|
On June 17 2012 02:12 empty.bottle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:09 sharky246 wrote:On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote:
It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them? Would they really get flamed for bringing exact copies? I mean look at dota 2, it is exactly the same as dota 1, just better graphics, nobody is flaming them for lack of creativity. Dota 2 is not a sequel, It's a standalone version of DotA. LoL and HoN are like the Sc2s of Dota.
I don't know what you mean when you say it's not a sequel but a standalone version. One thing is certain, the creators of dota wanted to make dota with better graphics (i.e dota 2) as opposed to adding creativity (hon and lol) because the game is very well balanced.
Not saying that hon or lol isn't well balanced, but my point is, a game does not need to have new units to be popular. It's possible that if they simply made sc2 as bw with better graphics, it might have been just as successful if not more so. Of course, all this is under the assumption (possibly false, i dunno) that valve's efforts are aimed at getting fresh new blood for dota 2, instead of just targeting fans of dota 1 and that alot of the viewers that currently watch and play dota 2 are new players.
|
On June 17 2012 20:09 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:12 empty.bottle wrote:On June 17 2012 01:09 sharky246 wrote:On June 17 2012 01:00 jalstar wrote:
It's lose-lose for Blizzard. If they bring back exact copies they get flamed for lacking creativity. If they add new units they get flamed because there was nothing wrong with BW units, so why change them? Would they really get flamed for bringing exact copies? I mean look at dota 2, it is exactly the same as dota 1, just better graphics, nobody is flaming them for lack of creativity. Dota 2 is not a sequel, It's a standalone version of DotA. LoL and HoN are like the Sc2s of Dota. I don't know what you mean when you say it's not a sequel but a standalone version. One thing is certain, the creators of dota wanted to make dota with better graphics (i.e dota 2) as opposed to adding creativity (hon and lol) because the game is very well balanced. Not saying that hon or lol isn't well balanced, but my point is, a game does not need to have new units to be popular. It's possible that if they simply made sc2 as bw with better graphics, it might have been just as successful if not more so. Of course, all this is under the assumption (possibly false, i dunno) that valve's efforts are aimed at getting fresh new blood for dota 2, instead of just targeting fans of dota 1 and that alot of the viewers that currently watch and play dota 2 are new players.
At the same time, Valve isn't pretending to be making a new game with DotA 2: them and Icefrog are perfectly fine with just remaking the original without the limitations of WC3's engine. That isn't what Blizzard is doing with SC2. They're trying to make a sequel to Brood War, not just a remake.
|
On June 17 2012 19:26 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 18:29 BrosephBrostar wrote:
People are basically hypocrites. They say they want maps like BW, units like BW, even players from BW, but when you ask why they don't just watch/play BW they don't want to. It's like a woman who always complains that her new boyfriend isn't like her old one that she dumped. We do... But blizzard have tried to kill BW for years and finally succeeded. Now we want a game that's actually worthy of BW. Currently, SC2 is not. And giving SC2 engine's flaws as a reason for not introducing successful BW concepts (e.g. units clumping up to an extreme, which they can easily fix...). It's idiotic of blizzard to build their whole game around crappy engine, which forces them to introduce more crappy changes like nerfing all sorts of spells and units. The fact that they think their new pathing algorythm is somehow "superior" to BW, WC3, CoH, AoX or many other RTS games that don't have clumping, is beyond ridiculous. That's as if Quake's developer said "our new engine is so much superior to the old one - we've finally gotten rid of starfe jumping, rocket jumping and so on". There's a difference between bugs and "unintended features". Just because blizzard did not intend for something to exist, does not mean they have to get rid of it. Void Ray fazing is a prime example of that. It had SO MUCH potential. But blizzard doesn't get it. Their "moving shot" proves that.
You aren't going to win this argument.
I don't know why you're bothering. You're not going to be happy until the engine is entirely overhauled. That isn't happening.
I know to people like you, the annoying parts of SC1's interface like the terrible pathing that you had to constantly babysit or your units would end up lost around the map somehow makes the game superior because it required more of what you called skill just to overcome flaws in the engine in order to actually play the game.
