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Reluctance to Re-Introduce BW-Units - Page 15

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Cybren
Profile Joined February 2010
United States206 Posts
June 17 2012 06:00 GMT
#281
The bigger problem is that almost all the new units in wol and hots are just reskins from bw, or units that had their abilities shuffled.

It seems they're exploring the same design space without pushing anything
The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
June 17 2012 06:08 GMT
#282
On June 17 2012 15:00 Cybren wrote:
The bigger problem is that almost all the new units in wol and hots are just reskins from bw, or units that had their abilities shuffled.

It seems they're exploring the same design space without pushing anything

Well said! The problem is that the new mechanics in SC2 make certain "core abilites" from BW extremely OP. Area effects really need to be adjusted (like the siege tank damage was) and some effects are totally OP in any form in SC2: Dark Swarm, Recall (from multiple units), Stasis Field. They are all abilities which dont deal damage, but which would be too dangerous to have in SC2 with the tight unit formations.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
Doc Daneeka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States577 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 06:30:47
June 17 2012 06:15 GMT
#283
On June 17 2012 14:58 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 14:46 Doc Daneeka wrote:
if all the units they introduce in the expansions are just the brood war units that were cut from wings of liberty, i would feel pretty ripped off. they're trying to fill those roles with new game mechanics. if it doesn't work out and sc2 fails as an e-sport and blah blah blah, so be it.

This is where we disagree. I think SC2 is a blast to play (i'm silver), but it sucks to watch. But I don't want to play it, I want to watch a great RTS e-sport. I understand if you have the opposite opinion.


i have fun with both actually. but like, i was watching a game just now, the PL? proleague? re-streamed by nanashin, i forget who was playing but it was a TvP and the micro in this game was insane and a blast to watch. the engagements were very back and forth, both armies were doing a lot of pulling out and disengaging before the battle tipped too overwhelmingly in one player's favor. a lot of SC2 is more boring to watch than BW, i'll admit, but i think it comes down to one thing: foreigners suck at micro in SC2 right now, because when koreans and especially BW pros play it's way more fun to watch. i think SC2 requires the same amount of APM as brood war, just it's less in the mechanical limitations of the user interface and pathing idiosyncracies of the units, and more in keeping up with the extremely fast pace of battle. it's like it has the opposite problem of BW, you have to split and move units away from the wrong parts of the battle more so than you need to bring them into the right parts of the battle like in BW.

edit: and yeah i think there probably are some imbalances in SC2 right now, but it's hard to tell for sure when the game is so much younger than BW what imbalances are surmountable by strategies that haven't been developed yet and what imbalances are permanently built into the game.
payed off security
TeamBanished
Profile Joined September 2011
United States301 Posts
June 17 2012 06:17 GMT
#284
I am worried about Legacy of the Void....
For Aiur
fer
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada375 Posts
June 17 2012 06:33 GMT
#285
Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War?

Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above.
WellPlayed.org <3
TechNoTrance
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada1007 Posts
June 17 2012 06:38 GMT
#286
On June 17 2012 14:56 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 14:45 TechNoTrance wrote:
On June 17 2012 13:20 0neder wrote:
On June 17 2012 13:18 TechNoTrance wrote:
This isn't BW 2.0. It is a different game, with different units, with different roles. You can't just throw the reaver into the protoss army, because they already have HT and colossi.

Nobody's suggesting that the colossus and reaver would coexist. They say that the colossus should become more interesting (eg more extreme strengths/weaknesses) and more legible.


I know that. It was an example... My point being that there is no point reintroducing units that have no role in this game. If they wanted to make BW with better graphics they could have, but they didn't. They made a new game.

There would be a point because it would increase legibility. Colossi are bad for spectating legibility. Obviously if the colossus was replaced, its replacement would replace its role, so there would be a point. Notice I didn't say put the reaver in. I don't care if the reaver returns, but the colossus as a unit should be replaced for legibility and interest if it isn't at least improved for excitement.


This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 06:49:30
June 17 2012 06:48 GMT
#287
On June 17 2012 15:33 fer wrote:
Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War?

Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above.

If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2.

As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff
creep mechanic
creep drop
improved nydus mechanics
contaminate
roach regen
burrow move
spine/spore crawlers
warp in
warp prism
guardian shield
void rays /mechanic
graviton beam
maybe the medivac
reapers (pre nerf)
lowering depots
salvage
bunker capacity
planetary fortress
orbital command
viking
banelings

That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence.

