EPTIt seems they're exploring the same design space without pushing anything
Reluctance to Re-Introduce BW-Units - Page 15
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Cybren
United States206 Posts
It seems they're exploring the same design space without pushing anything | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:00 Cybren wrote: The bigger problem is that almost all the new units in wol and hots are just reskins from bw, or units that had their abilities shuffled. It seems they're exploring the same design space without pushing anything Well said! The problem is that the new mechanics in SC2 make certain "core abilites" from BW extremely OP. Area effects really need to be adjusted (like the siege tank damage was) and some effects are totally OP in any form in SC2: Dark Swarm, Recall (from multiple units), Stasis Field. They are all abilities which dont deal damage, but which would be too dangerous to have in SC2 with the tight unit formations. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:58 0neder wrote: This is where we disagree. I think SC2 is a blast to play (i'm silver), but it sucks to watch. But I don't want to play it, I want to watch a great RTS e-sport. I understand if you have the opposite opinion. i have fun with both actually. but like, i was watching a game just now, the PL? proleague? re-streamed by nanashin, i forget who was playing but it was a TvP and the micro in this game was insane and a blast to watch. the engagements were very back and forth, both armies were doing a lot of pulling out and disengaging before the battle tipped too overwhelmingly in one player's favor. a lot of SC2 is more boring to watch than BW, i'll admit, but i think it comes down to one thing: foreigners suck at micro in SC2 right now, because when koreans and especially BW pros play it's way more fun to watch. i think SC2 requires the same amount of APM as brood war, just it's less in the mechanical limitations of the user interface and pathing idiosyncracies of the units, and more in keeping up with the extremely fast pace of battle. it's like it has the opposite problem of BW, you have to split and move units away from the wrong parts of the battle more so than you need to bring them into the right parts of the battle like in BW. edit: and yeah i think there probably are some imbalances in SC2 right now, but it's hard to tell for sure when the game is so much younger than BW what imbalances are surmountable by strategies that haven't been developed yet and what imbalances are permanently built into the game. | ||
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TeamBanished
United States301 Posts
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fer
Canada375 Posts
Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above. | ||
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TechNoTrance
Canada1007 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:56 0neder wrote: There would be a point because it would increase legibility. Colossi are bad for spectating legibility. Obviously if the colossus was replaced, its replacement would replace its role, so there would be a point. Notice I didn't say put the reaver in. I don't care if the reaver returns, but the colossus as a unit should be replaced for legibility and interest if it isn't at least improved for excitement. This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:33 fer wrote: Why would they want to reintroduce old units from an old game? Did you by chance miss that everyone is abandoning Brood War? Your statements come across as incredibly biased, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that's what blinded you from the above. If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2. As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff creep mechanic creep drop improved nydus mechanics contaminate roach regen burrow move spine/spore crawlers warp in warp prism guardian shield void rays /mechanic graviton beam maybe the medivac reapers (pre nerf) lowering depots salvage bunker capacity planetary fortress orbital command viking banelings That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence. On June 17 2012 15:38 TechNoTrance wrote: This thread isn't about the validity of the colossus though. This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus. | ||
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MugenXBanksy
United States479 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PLpVn.jpg) that will be all | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:56 MugenXBanksy wrote: that will be all hey maybe entomb could work against units instead of minerals? as in, freeze units in place, with the shield having hit points, so it's like maelstrom, but you can attack them to get rid of the shield - not sure that'd be an efficient use of apm, but you COULD use it to freeze workers in place, essentially accomplishing the same thing as the current entomb, and also being useful in battle. but maybe this would be OP, and overlap a bit with vortex. just a thought. BUT it would basically be making the oracle into a weaker arbiter, cloak that costs energy and stasis that is breakable by attacking it. but it'd be just like BW AMIRIGHT? | ||