That game isn't coming back. If you want to have a legitimate discussion about units that's one thing but don't start bitching that the engine is different, not worse, but different and that for whatever reason means the game isn't worth ever playing.
If that's the kind of opinion you have, just keep it to yourself because it doesn't help anyone else or further any discussion.
|
I think the major mistake blizzard made was this :
They started to make SC2 by keeping some unremovable units, and removed some others that where the player's favorite.
(I was 10 when I was playing broodwar and my nickname was "Lixo_the_Lurker")
I think they should have instead created an exact copy of broodwar, and then IMPROVED certain units.
For me the Broodlord is a plain improvement from the devourer, but where went the Lurker and the Defiler, which where the real elite of the zerg armies ? They didn't even get remplaced, they where plain removed.
That's gonna sound silly but if we look at it "story wise", why would the swarm, after its victory, disapear 5 years to come back weakened, without the broods that made them win in the first place ?
It's way too late now, but I think Wings of Liberty should have been a improved copy of Brood War, and Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void bring many new units to it.
|
On June 17 2012 20:31 Lixo wrote:
I think the major mistake blizzard made was this :
They started to make SC2 by keeping some unremovable units, and removed some others that where the player's favorite.
(I was 10 when I was playing broodwar and my nickname was "Lixo_the_Lurker")
I think they should have instead created an exact copy of broodwar, and then IMPROVED certain units.
For me the Broodlord is a plain improvement from the devourer, but where went the Lurker and the Defiler, which where the real elite of the zerg armies ? They didn't even get remplaced, they where plain removed.
That's gonna sound silly but if we look at it "story wise", why would the swarm, after its victory, disapear 5 years to come back weakened, without the broods that made them win in the first place ?
It's way too late now, but I think Wings of Liberty should have been a improved copy of Brood War, and Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void bring many new units to it.
Well from a story perspective the only thing that matters is the campaign.
You can guarantee that Lurkers will be in the HOTS campaign just like Wraiths, Goliaths, Medics and Firebats were for Terrans.
The sad reason that Lurkers just cannot exist in SC2 is because of Banelings.
can you imagine a game where Lurkers Banelings AND Infestors are all on the field at once? It'd just be too ridiculous.
In the case of the Lurker and Reaver they got replaced by new units that covered their role. The Defiler also to a lesser extent got replaced by the Infestor similarly the way the Science vessel did by the Raven.
There's other units that have this same thing going on. Dragoons and Stalkers, Goliaths and Vikings/Thors, Firebats and Hellions, Vultures and Hellions, Corsair and Phoenix, Wraith and Banshee, Void Ray and Scout,
Blizz added new units that in most situations mirrored their old counterparts enough that they were immediately accepted. in the case of the Collosus and Reaver and Baneling and Lurker, people aren't satisfied in the same way because of how different the units are yet for all intents and purposes they fulfill the same role.
I understand the argument against the Collosus believe me I do, it hurts a lot of potential strategies and single handedly breaks PvP late game because of how strong it is, but that's why Zerg is getting almost a dedicated anti-collosus unit in the Viper and Protoss in the Tempest.
The same thing happened in Brood War if you don't remember. Both Terrans and Protoss got new units seemingly designed with the sole purpose of killing Mutalisks.
|
Luckily HotS is getting more BW like units, wich are actually interesting instead of just being "cool" like in WoL. Reintroducing all those units would just be boring. We already know them, I want to see new ones.
|
So that no more "Hydralisk sucks, it was a good unit in BW." or "I want good old microable carrier back" syndrome happens.
No re-introduction, no such criticism.
Smart move from Dustin Browder.
|
While the lurker can be argued to being unable to fit well into SC2, I feel that lurker drops bring a dynamic into the game which SC2 is sorely lacking. Dropping them to attack a mineral line while burrowed (needing detection to kill) actually spreads out the game tremendously and brings the action in every part of the map feel, and honestly, zerg simply do not have any form of harrassment option other than zergling runbys in SC2 (infestors work well, but their cost often makes it very risky).
