On June 18 2012 03:06 D u o wrote: losing half your player base after 2 years is pretty good for a game that doesn't take any level grind.
BW continued to grow in player base for years, because the game was better and Blizzard's pricing structure (free at PC bangs) promoted it so kids could practice. Even through 2007-2008, the player base was still strong enough to support a strong group of new talent coming up through the courage tournament where the winner gets a progaming license.
But SC2 falls short on both the game itself and the pricing in Korea, thus, it could very well die only a few years after LotV. I don't want that to happen.
On June 18 2012 04:28 D u o wrote: They'll watch just like people did and do in BW............. LMAO If you don't like sc2 then don't play it and if you don't like watching it then don't but as long as there is enough spectators companies will pay for advertisments and people will still play it competitively and kespa is really good at keeping games alive, as shown via bw. Games have already shown that they don't need a casual group of people playing but a group of spectators is good enough. And actually having a casual scene of people probably ruins the game for the competitive scene because blizz is patching for lower level play which affect higher level play quite a bit more. I don't play hockey but I watch it.
You sure like to draw a ton of assumptions. Almost everything you said agrees with my quote.
Yes but it's completely backwards from what blizz is doing... They balance the game for all leagues, its the main reason for having rocks on thirds. The reason behind buffing the queen was "players in the lower leagues are having issues holding off aggression in the early game." And its the main reason behind having a mothership core to help hold off 4gates because of the purify ability [having a cannon on your nexus.] Where as the pro players aren't having problems picking up on the fact that they're getting 4gated in PvP and can use micro to their advantage or FFing their ramp and cutting units off or denying vision at the top of their ramp. You said that Blizzard wants the game to be really competitive and have spectators being able to watch, but what you didn't add is what they're ruining their chances of that because they're tailoring the game for ALL leagues and not just for the 2%.
On June 18 2012 03:06 D u o wrote: losing half your player base after 2 years is pretty good for a game that doesn't take any level grind.
BW continued to grow in player base for years, because the game was better and Blizzard's pricing structure (free at PC bangs) promoted it so kids could practice. Even through 2007-2008, the player base was still strong enough to support a strong group of new talent coming up through the courage tournament where the winner gets a progaming license.
But SC2 falls short on both the game itself and the pricing in Korea, thus, it could very well die only a few years after LotV. I don't want that to happen.
I don't see the point of looking 4 to 6 years in the future. Even if Blizz stops supporting the balance the community is more than capable of creating maps that balance the game, or alternatively pick up the map editor and change unit damage values and how they work. I don't think there is a fear of the game dying, and I'm sure that 2 years after LoV expansion comes out the price point for the game will be lower than it is when it first comes out. I think people fail to realize that the community doesn't need blizzard, but its nice for them to be there for us.
On June 18 2012 04:05 maybenexttime wrote: D u o, I disagree. Saying that if blizzard implements BW units people will complain no matter what is wrong. That's actually not the case. It's just that most BW units that made the cut are objectively worse: Tanks, Zerglings, Battlecruisers, Carriers, Zealots, HTs, DTs, Mutas, Hydras and Ultras. They simply are. Do I have to give reasons for every one of them? Because I can.
Speedlots are much more versatile than Chargelots because their speed upgrade is not limited to engagements. Lings are weaker mainly due to SC2's pathing. Tanks got stats-nerfed due to unit clumping and stupid no overkill engine. Mutas are practically devoid of micro becuase blizzard is clueless when it comes to understanding what actually constitutes Muta micro. Hydras were stats-nerfed for some reason. HT's Storm got nerfed due to unit clumping (see a pattern?). Ultras got stats-nerfed (again, decreasing a unit's speed). DTs warn the player even if one-hit killing enemy units (that was one of the stupidest changes; one-hitting units without alarming the enemy made them incredibly unique and emphasized their ninja theme).
Are those not objectively worse than their BW counterparts?
But there are some units that did benefit from the transition: Marines, Ghosts, Broodlords and Stalkers (I'm going to ignore the ones that are not really inspired by any BW units/got heavily overhauled, like Ravens; or units that simply had their roles altered, like Medivacs).
Out of those, Marine is the best example. It proves that SC2 does allow for units not only to match BW's level, but also to improve them. But blizzard seems pretty clueless and Marines were an accident, something they they almost nerfed to death like Reapers because people were whining they're extremely OP (aka reward micro).
To sum up, BW players are not driven by nostalgia, they are not going to dislike units ported from BW out of principle. We are willing to admit some units that got ported to SC2 got improved.
Not that I'm disagreeing with your points entirelying, but Chargelots do receive a speed bonus in movement. Sure it's not as dramatic as Speedlots in BW but they do receive an increase from 2.25 - 2.75 basic movement not including Charge.
I thought Tanks were nerfed due to how TvT had issues with just static Tank Lines wrecking any sort of Bio-Ground force? It made for extremely long games if I recall. They also countered too many of Zerg's units too well.
Hydras were nerfed and buffed in some cases since they introduced Roaches and Blizzard didn't want to have the same low-tier BW combos going on. Dragoons removed, Firebat/Medics removed.
HT's nerf..well if you can call it that. Nothing about the unit itself was actually nerfed. They removed KA so there wasn't any more instant-warp-in storms. Whether or not that was a good idea depends on which side you're on.
Yet Blizzard is actually looking at BW to improve on some of these units. Hydra speed in HOTS will be insane and makes them much more viable to use. Widow mines - Spider Mines. Swarm Host - Lurker/Broodlord mix.
On June 18 2012 03:43 Tyrant0 wrote: But they want it to have the balance the pros want and the balance that will keep spectators interested. It's what's going to keep the game alive 2-3 years after LoV is finally released when all of the casual players move on.
