• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:57
CEST 15:57
KST 22:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Who will win EWC 2025? Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments RSL Season 1 - Final Week How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports?
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Corsair Pursuit Micro? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pro gamer house photos Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 758 users

Reluctance to Re-Introduce BW-Units - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 43 Next All
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
June 17 2012 01:52 GMT
#241
Slightly offtopic but I should note that some SCII units are excellent. The baneling immediately comes to mind. A very awesome cool unit. SCII just needs more awesome cool units. The swarm host isn't very cool. Abduct is very cool. The tempest isn't very cool, the hellhound or whatever is OK but not great. Scouts in BW were not very cool, hence why they were never used much.

I consider hydralisks, zlings, rines, dragoons, stalkers, and zealots to be breadandbutter units where they don't need to be amazingly cool, but rather do their job well, but for tech units they need to be cool and awesome and powerful, which is where I feel SCII sometimes fails. Thors are good because they're awesome, same as banelings; sometimes I think Blizzard focuses too much on giving units roles though, instead of having cool concepts and putting them in.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 01:57:34
June 17 2012 01:55 GMT
#242
On June 17 2012 10:52 Birdie wrote:
Slightly offtopic but I should note that some SCII units are excellent. The baneling immediately comes to mind. A very awesome cool unit. SCII just needs more awesome cool units. The swarm host isn't very cool. Abduct is very cool. The tempest isn't very cool, the hellhound or whatever is OK but not great. Scouts in BW were not very cool, hence why they were never used much.

I consider hydralisks, zlings, rines, dragoons, stalkers, and zealots to be breadandbutter units where they don't need to be amazingly cool, but rather do their job well, but for tech units they need to be cool and awesome and powerful, which is where I feel SCII sometimes fails. Thors are good because they're awesome, same as banelings; sometimes I think Blizzard focuses too much on giving units roles though, instead of having cool concepts and putting them in.

Sshhh, people are gonna say baneling is a micmic of scourge, after all, BW invented suiciding units, you know, we've never seen that kind of units in history of warfare before.
urashimakt
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1591 Posts
June 17 2012 01:57 GMT
#243
On June 17 2012 10:55 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 10:52 Birdie wrote:
Slightly offtopic but I should note that some SCII units are excellent. The baneling immediately comes to mind. A very awesome cool unit. SCII just needs more awesome cool units. The swarm host isn't very cool. Abduct is very cool. The tempest isn't very cool, the hellhound or whatever is OK but not great. Scouts in BW were not very cool, hence why they were never used much.

I consider hydralisks, zlings, rines, dragoons, stalkers, and zealots to be breadandbutter units where they don't need to be amazingly cool, but rather do their job well, but for tech units they need to be cool and awesome and powerful, which is where I feel SCII sometimes fails. Thors are good because they're awesome, same as banelings; sometimes I think Blizzard focuses too much on giving units roles though, instead of having cool concepts and putting them in.

Sshhh, people are gonna say baneling is a micmic of scourge, after all, BW invented suiciding units, you know, you've never seen that kind of units in history of warfare before.

Preposterous. The baneling is a mimic of the original Infested Terran.
Who dat ninja?
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
June 17 2012 02:05 GMT
#244
On June 17 2012 10:52 Birdie wrote:
Slightly offtopic but I should note that some SCII units are excellent. The baneling immediately comes to mind. A very awesome cool unit. SCII just needs more awesome cool units. The swarm host isn't very cool. Abduct is very cool. The tempest isn't very cool, the hellhound or whatever is OK but not great. Scouts in BW were not very cool, hence why they were never used much.

I consider hydralisks, zlings, rines, dragoons, stalkers, and zealots to be breadandbutter units where they don't need to be amazingly cool, but rather do their job well, but for tech units they need to be cool and awesome and powerful, which is where I feel SCII sometimes fails. Thors are good because they're awesome, same as banelings; sometimes I think Blizzard focuses too much on giving units roles though, instead of having cool concepts and putting them in.


And here's evidence to just how subjective this whole thing is.

I hate the baneling imo. It makes early game ZvZ a nightmare, is a no skill a-move unit whose role would be so much better suited to the Lurker.