I doubt that the swarm host can bring this sort of play back (since the spawns can be killed and have no aoe) and will mostly be used for grinding down on the frontlines like the Broodlords.
|
On June 17 2012 20:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 19:26 maybenexttime wrote:On June 17 2012 18:29 BrosephBrostar wrote:
People are basically hypocrites. They say they want maps like BW, units like BW, even players from BW, but when you ask why they don't just watch/play BW they don't want to. It's like a woman who always complains that her new boyfriend isn't like her old one that she dumped. We do... But blizzard have tried to kill BW for years and finally succeeded. Now we want a game that's actually worthy of BW. Currently, SC2 is not. And giving SC2 engine's flaws as a reason for not introducing successful BW concepts (e.g. units clumping up to an extreme, which they can easily fix...). It's idiotic of blizzard to build their whole game around crappy engine, which forces them to introduce more crappy changes like nerfing all sorts of spells and units. The fact that they think their new pathing algorythm is somehow "superior" to BW, WC3, CoH, AoX or many other RTS games that don't have clumping, is beyond ridiculous. That's as if Quake's developer said "our new engine is so much superior to the old one - we've finally gotten rid of starfe jumping, rocket jumping and so on". There's a difference between bugs and "unintended features". Just because blizzard did not intend for something to exist, does not mean they have to get rid of it. Void Ray fazing is a prime example of that. It had SO MUCH potential. But blizzard doesn't get it. Their "moving shot" proves that. You aren't going to win this argument. I don't know why you're bothering. You're not going to be happy until the engine is entirely overhauled. That isn't happening. I know to people like you, the annoying parts of SC1's interface like the terrible pathing that you had to constantly babysit or your units would end up lost around the map somehow makes the game superior because it required more of what you called skill just to overcome flaws in the engine in order to actually play the game. That game isn't coming back. If you want to have a legitimate discussion about units that's one thing but don't start bitching that the engine is different, not worse, but different and that for whatever reason means the game isn't worth ever playing. If that's the kind of opinion you have, just keep it to yourself because it doesn't help anyone else or further any discussion.
And how exactly do you know I'm not going to be satisfied until they completely overhaul the engine? The engine is worse. There's only a handful of units that reward micro, while in BW nearly all of them did. And by micro I don't mean spamming spells (that's one of the least demanding aspects of micro). Most of the time, attempting to micro your units can actually be detrimental, the engine/AI does the job better. This is something people have complained about since hands-on alpha...
Fixing unit clumping does not need complete engine overhaul. It's even been fixed in the map editor in under a week by some people. Unit clumping is one of the key factors behind several of the biggest issues in SC2's gameplay, deathballs and blizzard having to severaly nerf many spells and units among other things.
Since because of HotS blizzard is going to have to completely rebalance the game anyway, there's no excuse for them not to fix unit clumping instead of balancing the game around flawed engine again...
Also, did you ever play BW beyond singleplayer? People like you constantly blow out of proportion BW pathing's deficiencies. There were maybe a dozen situations where I've got frustrated with pathing, and my RTS history is Generals -> WC3 -> DoW -> AoX -> BW, so don't tell me I'm just used to "terrible pathing".
And you don't have to "downgrade" SC2's pathing/engine to BW level. Armies of Exigo's pathing worked perfectly and somehow did not cause units to clump. I've played that game extensively and never experienced any issues.
Blizzard can easily fix the most glaring issues in SC2 by introducing several key concepts from BW (e.g. space control units, lack of unit clumping, units rewarding micro, etc.), but they're too proud to admit many of their design decisions were terrible.
|
On June 17 2012 21:18 Woizit wrote:
While the lurker can be argued to being unable to fit well into SC2, I feel that lurker drops bring a dynamic into the game which SC2 is sorely lacking. Dropping them to attack a mineral line while burrowed (needing detection to kill) actually spreads out the game tremendously and brings the action in every part of the map feel, and honestly, zerg simply do not have any form of harrassment option other than zergling runbys in SC2 (infestors work well, but their cost often makes it very risky).
I doubt that the swarm host can bring this sort of play back (since the spawns can be killed and have no aoe) and will mostly be used for grinding down on the frontlines like the Broodlords.
Mutalisks?!