On June 17 2012 15:38 TechNoTrance wrote:
This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though.

This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus.
MugenXBanksy
Profile Joined April 2011
United States479 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 06:59:56
June 17 2012 06:56 GMT
#288
[image loading]

that will be all
we all hope to be like whitera one day
Doc Daneeka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States577 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 07:12:55
June 17 2012 07:09 GMT
#289
On June 17 2012 15:56 MugenXBanksy wrote:
[image loading]

that will be all



hey maybe entomb could work against units instead of minerals? as in, freeze units in place, with the shield having hit points, so it's like maelstrom, but you can attack them to get rid of the shield - not sure that'd be an efficient use of apm, but you COULD use it to freeze workers in place, essentially accomplishing the same thing as the current entomb, and also being useful in battle. but maybe this would be OP, and overlap a bit with vortex. just a thought.

BUT it would basically be making the oracle into a weaker arbiter, cloak that costs energy and stasis that is breakable by attacking it. but it'd be just like BW AMIRIGHT?
payed off security
Samp
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada783 Posts
June 17 2012 07:21 GMT
#290
I think that with the units like the Swarm Host, which is "kind of" like the Lurker, they should just bring back the old one from BW.
Banelings, "They're cute, they live in a nest". -Artosis
MugenXBanksy
Profile Joined April 2011
United States479 Posts
June 17 2012 07:31 GMT
#291
On June 17 2012 16:09 Doc Daneeka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 15:56 MugenXBanksy wrote:
[image loading]

that will be all



hey maybe entomb could work against units instead of minerals? as in, freeze units in place, with the shield having hit points, so it's like maelstrom, but you can attack them to get rid of the shield - not sure that'd be an efficient use of apm, but you COULD use it to freeze workers in place, essentially accomplishing the same thing as the current entomb, and also being useful in battle. but maybe this would be OP, and overlap a bit with vortex. just a thought.

BUT it would basically be making the oracle into a weaker arbiter, cloak that costs energy and stasis that is breakable by attacking it. but it'd be just like BW AMIRIGHT?



I point was a more efficient way to deal with mass muta issues yes its kind of dumb and less skill but storm is soo hit and miss unless you always have them exactly where you need them and maelstrom combo'd with storm just makes soo much sense imo, i just don't like mutas lol, and leaving stalkers/archons or the magic johnson shot storms aren't always gonna work and i don't wanna you know throw a billion cannons everywhere
we all hope to be like whitera one day
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16057 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 07:33:12
June 17 2012 07:32 GMT
#292
On June 17 2012 16:21 Samp wrote:
I think that with the units like the Swarm Host, which is "kind of" like the Lurker, they should just bring back the old one from BW.


They aren't similar at all in how they function.

At all.

One has AA the other has splash.

Try using the Swarm Host like a Lurker once beta opens and you'll understand just how different the two units are. The ONLY thing they have in common is the burrow attack mechanic.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
pb.fcnz
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Canada101 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 07:55:25
June 17 2012 07:52 GMT
#293
I've only read the first two pages so this argument might have been made but, I'm curious to know from people who've played them, how blizzard has dealt with this in Warcraft? I would assume, simply on a lore basis, that re-introducing a good part of the BW units would make sense, no? Did they carry over most units in WC? (I know 2 races were added from 2->3 but as far as humans/orc go?)

Edit: And by lore I mean, does the storyline from SC2 follow SC:BW time-wise? How do they explain the sudden, magic change in units out of nowhere? Vulture went out of production at space-age-Ford motors? I didn't touch the SC2 SP yet, not a fan of single player, never actually finished SC or BW even though I first played the game a few months after SC's release lol (I barely ever finish SP games, they bore me to death), so enlighten me here :o
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
June 17 2012 07:55 GMT
#294
On June 17 2012 15:48 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 15:33 fer wrote:
Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War?

Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above.

If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2.

As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff
creep mechanic
creep drop
improved nydus mechanics
contaminate
roach regen
burrow move
spine/spore crawlers
warp in
warp prism
guardian shield
void rays /mechanic
graviton beam
maybe the medivac
reapers (pre nerf)
lowering depots
salvage
bunker capacity
planetary fortress
orbital command
viking
banelings

That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence.

Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 15:38 TechNoTrance wrote:
This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though.

This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus.


You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic.
MMA: The true King of Wings
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
June 17 2012 07:57 GMT
#295
On June 17 2012 16:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 15:48 0neder wrote:
On June 17 2012 15:33 fer wrote:
Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War?

Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above.

If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2.

As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff
creep mechanic
creep drop
improved nydus mechanics
contaminate
roach regen
burrow move
spine/spore crawlers
warp in
warp prism
guardian shield
void rays /mechanic
graviton beam
maybe the medivac
reapers (pre nerf)
lowering depots
salvage
bunker capacity
planetary fortress
orbital command
viking
banelings

That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence.

On June 17 2012 15:38 TechNoTrance wrote:
This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though.

This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus.


You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic.


I disagree about nydus, salvage, banelings, void-rays, orbital.

Nydus was much more heavily utilized in BW. In fact it was seen in late-game 100% of the time.

Salvage makes bunkers too safe.

Banelings are no where near as useful as lurkers.

Void Rays are Void Rays.

Orbital, can't kill comsat, + no decision making on when to get detection.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
June 17 2012 08:01 GMT
#296
On June 17 2012 16:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 15:48 0neder wrote:
On June 17 2012 15:33 fer wrote:
Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War?

Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above.

If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2.

As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff
creep mechanic
creep drop
improved nydus mechanics
contaminate
roach regen
burrow move
spine/spore crawlers
warp in
warp prism
guardian shield
void rays /mechanic
graviton beam
maybe the medivac
reapers (pre nerf)
lowering depots
salvage
bunker capacity
planetary fortress
orbital command
viking
banelings

That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence.

On June 17 2012 15:38 TechNoTrance wrote:
This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though.

This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus.


You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic.

I didn't list it on purpose because I feel it gives terran too much strategic flexibility and it's too easy to adapt to anything. All races should at least have to scout well, make good reads and anticipate things. All races should be able to be caught off guard.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
June 17 2012 08:03 GMT
#297
On June 17 2012 16:57 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 16:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On June 17 2012 15:48 0neder wrote:
On June 17 2012 15:33 fer wrote:
Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War?

Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above.

If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2.

As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff
creep mechanic
creep drop
improved nydus mechanics
contaminate
roach regen
burrow move
spine/spore crawlers
warp in
warp prism
guardian shield
void rays /mechanic
graviton beam
maybe the medivac
reapers (pre nerf)
lowering depots
salvage
bunker capacity
planetary fortress
orbital command
viking
banelings

That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence.

On June 17 2012 15:38 TechNoTrance wrote:
This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though.

This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus.


You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic.


I disagree about nydus, salvage, banelings, void-rays, orbital.

Nydus was much more heavily utilized in BW. In fact it was seen in late-game 100% of the time.

Salvage makes bunkers too safe.

Banelings are no where near as useful as lurkers.

Void Rays are Void Rays.

Orbital, can't kill comsat, + no decision making on when to get detection.

I agree that Salvage needs a nerf, and I also think an orbital should be a killable add-on.
Nydus is still good, I think maps just aren't big enough yet to promote them as much.
Roarer
Profile Joined December 2011
Hong Kong124 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 08:10:59
June 17 2012 08:10 GMT
#298
On June 17 2012 16:52 pb.fcnz wrote:
I've only read the first two pages so this argument might have been made but, I'm curious to know from people who've played them, how blizzard has dealt with this in Warcraft? I would assume, simply on a lore basis, that re-introducing a good part of the BW units would make sense, no? Did they carry over most units in WC? (I know 2 races were added from 2->3 but as far as humans/orc go?)

Edit: And by lore I mean, does the storyline from SC2 follow SC:BW time-wise? How do they explain the sudden, magic change in units out of nowhere? Vulture went out of production at space-age-Ford motors? I didn't touch the SC2 SP yet, not a fan of single player, never actually finished SC or BW even though I first played the game a few months after SC's release lol (I barely ever finish SP games, they bore me to death), so enlighten me here :o


From Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3, the human and Orc races units undergone HUGE changes. First, all the navy units were removed. The Archer/ Axe thrower were totally removed(back up by lore). Ogre and Ogre mages for the orcs are completely gone. (back up by lore) Paladin and Archmage of the Human were turn into heroes. The air units of warcraft 2 are all removed. I know that the orc Dragons removal are according to lore, cuz the orcs lost control over the red dragon queen. I am not sure if the gryphon rider are gone cuz of lore though.