But that's just my opinion.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
ixi.genocide
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States981 Posts
June 17 2012 02:12 GMT
#245
On June 17 2012 11:05 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 10:52 Birdie wrote:
Slightly offtopic but I should note that some SCII units are excellent. The baneling immediately comes to mind. A very awesome cool unit. SCII just needs more awesome cool units. The swarm host isn't very cool. Abduct is very cool. The tempest isn't very cool, the hellhound or whatever is OK but not great. Scouts in BW were not very cool, hence why they were never used much.

I consider hydralisks, zlings, rines, dragoons, stalkers, and zealots to be breadandbutter units where they don't need to be amazingly cool, but rather do their job well, but for tech units they need to be cool and awesome and powerful, which is where I feel SCII sometimes fails. Thors are good because they're awesome, same as banelings; sometimes I think Blizzard focuses too much on giving units roles though, instead of having cool concepts and putting them in.


And here's evidence to just how subjective this whole thing is.

I hate the baneling imo. It makes early game ZvZ a nightmare, is a no skill a-move unit whose role would be so much better suited to the Lurker.

But that's just my opinion.


I hate the baneling as well. As a Z player it feels like the unit is so powerful that it kind of holds back the design of the Zerg race and justifies some of the overpowered aspects of the other races. A 1/2f unit that for 50/25 blows up, dealing massive amount of aoe damage is probably too good.
fuzzylogic44
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada2633 Posts
June 17 2012 02:16 GMT
#246
How pathetic would it look if for SC2's first expansion introduced units that were introduced in SC1's expansion 13 years ago?

They probably could have got away with one - either the reaver or the lurker, since they are so liked. But another thing to consider is that good untis in BW don't necessarily translate into good units in SC2.
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
June 17 2012 02:25 GMT
#247
Well my not quite so original idea is that the answer is exactly the reason blizzard keeps giving to this question when asked. The bw units that are not in sc2 just does not fit in, or fills a function that is already covered. They don't want to put the lurker in because they feel that it does not add a role that is missing. What good would the vulture, wraith or firebat be for terran in sc2? All the roles those units fill are already covered and you just end up with an unnecessary unit.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
June 17 2012 02:33 GMT
#248
People who think that BW units could easily be ported into SC2 and maintain their same stats, balance, usage, and micro have no understanding of game design. It's a different game guys; bringing in BW units won't make this game more like BW. In fact you'd probably just all complain the same way we do about the hydra: "omg why is it not exactly like BW?" It's because it's a different game.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
June 17 2012 03:02 GMT
#249
How about: after Legacy of the Void (third and last part of SC2), and after some time, Blizzard publishes a fully precise 3D-version of Broodwar? (existing fan mod or mods, will never get as precise as Blizz could make them)

The topmost reason for the need of these 3 parts of SC2 and the way they are designed is... money.
But I'm fine with that! Buying Broodwar for 5 bucks I think nowadays doesn't represent accurately how much I'd wish to payback to Blizzard for making it. Buying 3 modern games from them for ~50 bucks is more like it.

So it's okay, I'll pay, I think they deserve it for old times' sake, but please eventually just remake Broodwar in 3D and let it be.
On June 17 2012 11:05 Vindicare605 wrote:
I hate the baneling imo. It makes early game ZvZ a nightmare, is a no skill a-move unit
Ever heard of manually exploding a baneling while it's moving between multiple moving enemy units to catch them all in one hit? Few pro's today even have the tactical timing and reaction to pull this off correctly, but with Kespa elite now rising the skill, hopefully we are yet to see some baneling control like we've never seen before.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Roarer
Profile Joined December 2011
Hong Kong124 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 06:22:14
June 17 2012 03:09 GMT
#250
On June 17 2012 02:24 lorkac wrote:
If you listen to a lot of Browder's interviews he actually gave a lot of sideways answers to your question.

The main things that have stopped them from bringing them back is linked to the effectiveness, their desire for a linear design path, and their need for regulated succession of tech opportunities without causing overlap.

For example, let us take the Lurker. (Everyone's fave go to unit when talking about this)

Browder's team wants Zerg to have weak early game AA

What does this mean?