Zerg don't have harassment options when they have the single best harassment unit in the game? Wut?
|
On June 17 2012 21:21 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:18 Woizit wrote:
While the lurker can be argued to being unable to fit well into SC2, I feel that lurker drops bring a dynamic into the game which SC2 is sorely lacking. Dropping them to attack a mineral line while burrowed (needing detection to kill) actually spreads out the game tremendously and brings the action in every part of the map feel, and honestly, zerg simply do not have any form of harrassment option other than zergling runbys in SC2 (infestors work well, but their cost often makes it very risky).
I doubt that the swarm host can bring this sort of play back (since the spawns can be killed and have no aoe) and will mostly be used for grinding down on the frontlines like the Broodlords. Mutalisks?! Zerg don't have harassment options when they have the single best harassment unit in the game? Wut?
Well, pardon me for being not specific enough, but I refer to cheap harrassment, Mutalisks require quite some massing to be effective. In addition, one of my points of the dynamics lurker drops can bring is spreading out play over the map, and mutas usually are used in a single stack and at most two for harrassing.
|
On June 17 2012 20:54 DoctorPhil wrote:
Luckily HotS is getting more BW like units, wich are actually interesting instead of just being "cool" like in WoL. Reintroducing all those units would just be boring. We already know them, I want to see new ones.
Tempest
Warhound
Transforming 1a2a3a Hellion
|
On June 17 2012 21:26 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:21 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2012 21:18 Woizit wrote:
While the lurker can be argued to being unable to fit well into SC2, I feel that lurker drops bring a dynamic into the game which SC2 is sorely lacking. Dropping them to attack a mineral line while burrowed (needing detection to kill) actually spreads out the game tremendously and brings the action in every part of the map feel, and honestly, zerg simply do not have any form of harrassment option other than zergling runbys in SC2 (infestors work well, but their cost often makes it very risky).
I doubt that the swarm host can bring this sort of play back (since the spawns can be killed and have no aoe) and will mostly be used for grinding down on the frontlines like the Broodlords. Mutalisks?! Zerg don't have harassment options when they have the single best harassment unit in the game? Wut? Well, pardon me for being not specific enough, but I refer to cheap harrassment, Mutalisks require quite some massing to be effective. In addition, one of my points of the dynamics lurker drops can bring is spreading out play over the map, and mutas usually are used in a single stack and at most two for harrassing.
Now i'm confused.
You're referring to cheap harassment and then refer to Lurker drops, which weren't cheap at all. 400/400 in just Lurker evolution and Ventral sacs alone. That used to be my go-to strat for ZvZ in Brood War, I know how expensive that was to pull off.
In SC2 between Zergling runbys, the most inexpensive harassment tool in the game, Mutalisks, Infestor Death Squads, Nydus Worms and Overlord drops, Zerg has a huge variety of harassment options with a huge variety of risk/rewards and costs involved.You could even include Overseer's contaminate in there if you wanted to.
In HOTS you'll have plenty of opportunity also to utilize the Swarm Host as an additional harassment tool, considering the Locusts are free if you can position a couple of Swarm Hosts in range of an expansion you can harass it constantly until troops come by to clear out the Swarm Hosts.
|
On June 17 2012 21:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 20:54 DoctorPhil wrote:
Luckily HotS is getting more BW like units, wich are actually interesting instead of just being "cool" like in WoL. Reintroducing all those units would just be boring. We already know them, I want to see new ones. Tempest Warhound Transforming 1a2a3a Hellion Agreed on the last two, but I really like the tempest. 22 range is like the crazy stuff that made BW fun to watch. The tempest is not an attack move unit, it's dps is too bad for that.It forces engagements and snipes important units. I find that an interesting unit.
|
On June 17 2012 21:37 DoctorPhil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 17 2012 20:54 DoctorPhil wrote:
Luckily HotS is getting more BW like units, wich are actually interesting instead of just being "cool" like in WoL. Reintroducing all those units would just be boring. We already know them, I want to see new ones. Tempest Warhound Transforming 1a2a3a Hellion Agreed on the last two, but I really like the tempest. 22 range is like the crazy stuff that made BW fun to watch. The tempest is not an attack move unit, it's dps is too bad for that.It forces engagements and snipes important units. I find that an interesting unit.
