smaller,
so the gain from pleasing them is almost nonexistent.
Their woice can be loud on TL, but pretty much nowere else.
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On June 17 2012 06:32 naastyOne wrote:
Most people do not want same thing
The continuing success of games like Mario and Call of Duty would disagree with you.
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On June 17 2012 06:43 Spawkuring wrote:The continuing success of games like Mario and Call of Duty would disagree with you.
The Teamliquid community is a minority, my friend.
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On June 17 2012 06:43 Spawkuring wrote:The continuing success of games like Mario and Call of Duty would disagree with you.
A basically single player game that has done different things in the 3d space?
A FPS shooter where every player has access to the same weapons and kill streaks?
only comparison would be Starcraft Campain =/= mario. That doesnt work
CoD multiplayer =/= Starcraft multiplayer cause Zerg doesn't get banshee's or colossus. So that doesnt work either.
When a gun is balanced in CoD or added to the next game me, myself and irene have access to those changes anytime we play multiplayer. If i play terran, and irene plays toss then yea you get the picture I'm sure.
No comparison
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On June 17 2012 06:49 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:43 Spawkuring wrote:On June 17 2012 06:32 naastyOne wrote:
Most people do not want same thing
The continuing success of games like Mario and Call of Duty would disagree with you. A basically single player game that has done different things in the 3d space? A FPS shooter where every player has access to the same weapons and kill streaks? only comparison would be Starcraft Campain =/= mario. That doesnt work CoD multiplayer =/= Starcraft multiplayer cause Zerg doesn't get banshee's or colossus. So that doesnt work either. No comparison
it was saying that mario and cod are doing successful things by changing as little as possible which is quite true and people keep buying the games and that they're unchanging thus trying to prove a point to the other person.......... Not comparing sc2 to cod or mario.........
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On June 17 2012 01:04 Shiori wrote:
Considering everyone hates the Colossus, I wouldn't celebrate too quickly. Nobody is asking for units that are identical to BW counterparts; we're asking for units that respect the standard set by BW: high skill-cap, specialized units with clear weaknesses. Instead we have units like the Colossus/Roach/Marauder/Marine/Ling/Infestor/Immortal which are basically good against almost everything and are never a bad idea to build. What's more with the exception of the Marine, none of them are really micro-heavy.
Are you kidding me? this is just not true, all of those except maybe the roach require a lot of micro to use effectively. For gods sake the infestor is a spellcaster, it is purely microbased. And they are quite often a bad idea to build. Also all of these have clear weaknesses, for gods sake half of them cant even shoot up!
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On June 17 2012 06:54 PlacidPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:04 Shiori wrote:
Considering everyone hates the Colossus, I wouldn't celebrate too quickly. Nobody is asking for units that are identical to BW counterparts; we're asking for units that respect the standard set by BW: high skill-cap, specialized units with clear weaknesses. Instead we have units like the Colossus/Roach/Marauder/Marine/Ling/Infestor/Immortal which are basically good against almost everything and are never a bad idea to build. What's more with the exception of the Marine, none of them are really micro-heavy. Are you kidding me? this is just not true, all of those except maybe the roach require a lot of micro to use effectively. For gods sake the infestor is a spellcaster, it is purely microbased. And they are quite often a bad idea to build. Also all of these have clear weaknesses, for gods sake half of them cant even shoot up!
fungal reduces micro though, infestor takes micro but if you hit anything they're stuck which reduces the amount of micro in the game because the opponent can't do anything about it, its the same argument for concussive and force fields.
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On June 17 2012 06:52 D u o wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:49 oZii wrote:On June 17 2012 06:43 Spawkuring wrote:On June 17 2012 06:32 naastyOne wrote:
Most people do not want same thing
The continuing success of games like Mario and Call of Duty would disagree with you. A basically single player game that has done different things in the 3d space? A FPS shooter where every player has access to the same weapons and kill streaks? only comparison would be Starcraft Campain =/= mario. That doesnt work CoD multiplayer =/= Starcraft multiplayer cause Zerg doesn't get banshee's or colossus. So that doesnt work either. No comparison it was saying that mario and cod are doing successful things by changing as little as possible which is quite true and people keep buying the games and that they're unchanging thus trying to prove a point to the other person.......... Not comparing sc2 to cod or mario.........
I know what it was saying it just makes no sense. You could say the same about Madden or your yearly sports game update. You know how many people are tired of Madden adding 1 new feature every year. Its just a roster update basically. It sells cause well its the only NFL sim game on the market.
Also CoD is developed by 2 different studios so every other year it is kind of different. An example is sniping in a Treyarch Cod is different than Sniping in a Infinity Ward game.
On the outside looking in they look the same but anyone who plays alot of CoD knows the difference between a CoD and Treyarch game. I will never buy a Treyarch CoD cause I don't like how they approach multiplayer. I will definitely buy a Infinity ward CoD. Also Infinity Ward CoD's usually sell more than Treyarch Cods. MW2 was best selling game of all time, Black Ops 1 beat that, MW3 beat that.
They both have call of duty on the title but Treyarch updates their game mostly based on feedback from their previous installment 2 years ago. Same with Infinity ward MW3 is an update to MW2 not Black Ops.
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afaik, sc2 was decreasing rapidly # wise, both in stream views, MLG cast #s, etc. (which they havent posted for a while now, presumably bc they leveled off pretty dramatically or even fell excepting LoL, which would be awful given they just got a VC infusion.)
basically the only things contributing to the organic growth of SC2 were the long awaited influx of BW players. and an expansion, that many are already prophesizing to be a large disappointment.
once those are gone, then what?
idk, my guess is blizz loses focus on sc2, and moves on to Titan, and sc2 stagnates for a while.
there's no way sc2 enjoys the same success BW had, and the longevity it enjoyed.
idk if its browder, or kim, or the design team, or whomever. but this game just doesn't look or feel at all like something that i'd want to play for 15 years straight.
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EPT