Zerglings, Roaches, and Banelings don't shoot up. Crawlers and Queens are stuck on creep.

The Hydralisk at hatch tech would break that race design preference by being a mobile anti-air unit during the early game.

Browder's team also wants for tech progression to be linear with fancier stuff being "up a notch" in tech.

So hatch tech gets you Roaches, Zerglings, and Banelings while lair tech gets you Hydras, Infestors, and Mutalisks.

The Hydras have to be Lair tech to give zerg a weak early game AA. So it would seam weird and non-linear to have Hydralisks AND Lurkers be available at the same tech--Lair Tech. So, much like Overseer and the Broodlord, the only logical place to put Lurkers would be Hive tech.

What did this cause?

I remember David Kim saying that it made the Lurker too weak in their testing. Why?

Because hive tech does not normally come until way deep into the game. The Lurker could no longer play the role people wanted it to play because at Hive tech, the Lurker was already the Unit lurkers would stall the game to get to.

In BW, Lurkers allowed you to be safe as you teched hard to defilers. Once you had Defilers and extra gas bases you were able to start pushing back. With the Lurker at Hive tech--it would turn from a defensive siege weapon with offensive capabilities based on timing attacks into a cloaked Hydralisk.

So why isn't the Lurker in the game?

Because of the combination of two philosophies that shoved the Lurker too high up the tech tree.

Is it easy to fix? Yes, technically, but it would a restructuring of the game.

Roaches and Hydralisks switch spots. Queen loses her AA ability becoming a purely melee unit while Hydralisks are slowed down even more off creep. (About the same speed as the queen off creep would suffice)

Lair tech would then lead to our first overlap issue. Roaches and Lurkers seems to both take up the "burrowed combat unit" slot at the same tech juncture. How do you resolve it?

You give us back the old roach and make the lurker move slow off creep (about as fast as the Hydralisk is now)

3 range, 2 armor, and 1 supply.

This creates a dynamic choice in unit composition and tactical space control.

Roaches would be really good at moving out into the map to do hit and runs. At lair tech they come late enough that marauders and Immortals will be online in time. The roaches will be a lot weaker (forcefields actually forcefields roaches) marines would actually be able to kite roaches, etc... but there will be more of them.

Lurkers would be slow units that you use to hold key positions At hydra Speed you're more likely to be keeping them where you are spreading creep while needing drop tech to actually be able to harass with them.

Why don't they do this? That I can't tell you. But I do know why they don't have the Lurker. At least, what I believe their reasons to be based off of how they talk about unit design in their interviews.

It isn't important that we have our own logical reasons for having certain units "back," what you need to figure out is why it is that Browder and his team reached the conclusion they did. They will never listen to your logic of "It would be cooler" or "In BW it was like _____" because at the end of the day those types of arguments and reasonings are subjective. Hech, I could complain that Command and Conquer was way more fun than BW and that we should bring in MORE a-move units like the collossus/mammoth tank.

Try thinking about things from Browder and his team's mindset, then see if there is a better way to present your case based on what it is that they're trying to do.

Personally? I reserve judgement on unit design and unit choices for when Void comes out. We already know that the release of the expansion will not only add units, but it has the options to remove units and completely redesign them as well. Once the Beta is over the release of HotS will show how much they are willing to change their game from expansion to expansion in an attempt to reach a certain level of perfection. We have at least one more reset coming after HotS, I'd rather wait for that before I whine about Protoss not really having a dynamic spellcaster outside of the Sentry...


This lurker analysis is what the community need to realize. Even if we put in the same unit in the game, it will not work out the way that we want unless the whole SC2 is revamp to copy the BW. And that's one of the reasons why Blizzard does not want to add those units into the game for the sake of adding them. This will just make the non-BW players think that the new game is just a new version of BW, and they will ask the same question, why would I play the new BW instead of the orginal one. They have no knowledge of BW and cannot tell much of the difference between the 2 games (SC2:BW vs SC:BW). The BW fans may cheer but the others will just take a look and turn away, especially for those who are not a fan of BW. Consequently, the fanbase of the new game will just remain the same, instead of expanding. Now, we add in the factor that the dynamic of the new game will be in fact different from BW, some of the BW fans might not even like it. They leave, and what we have left for the new game is just a shrinked BW fanbase. That is not what Blizzard wants, and that's why there must be something literally new in the game. We cannot simply hope for a BW2.0 to succeed as a new E-sports title. And the thing we used to cheer for will no longer exist in the new scene. The game developer have to find new things for players to cheer for, unfortunately, those might now be what you like, but to Blizzard, they will have more fans.