The Hellion is actually a lot less 1a than people are giving it credit for. It's easy to look at it without playing with it and make that judgement but when I played with it at the demo, I found that having a mech unit mineral dump that was both a harassment unit and melee fighter in one gives it a ton of strategic potential.
|
On June 17 2012 21:31 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:26 Woizit wrote:On June 17 2012 21:21 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2012 21:18 Woizit wrote:
While the lurker can be argued to being unable to fit well into SC2, I feel that lurker drops bring a dynamic into the game which SC2 is sorely lacking. Dropping them to attack a mineral line while burrowed (needing detection to kill) actually spreads out the game tremendously and brings the action in every part of the map feel, and honestly, zerg simply do not have any form of harrassment option other than zergling runbys in SC2 (infestors work well, but their cost often makes it very risky).
I doubt that the swarm host can bring this sort of play back (since the spawns can be killed and have no aoe) and will mostly be used for grinding down on the frontlines like the Broodlords. Mutalisks?! Zerg don't have harassment options when they have the single best harassment unit in the game? Wut? Well, pardon me for being not specific enough, but I refer to cheap harrassment, Mutalisks require quite some massing to be effective. In addition, one of my points of the dynamics lurker drops can bring is spreading out play over the map, and mutas usually are used in a single stack and at most two for harrassing. Now i'm confused. You're referring to cheap harassment and then refer to Lurker drops, which weren't cheap at all. 400/400 in just Lurker evolution and Ventral sacs alone. That used to be my go-to strat for ZvZ in Brood War, I know how expensive that was to pull off. Between Zergling runbys, the most inexpensive harassment tool in the game, Mutalisks, Infestor Death Squads, Nydus Worms and Overlord drops, Zerg has a huge variety of harassment options with a huge variety of risk/rewards and costs involved. You could even include Overseer's contaminate in there if you wanted to.
I suppose part of the cost is negated due to the prevalance of hydralisks in BW, which makes it have less deviation in tech. Nydus is hardly worthwhile SC2, Infestor squads are interesting, but are usually much more efficient being with the main army than being alone (not to mention again than you actually need a "squad"). I understand it's a very different game, I'm just pointing out that's one aspect of harrassment that's unique and missing in SC2.
|
On June 17 2012 21:40 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2012 21:26 Woizit wrote:On June 17 2012 21:21 Vindicare605 wrote:On June 17 2012 21:18 Woizit wrote:
While the lurker can be argued to being unable to fit well into SC2, I feel that lurker drops bring a dynamic into the game which SC2 is sorely lacking. Dropping them to attack a mineral line while burrowed (needing detection to kill) actually spreads out the game tremendously and brings the action in every part of the map feel, and honestly, zerg simply do not have any form of harrassment option other than zergling runbys in SC2 (infestors work well, but their cost often makes it very risky).
I doubt that the swarm host can bring this sort of play back (since the spawns can be killed and have no aoe) and will mostly be used for grinding down on the frontlines like the Broodlords. Mutalisks?! Zerg don't have harassment options when they have the single best harassment unit in the game? Wut? Well, pardon me for being not specific enough, but I refer to cheap harrassment, Mutalisks require quite some massing to be effective. In addition, one of my points of the dynamics lurker drops can bring is spreading out play over the map, and mutas usually are used in a single stack and at most two for harrassing. Now i'm confused. You're referring to cheap harassment and then refer to Lurker drops, which weren't cheap at all. 400/400 in just Lurker evolution and Ventral sacs alone. That used to be my go-to strat for ZvZ in Brood War, I know how expensive that was to pull off. Between Zergling runbys, the most inexpensive harassment tool in the game, Mutalisks, Infestor Death Squads, Nydus Worms and Overlord drops, Zerg has a huge variety of harassment options with a huge variety of risk/rewards and costs involved. You could even include Overseer's contaminate in there if you wanted to. I suppose part of the cost is negated due to the prevalance of hydralisks in BW, which makes it have less deviation in tech. Nydus is hardly worthwhile SC2, Infestor squads are interesting, but are usually much more efficient being with the main army than being alone (not to mention again than you actually need a "squad"). I understand it's a very different game, I'm just pointing out that's one aspect of harrassment that's unique and missing in SC2.