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Samp
Canada783 Posts
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MugenXBanksy
United States479 Posts
On June 17 2012 16:09 Doc Daneeka wrote: hey maybe entomb could work against units instead of minerals? as in, freeze units in place, with the shield having hit points, so it's like maelstrom, but you can attack them to get rid of the shield - not sure that'd be an efficient use of apm, but you COULD use it to freeze workers in place, essentially accomplishing the same thing as the current entomb, and also being useful in battle. but maybe this would be OP, and overlap a bit with vortex. just a thought. BUT it would basically be making the oracle into a weaker arbiter, cloak that costs energy and stasis that is breakable by attacking it. but it'd be just like BW AMIRIGHT? I point was a more efficient way to deal with mass muta issues yes its kind of dumb and less skill but storm is soo hit and miss unless you always have them exactly where you need them and maelstrom combo'd with storm just makes soo much sense imo, i just don't like mutas lol, and leaving stalkers/archons or the magic johnson shot storms aren't always gonna work and i don't wanna you know throw a billion cannons everywhere | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On June 17 2012 16:21 Samp wrote: I think that with the units like the Swarm Host, which is "kind of" like the Lurker, they should just bring back the old one from BW. They aren't similar at all in how they function. At all. One has AA the other has splash. Try using the Swarm Host like a Lurker once beta opens and you'll understand just how different the two units are. The ONLY thing they have in common is the burrow attack mechanic. | ||
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pb.fcnz
Canada101 Posts
Edit: And by lore I mean, does the storyline from SC2 follow SC:BW time-wise? How do they explain the sudden, magic change in units out of nowhere? Vulture went out of production at space-age-Ford motors? I didn't touch the SC2 SP yet, not a fan of single player, never actually finished SC or BW even though I first played the game a few months after SC's release lol (I barely ever finish SP games, they bore me to death), so enlighten me here :o | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:48 0neder wrote: If you're referring to me, then I am not blind. I'm a designer who wants sc2's game design to be improved. I can be objective. Just because I like BW doesn't mean I blindly want it copy-pasted into SC2. As an example, let me highlight what I see as successes of SC2 NEW stuff creep mechanic creep drop improved nydus mechanics contaminate roach regen burrow move spine/spore crawlers warp in warp prism guardian shield void rays /mechanic graviton beam maybe the medivac reapers (pre nerf) lowering depots salvage bunker capacity planetary fortress orbital command viking banelings That's a lot of new stuff that has been wildly successful. But there is still much to improve. Let's not be content if we want sc2 to last a decade and have two expansions to influence. This thread is about the game design and units of HotS, which includes the Colossus. You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 17 2012 16:55 SarcasmMonster wrote: You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic. I disagree about nydus, salvage, banelings, void-rays, orbital. Nydus was much more heavily utilized in BW. In fact it was seen in late-game 100% of the time. Salvage makes bunkers too safe. Banelings are no where near as useful as lurkers. Void Rays are Void Rays. Orbital, can't kill comsat, + no decision making on when to get detection. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On June 17 2012 16:55 SarcasmMonster wrote: You forgot my favorite addition: how addons work in SC2. Stuff like addon-swapping can really help tweak and optimize builds in different directions. Sniping addons is a very common harass tactic. I didn't list it on purpose because I feel it gives terran too much strategic flexibility and it's too easy to adapt to anything. All races should at least have to scout well, make good reads and anticipate things. All races should be able to be caught off guard. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On June 17 2012 16:57 sluggaslamoo wrote: I disagree about nydus, salvage, banelings, void-rays, orbital. Nydus was much more heavily utilized in BW. In fact it was seen in late-game 100% of the time. Salvage makes bunkers too safe. Banelings are no where near as useful as lurkers. Void Rays are Void Rays. Orbital, can't kill comsat, + no decision making on when to get detection. I agree that Salvage needs a nerf, and I also think an orbital should be a killable add-on. Nydus is still good, I think maps just aren't big enough yet to promote them as much. | ||
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Roarer
Hong Kong124 Posts