For those who are not just wanting BW 2.0, BW units maybe a good fit for SC2 in some situations, but we have to be the one who explains why to Blizzard. Just to quote lorkac once more:

+ Show Spoiler +
It isn't important that we have our own logical reasons for having certain units "back," what you need to figure out is why it is that Browder and his team reached the conclusion they did. They will never listen to your logic of "It would be cooler" or "In BW it was like _____" because at the end of the day those types of arguments and reasonings are subjective.


Just imagine if SC2 is the one to come out first and SC:BW is the sequent , and SC2 fans are asking to replace defiler with vipers, replacing lurkers with swarmhosts, bashing dragoons cuz they cannot blink and have no idea how to walk, shitting all over scouts. How will you feel, do you think such an argument is enough? If you think they are not, then you should understand why Blizzard is not buying these arguments

Colossus is not a great unit, but is reaver a better replacement? With the new path finding, will the sacrab be too strong? Will seeing the scarab always straight up hitting target kill the suspension? Will mass tightly packed zealots block the path of the scarabs?

My take on the swarm host vs lurker:
They both are good at controling space. However, they do it through different way. By spawning units, you can keep the opponent at bay but it gives the chance for the enemy to fire and retreat. The lurker do it through a straight up attack. The stragiht line attack can be very micro & positional dependent.
Swarm host give players more time to react while the lurker punishes reckless opponents harder. Swarm host can cut off retreat paths better than lurker and of course give some air support. On the other hand, lurkers are better at agressions than swarm hosts. If you use swarm hosts the way you use lurker in BW , you are gonna get a lot less out of them from attack.

In short, swarm host and lurker does the same thing through different ways, I do not think anyone of them have an edge over the other. It is more of a preference thing for someone to like it over the other one. In SC2 where terrible terrible damage is everywhere, swarm hosts maybe a better choice to implement to sprinkle in some longer and slower engagements.

Thors do serve a different role than goliaths ...they heavily punish ill-microed muta, and can be mass repaired (I did not count stomping FF here)

We have to take the active role to persuade Blizzard why those particular BW units should be there and those arguments are not just subjective opinions. Ultimately, we all want a better and bigger E-sports scene (at least for RTS). If the ideas we suggest are good for the scene, everyone would embrace them, no matter you are from BW or from SC2. Blizzard may not always make the best decision, but I am confident that they will always make good decisions to push the scene further. We should just discuss how the ideas would work and suggest them with open mind. Shooting down ideas just because of subjective opinions is never healthy. Stay objective and admit the difference between the new ideas and the original BW units.

On June 17 2012 04:14 Wildmoon wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Sometime people in this community are quite stupid if you ask me. They think just adding BW units to current SC2 and it will work without even thinking about it.
I don't need BW units but I need good unit. BW units are not always good for SC2. Swarmhost works really different from Lurker. Widow mine and Spider mine are not the same too. BW had so many flaws just like SC2. It's not some perfect game that you should copy everything from it. If SC2 is basically the same as BW we wouldn'thave TvT with mech vs bio which is like 2 different races playing each other like we have now and many things that are better than BW . SC2 is not BW. It has its good and bad. We have to move forward. I welcome BW units bck into SC2 but if they are needed not because some nostalgic reason.
Never argue with an idiot, cause they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience =﹏=
RmoteCntrld
Profile Joined June 2010
United States596 Posts
June 17 2012 03:11 GMT
#251
because they wont want to make BW with better graphics? they want SC2 to be its own game.
rezoacken
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2719 Posts
June 17 2012 03:23 GMT
#252
Because its not the same game.