Nydus Worms are actually incredibly worthwhile in SC2, especially with the maps becoming larger and larger and the expansions more and more spread out. Nydus Worms just have a bad stigma of uselessness that carried over from the early seasons where the tiny maps did in fact make them useless, so most Zergs don't even bother with them.
I've been watching a lot of streams lately as well as games in Customs and elsewhere of Zergs beginning to experiment with the Nydus Worm again and I'm pretty convinced that it's going to make a reappearance in the meta game soon especially against Protoss.
As far as your comment about infestor hit squads go, efficiency is very hard to judge when looking at harassment units. A couple infestors can completely wipe out a mineral line, and get away cleanly if they aren't reacted to quickly enough, but conversely they can be picked off when they drop their first IT's and be a wasted investment, the same can be said for Storm Drops, Marine Drops, Cloaked Banshees, DTs or even Hellions.
|
On June 17 2012 21:37 DoctorPhil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 21:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 17 2012 20:54 DoctorPhil wrote:
Luckily HotS is getting more BW like units, wich are actually interesting instead of just being "cool" like in WoL. Reintroducing all those units would just be boring. We already know them, I want to see new ones. Tempest Warhound Transforming 1a2a3a Hellion Agreed on the last two, but I really like the tempest. 22 range is like the crazy stuff that made BW fun to watch. The tempest is not an attack move unit, it's dps is too bad for that.It forces engagements and snipes important units. I find that an interesting unit.
I agree. The attack speed of the Tempest makes up for the range and its damage. It's a surgical (though not very agile), artillery figther, not an a-move unit you make 5-10 of. The Tempest will create room for some entertaining, strategic options. I think it's cool.
Furthermore it'll encourage Spire tech in ZvP more often. Heart of the Swarm to me sounds like an era in which the dominant force is a mix of flying casters, Hydralisks and Corrupters. If only Blizzard gave the Corrupter a secondary purpose. I find it sad that there are units like the Corrupter which only purpose is to eliminate air units. Same goes for the Hellion in Wings of Liberty, although with the new Battle Mode (or whatever it's called) the Hellion will make room for additional ways to approach enemy compositions.
That's what I want to see.
|
On June 17 2012 18:32 Guamshin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:04 Shiori wrote:On June 17 2012 01:02 Flightan wrote:
My guess is because, as a game developer, it really isn't fun to do the same things over and over again, you would much rather invent new stuff.
Imagine being the one that came up with the idea of the colossus, you can then be proud because it is being loved by many, it really isn't the same as just re-coding the reaver. Considering everyone hates the Colossus, I wouldn't celebrate too quickly. Nobody is asking for units that are identical to BW counterparts; we're asking for units that respect the standard set by BW: high skill-cap, specialized units with clear weaknesses. Instead we have units like the Colossus/Roach/Marauder/Marine/Ling/Infestor/Immortal which are basically good against almost everything and are never a bad idea to build. What's more with the exception of the Marine, none of them are really micro-heavy. I hate it how sc2 is basicly 3rd Bw with half-assed Bw units, Blizzard will most likely never remove bad units like Colossus unless the community is dying out or whatever and they need to pull a desperate move. Marine/marauder needs to be split and you have to kite but even then eventually you can just a-move when your winning, which displays the bad decision of adding unlimited(almost i guess) units in a control group. Your not microing when your fighting. This is one of the reasons i don't like watching competitive sc2 since there is pretty much 0 difference in people controlling their armies and how they use them, with the exception of terrans splitting their marines/marauders of course, but the rest is split-1a-2t, you get my point. It's not like HerO's storms are better then Sage's. I think HoTs is looking better then WoL but with added a-move units(Tempest, Warhound, Battle Hellion) my opinion probably won't change, instead of making sc2 units like BW, they should have made pretty much everything different except remain the UI and the 3 races.
I can't take this thread seriously after this post.
|
Vatican City State582 Posts
cuz this isn't a remake...........obviously?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