Blizzard add a tons of new units which are took out from the lore, especially spell casters, I do not think any of the spell casters in warcraft 3 are from warcraft 2 (except the new archmage is a little bit like the old mage). Basically there are only 2 units of each race are the same as warcraft 2: the footman (grunt) and the workers. Everything else is a complete overhaul. The battle system/UI/Buildings, everyhting is completely new.
Never argue with an idiot, cause they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience =﹏=
maartendq
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Belgium3115 Posts
June 17 2012 08:10 GMT
#299
On June 17 2012 12:30 0neder wrote:
The reasoning that bringing a fan favorite unit back would leave it out of place and useless in SC2 is completely foolhardy. Sure, stats might be altered a bit, but it would be completely feasible. Opponents say it would require a restructuring of the game? Yet...the game is being resructured anyway because of the expansion. Hence the discussion resurfaces.

There are two kinds of Starcraft fans: those for whom the Lurker was their favorite unit in the game/favorite zerg unit (maybe more so than any other unit), and those who never heard of it and don't care if it was in the original.

Starcraft 2 needs more splash damage, not less. It's already bad enough that the Colossus can't one-shot bio and tanks have been almost completely neutered.

The community needs to start thinking like game designers (dangerous, I know, but hear me out). You all assume that because things are the way they are in WoL, that HotS has to maintain the status quo. That is not so.

Micro potential could be improved in a month or so, if they wanted to.
Macro mechanics could be eliminated overnight, and the game would have more back and forth, and comebacks would be more feasible.
Blizzard could declare they've decided to balance the game around very open maps, rather than using the closed off map pool as a crutch for hyper concentrated deathballs.
Detection could become less of a commodity to give stealthy units like Roaches/Lurkers/Banes/DTs more excitement. Why are Ravens so rare? Because scan is now a commodity where it used to be a precious resource in BW.

The assertion that reavers and lurkers and spider mines would be imbalanced in SC2 is ridiculous for two reasons. First, it's silly because they were all imbalanced in BW and that's what made it great. Secondly, it's silly because you exaggerate the effort required to make adjustments to the units for SC2. You would either tweak the damage or fix unit spacing to not overlap, and you're good to go. I believe the SC2BW guy has even developed the inconsistent Reaver shot and vulture patrol micro himself - how hard for Blizzard's competent team could that be?


Scan a precious resource in BW? AFAIK, players like Flash scan all the time, their detection comes from missile turrets and science vessels.
MugenXBanksy
Profile Joined April 2011
United States479 Posts
June 17 2012 08:16 GMT
#300
On June 17 2012 16:57 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2012 16:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On June 17 2012 15:48 0neder wrote:
On June 17 2012 15:33 fer wrote:
Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War?

Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above.

If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2.

As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff
creep mechanic
creep drop
improved nydus mechanics
contaminate
roach regen
burrow move
spine/spore crawlers
warp in
warp prism
guardian shield
void rays /mechanic
graviton beam
maybe the medivac
reapers (pre nerf)
lowering depots
salvage
bunker capacity
planetary fortress
orbital command
viking
banelings

That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence.

On June 17 2012 15:38 TechNoTrance wrote:
This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though.

This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus.


You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic.


I disagree about nydus, salvage, banelings, void-rays, orbital.

Nydus was much more heavily utilized in BW. In fact it was seen in late-game 100% of the time.

Salvage makes bunkers too safe.

Banelings are no where near as useful as lurkers.

Void Rays are Void Rays.

Orbital, can't kill comsat, + no decision making on when to get detection.



agreed,
Nydus gets used as likea gimmick if your opponent cannons you in or some dumb shit like that only time i have ever seen it and even then 99% of the time they can fix that with spines and safely get out without the cannons even hurting them or just mass muta and make someone hate themselves

Bunkers, still waiting on that bunker patch for all we know terrans could have entire bunker economys gaining minerals interest they got mules already thats a extra source of income
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


baneling can be cute sometimes most of the time herpderp or give zergs heart attacks because they micro'd their lings wrong a second too late

void rays aka flying guns

herp derp get ride of mules orbital makes sense again or limit mules per minute terrans skimp on workers anyways T_T

medivac imba in large quantitys

we all hope to be like whitera one day
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