Ddifferent mechanics, different engine different everything. I even think the lurker would be a terrible decision if directly transposed into SC2, especially since units have a tendency to form balls in SC2.
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 03:40:52
June 17 2012 03:30 GMT
#253
The reasoning that bringing a fan favorite unit back would leave it out of place and useless in SC2 is completely foolhardy. Sure, stats might be altered a bit, but it would be completely feasible. Opponents say it would require a restructuring of the game? Yet...the game is being resructured anyway because of the expansion. Hence the discussion resurfaces.

There are two kinds of Starcraft fans: those for whom the Lurker was their favorite unit in the game/favorite zerg unit (maybe more so than any other unit), and those who never heard of it and don't care if it was in the original.

Starcraft 2 needs more splash damage, not less. It's already bad enough that the Colossus can't one-shot bio and tanks have been almost completely neutered.

The community needs to start thinking like game designers (dangerous, I know, but hear me out). You all assume that because things are the way they are in WoL, that HotS has to maintain the status quo. That is not so.

Micro potential could be improved in a month or so, if they wanted to.
Macro mechanics could be eliminated overnight, and the game would have more back and forth, and comebacks would be more feasible.
Blizzard could declare they've decided to balance the game around very open maps, rather than using the closed off map pool as a crutch for hyper concentrated deathballs.
Detection could become less of a commodity to give stealthy units like Roaches/Lurkers/Banes/DTs more excitement. Why are Ravens so rare? Because scan is now a commodity where it used to be a precious resource in BW.

The assertion that reavers and lurkers and spider mines would be imbalanced in SC2 is ridiculous for two reasons. First, it's silly because they were all imbalanced in BW and that's what made it great. Secondly, it's silly because you exaggerate the effort required to make adjustments to the units for SC2. You would either tweak the damage or fix unit spacing to not overlap, and you're good to go. I believe the SC2BW guy has even developed the inconsistent Reaver shot and vulture patrol micro himself - how hard for Blizzard's competent team could that be?

Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 03:38:34
June 17 2012 03:37 GMT
#254
On June 17 2012 12:30 0neder wrote:
The reasoning that bringing a fan favorite unit back would leave it out of place and useless in SC2 is completely foolhardy. Sure, stats might be altered a bit, but it would be completely feasible. Opponents say it would require a restructuring of the game? OH WAIT, the game is being resructured anyway because of the expansion. Hence the discussion resurfaces.

There are two kinds of Starcraft fans: those for whom the Lurker was their favorite unit in the game/favorite zerg unit (maybe more so than any other unit), and those who never heard of it and don't care if it was in the original.

Starcraft 2 needs more splash damage, not less. It's already bad enough that the Colossus can't one-shot bio and tanks have been almost completely neutered.


Woah now!

This is the exact sort of subjective statement this entire thread is filled with. That sentence I bolded is simply YOUR opinion and there's plenty of people that would disagree whole heartedly with it.

Having an opinion is fine, trying to use it to justify huge sweeping changes to core gameplay just to suit it is not ok.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
rysecake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2632 Posts
June 17 2012 03:48 GMT
#255
On June 17 2012 12:02 figq wrote:
How about: after Legacy of the Void (third and last part of SC2), and after some time, Blizzard publishes a fully precise 3D-version of Broodwar? (existing fan mod or mods, will never get as precise as Blizz could make them)

The topmost reason for the need of these 3 parts of SC2 and the way they are designed is... money.
But I'm fine with that! Buying Broodwar for 5 bucks I think nowadays doesn't represent accurately how much I'd wish to payback to Blizzard for making it. Buying 3 modern games from them for ~50 bucks is more like it.

So it's okay, I'll pay, I think they deserve it for old times' sake, but please eventually just remake Broodwar in 3D and let it be.
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 11:05 Vindicare605 wrote:
I hate the baneling imo. It makes early game ZvZ a nightmare, is a no skill a-move unit
Ever heard of manually exploding a baneling while it's moving between multiple moving enemy units to catch them all in one hit? Few pro's today even have the tactical timing and reaction to pull this off correctly, but with Kespa elite now rising the skill, hopefully we are yet to see some baneling control like we've never seen before.


but why not just play bw then?