On June 17 2012 16:52 pb.fcnz wrote: I've only read the first two pages so this argument might have been made but, I'm curious to know from people who've played them, how blizzard has dealt with this in Warcraft? I would assume, simply on a lore basis, that re-introducing a good part of the BW units would make sense, no? Did they carry over most units in WC? (I know 2 races were added from 2->3 but as far as humans/orc go?) Edit: And by lore I mean, does the storyline from SC2 follow SC:BW time-wise? How do they explain the sudden, magic change in units out of nowhere? Vulture went out of production at space-age-Ford motors? I didn't touch the SC2 SP yet, not a fan of single player, never actually finished SC or BW even though I first played the game a few months after SC's release lol (I barely ever finish SP games, they bore me to death), so enlighten me here :o From Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3, the human and Orc races units undergone HUGE changes. First, all the navy units were removed. The Archer/ Axe thrower were totally removed(back up by lore). Ogre and Ogre mages for the orcs are completely gone. (back up by lore) Paladin and Archmage of the Human were turn into heroes. The air units of warcraft 2 are all removed. I know that the orc Dragons removal are according to lore, cuz the orcs lost control over the red dragon queen. I am not sure if the gryphon rider are gone cuz of lore though. Blizzard add a tons of new units which are took out from the lore, especially spell casters, I do not think any of the spell casters in warcraft 3 are from warcraft 2 (except the new archmage is a little bit like the old mage). Basically there are only 2 units of each race are the same as warcraft 2: the footman (grunt) and the workers. Everything else is a complete overhaul. The battle system/UI/Buildings, everyhting is completely new. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On June 17 2012 12:30 0neder wrote: The reasoning that bringing a fan favorite unit back would leave it out of place and useless in SC2 is completely foolhardy. Sure, stats might be altered a bit, but it would be completely feasible. Opponents say it would require a restructuring of the game? Yet...the game is being resructured anyway because of the expansion. Hence the discussion resurfaces. There are two kinds of Starcraft fans: those for whom the Lurker was their favorite unit in the game/favorite zerg unit (maybe more so than any other unit), and those who never heard of it and don't care if it was in the original. Starcraft 2 needs more splash damage, not less. It's already bad enough that the Colossus can't one-shot bio and tanks have been almost completely neutered. The community needs to start thinking like game designers (dangerous, I know, but hear me out). You all assume that because things are the way they are in WoL, that HotS has to maintain the status quo. That is not so. Micro potential could be improved in a month or so, if they wanted to. Macro mechanics could be eliminated overnight, and the game would have more back and forth, and comebacks would be more feasible. Blizzard could declare they've decided to balance the game around very open maps, rather than using the closed off map pool as a crutch for hyper concentrated deathballs. Detection could become less of a commodity to give stealthy units like Roaches/Lurkers/Banes/DTs more excitement. Why are Ravens so rare? Because scan is now a commodity where it used to be a precious resource in BW. The assertion that reavers and lurkers and spider mines would be imbalanced in SC2 is ridiculous for two reasons. First, it's silly because they were all imbalanced in BW and that's what made it great. Secondly, it's silly because you exaggerate the effort required to make adjustments to the units for SC2. You would either tweak the damage or fix unit spacing to not overlap, and you're good to go. I believe the SC2BW guy has even developed the inconsistent Reaver shot and vulture patrol micro himself - how hard for Blizzard's competent team could that be? Scan a precious resource in BW? AFAIK, players like Flash scan all the time, their detection comes from missile turrets and science vessels. | ||
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MugenXBanksy
United States479 Posts
On June 17 2012 16:57 sluggaslamoo wrote: I disagree about nydus, salvage, banelings, void-rays, orbital. Nydus was much more heavily utilized in BW. In fact it was seen in late-game 100% of the time. Salvage makes bunkers too safe. Banelings are no where near as useful as lurkers. Void Rays are Void Rays. Orbital, can't kill comsat, + no decision making on when to get detection. agreed, Nydus gets used as likea gimmick if your opponent cannons you in or some dumb shit like that only time i have ever seen it and even then 99% of the time they can fix that with spines and safely get out without the cannons even hurting them or just mass muta and make someone hate themselves Bunkers, still waiting on that bunker patch for all we know terrans could have entire bunker economys gaining minerals interest they got mules already thats a extra source of income + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DV5HE.jpg) baneling can be cute sometimes most of the time herpderp or give zergs heart attacks because they micro'd their lings wrong a second too late void rays aka flying guns herp derp get ride of mules orbital makes sense again or limit mules per minute terrans skimp on workers anyways T_T medivac imba in large quantitys | ||
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