There's actually a custom mod called sc2bw already anyway. if ur looking for the sc2 graphics version of bw
The Notorious Winkles
vesicular
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1310 Posts
June 17 2012 03:48 GMT
#256
So much wrong with this thread, but I'm sure when LotV comes out most if not all of the original units will be available to mod makers. Then anyone can create a campaign that mimics BW for those that want it and Blizz won't have to do a thing. "Problem" solved.
STX Fighting!
Nazza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1654 Posts
June 17 2012 03:57 GMT
#257
On June 17 2012 12:30 0neder wrote:
The reasoning that bringing a fan favorite unit back would leave it out of place and useless in SC2 is completely foolhardy. Sure, stats might be altered a bit, but it would be completely feasible. Opponents say it would require a restructuring of the game? Yet...the game is being resructured anyway because of the expansion. Hence the discussion resurfaces.

There are two kinds of Starcraft fans: those for whom the Lurker was their favorite unit in the game/favorite zerg unit (maybe more so than any other unit), and those who never heard of it and don't care if it was in the original.

Starcraft 2 needs more splash damage, not less. It's already bad enough that the Colossus can't one-shot bio and tanks have been almost completely neutered.

The community needs to start thinking like game designers (dangerous, I know, but hear me out). You all assume that because things are the way they are in WoL, that HotS has to maintain the status quo. That is not so.

Micro potential could be improved in a month or so, if they wanted to.
Macro mechanics could be eliminated overnight, and the game would have more back and forth, and comebacks would be more feasible.
Blizzard could declare they've decided to balance the game around very open maps, rather than using the closed off map pool as a crutch for hyper concentrated deathballs.
Detection could become less of a commodity to give stealthy units like Roaches/Lurkers/Banes/DTs more excitement. Why are Ravens so rare? Because scan is now a commodity where it used to be a precious resource in BW.

The assertion that reavers and lurkers and spider mines would be imbalanced in SC2 is ridiculous for two reasons. First, it's silly because they were all imbalanced in BW and that's what made it great. Secondly, it's silly because you exaggerate the effort required to make adjustments to the units for SC2. You would either tweak the damage or fix unit spacing to not overlap, and you're good to go. I believe the SC2BW guy has even developed the inconsistent Reaver shot and vulture patrol micro himself - how hard for Blizzard's competent team could that be?



It's not that you need more splash damage, it's that you need more map control. Units that, if the other player attacked into, would be extremely cost inefficient. Siege Tanks up a cliff, for example. The problem with the colossus is that it is really mobile for its damage output.
No one ever remembers second place, eh? eh? GIVE ME COMMAND
asiantraceur
Profile Joined April 2012
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 04:05:52
June 17 2012 04:03 GMT
#258
I really wish BW had stayed more popular but I guess people want better graphics xD
But anyways can't really re-add in BW units cuz then people will be like "You dumb Blizzard? Why did you take them out in the first place" BW units were really awesome tho so I guess they want to kinda imitate them...Loved so many BW units and abilities I love the old queen with infest and ensnare and brood lord just doesnt match up to spawn broodling...lurker vs marine was one of the best things ever...And who can forget
Reaver Reaver Reaver

Blizz should re release BW with awesome graphics to get it more popular :D

Oh and my anit-air sucks now that I dont have scourge lol
SC:BW
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
June 17 2012 04:08 GMT
#259
On June 17 2012 12:48 rysecake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 12:02 figq wrote:
How about: after Legacy of the Void (third and last part of SC2), and after some time, Blizzard publishes a fully precise 3D-version of Broodwar? (existing fan mod or mods, will never get as precise as Blizz could make them)

The topmost reason for the need of these 3 parts of SC2 and the way they are designed is... money.
But I'm fine with that! Buying Broodwar for 5 bucks I think nowadays doesn't represent accurately how much I'd wish to payback to Blizzard for making it. Buying 3 modern games from them for ~50 bucks is more like it.

So it's okay, I'll pay, I think they deserve it for old times' sake, but please eventually just remake Broodwar in 3D and let it be.
On June 17 2012 11:05 Vindicare605 wrote:
I hate the baneling imo. It makes early game ZvZ a nightmare, is a no skill a-move unit
Ever heard of manually exploding a baneling while it's moving between multiple moving enemy units to catch them all in one hit? Few pro's today even have the tactical timing and reaction to pull this off correctly, but with Kespa elite now rising the skill, hopefully we are yet to see some baneling control like we've never seen before.


but why not just play bw then?

There's actually a custom mod called sc2bw already anyway. if ur looking for the sc2 graphics version of bw
They need to make BW look like a state of the art game, for those - surprisingly many - fans of gaming who don't take a game seriously, because "it looks like some cell phone java game". Also, they need to add stuff like observer information tabs, control groups, selecting workers to count them, total harvester count, total kills count etc. Observing in BW is too limited for nowadays standards.

As I said, no custom mods will ever be precise enough. Blizzard needs to do it themselves, and rework the core engine for that purpose too. 3D Broodwar will be so different from SC2 that it should not even be called a mod, because of different core engine concepts.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 04:11:27
June 17 2012 04:09 GMT
#260
On June 17 2012 12:37 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 12:30 0neder wrote:
The reasoning that bringing a fan favorite unit back would leave it out of place and useless in SC2 is completely foolhardy. Sure, stats might be altered a bit, but it would be completely feasible. Opponents say it would require a restructuring of the game? OH WAIT, the game is being resructured anyway because of the expansion. Hence the discussion resurfaces.

There are two kinds of Starcraft fans: those for whom the Lurker was their favorite unit in the game/favorite zerg unit (maybe more so than any other unit), and those who never heard of it and don't care if it was in the original.

Starcraft 2 needs more splash damage, not less. It's already bad enough that the Colossus can't one-shot bio and tanks have been almost completely neutered.


Woah now!

This is the exact sort of subjective statement this entire thread is filled with. That sentence I bolded is simply YOUR opinion and there's plenty of people that would disagree whole heartedly with it.

Having an opinion is fine, trying to use it to justify huge sweeping changes to core gameplay just to suit it is not ok.

My friend, with all due respect how familiar are you with BW? It was based around a handful of ridiculously overpowered splash units: Tanks, lurkers, corsairs, psionic storm, plague, and what players did to abuse them and overcome them. If you take the most exciting moments in BW gameplay, almost all of them involve splash damage.

What made GGaemo's mouth drop open? OP Splash Damage.


What made people wonder how Jangbi had the superhuman ability to manually cast all these storms? OP Splash Damage.


What rewarded one of the best microers in the world with killing 10-16 supply with only 2 zealots? OP Splash Damage.


What made this imbalanced reaver so exciting, even at the expense of low level players? OP Splash damage.


What does OP Splash Damage like Lurkers do? It promotes ridiculous micro skill development (wouldn't you like to see more opportunities for SC2 careers to take off like marineking's? then put in more splash damage)


Please tell me objectively why reducing splash damage is better for spectating excitement or players. Because objectively, we know that 'terrible terrible splash damage' is what makes SC exciting and is one of the main reasons it survived for so long. The more splash, the more risk, the more excitement. We can debate about units, but please don't say that reducing splash damage does not objectively hurt SC2's excitement for fans.



Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 43 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 20h 3m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mcanning 334
StarCraft: Brood War
Flash 4411
Barracks 2569
Jaedong 2192
Mini 1475
BeSt 1304
EffOrt 916
Larva 534
Stork 471
Soma 442
firebathero 406
[ Show more ]
Snow 363
Hyun 148
Free 143
Rush 106
Mind 97
Backho 94
Pusan 78
ZerO 71
Sharp 71
TY 68
ToSsGirL 55
soO 49
sas.Sziky 46
Shinee 32
Movie 32
sorry 25
zelot 25
scan(afreeca) 20
sSak 16
SilentControl 10
Yoon 9
Terrorterran 9
Shine 8
Bale 7
ivOry 3
Zeus 0
Dota 2
syndereN582
XcaliburYe386
420jenkins345
League of Legends
Dendi1111
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1897
byalli389
markeloff95
Other Games
singsing3109
B2W.Neo1454
hiko1445
crisheroes448
ZerO(Twitch)23
Rex7
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 11
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV554
League of Legends
• Nemesis5546
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
20h 3m
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
1d 20h
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.