I think this is a false dichotomy. The pros generally probably want what's best for spectating. Moving shot patrol micro - good for spectating and player satisfaction. Very fast units like the vulture - good for spectating and player satisfaction. I asked ForGG on his stream if he missed the vulture, and he said yes. How couldn't he? Players like Fantasy almost made their career off of vulture patrol micro, and now in SC2 he has....marine stutter stepping and splitting. How long will SC2 hold his interest? SC2 needs more of this, where amazing control let's you do amazing things with almost nothing:
Quote from another vulture micro video: "This one trick and this tone trick only has kept me playing Terran for years. Nice video mate."
On June 18 2012 00:20 iky43210 wrote: why the hell do people want broodwar to come back? do people not realize casual gamers just aren't going to play with no multiple building selections, auto mining, or more than 12 units grouping? Those are more tedious tasks than it is
I'm talking about units, not the interface. While I do think MBS etc. detract from the breadth of skill and lower the skill ceiling, I understand that the most important elements are unit, their dynamics, and their spacing.
On June 17 2012 20:39 Vindicare605 wrote: The sad reason that Lurkers just cannot exist in SC2 is because of Banelings.
That's like saying siege tanks can't exist because hellions do splash too. Banelings are melee suicide units, lurkers are ranged stealth units, completely different roles, and one is more useful and cost efficient later in the game.
Well no it's a different situation entirely because Hellion splash replaces Spider Mines which were available on Vultures and do so with a higher price tag than Vultures had 100minerals vs 75.
Meanwhile Zerg loses the splash of the Lurker and Infested Terran and gains the Baneling, a splash unit on a much lower tier than anything Zerg had prior, and gains splash also on the Ultralisk which was splash that didn't exist in Brood War either. Fungal Growth replaced Plague but that's about an even trade, smaller radius but with an immobilization effect.
Adding the Lurker back in gives Zerg more splash than they have currently in WoL which is a lot more already than what they had in Brood War, making it over the top.
On June 18 2012 04:05 maybenexttime wrote: Out of those, Marine is the best example. It proves that SC2 does allow for units not only to match BW's level, but also to improve them. But blizzard seems pretty clueless and Marines were an accident, something they they almost nerfed to death like Reapers because people were whining they're extremely OP (aka reward micro).
Part of why marines are so good is their clumping, the same reason most other units had to be nerfed for their AoE.
Not really. That just effects how much AoE will get nerfed. What makes Marines amazing in SC2 is their microbility. In fact, I'm pretty sure their stutter step is superior to their BW counterpart. What's that? Something SC2 did better? But unfortunately very few other units received that sort capability.
I don't think you need to downgrade the engine to get the sort control you had in BW. Unit clumping is hailed as modern progression of unit ai, but to me it seems only a partial solution. A far more superior solution would be to fix the stupid behaviours of dynamic movment rather than implementing unit clumping.
The difference is night and day and if done properly, it becomes a much more spectator friendly sport, plus splash is allowed to be more powerful. Aka good for newbs and pro's alike.
There have been some improvements to unit ai in SC2, but a lot has been lost in the process. The crazy thing is if Blizzard properly understood vulture/muta/wraith micro... that micro could go on any unit they designed and make it awesome. They could literally go as crazy as they wanted and get rid of almost every single BW unit, but if it had the BW-like unit control, I don't actually think many people would care. They don't even need a special ability on every single unit- I actually really like early game marine vs stalker micro much better than when concussive shell marauders and blink stalkers come out. More of the marine vs stalker type unit interaction would be awesome.
Rarely do I want to see BW unit re-introduced so much as a re-introduction of the control I had. And you don't need a-move designed units. Vultures could a-move if you didn't have time, but you could also micro them like crazy if you did. Both/and for microbility (unless it's a spellcaster like a ht), not either/or.
Their ability to be microed (better animations) is just one aspect to it. The fact they clump, allowing more to fire simultaneously makes them much more efficient in that regard as well. To the point that you actually just can't engage a ball of marines with any form of air or melee without AoE.
edit: At first I was confused by what you were aiming at, then I thought I understood, then I re-read and now I'm just confused again. I'd just make all the unit's hitboxes slightly bigger, so that balls would take up more space. Units like stalkers/hydras/marines become less powerful, colossus are as a consequence nerfed, tanks can be buffed again, engagements are much bigger and longer. It feels like it can do only good. I'm not sure what you're proposing which is what has me confused but I feel like we're in agreement on the general idea.
On June 18 2012 05:22 Vindicare605 wrote: Well no it's a different situation entirely because Hellion splash replaces Spider Mines which were available on Vultures and do so with a higher price tag than Vultures had 100minerals vs 75.
Did you mean that Hellion splash was meant to replace spider mines, or that it has the same role in SC2 currently? Because neither is true. Hellions are a bastardized vulture that got a modified firebat attack. They can't be patrol microed, their speed upgrade was removed so SC2 mech has no mobility, and their attack was nerfed to hell because Dustin Browder was worried about bronze players' worker lines getting their feelings hurt. So, tell me, how is that progress? That's not even sideways iteration, it's regression as an e-sport and for players.
What Browder doesn't understand is that noobs don't care if they get owned with imba units like reavers and tanks and carriers, because the opportunity for them to access the same units and do terrible damage with them is what makes it exciting. Browder is afraid of failure and is playing not to lose rather than to win, in terms of Sc2's game design.
On June 18 2012 00:20 iky43210 wrote: why the hell do people want broodwar to come back? do people not realize casual gamers just aren't going to play with no multiple building selections, auto mining, or more than 12 units grouping? Those are more tedious tasks than it is
I'm talking about units, not the interface. While I do think MBS etc. detract from the breadth of skill and lower the skill ceiling, I understand that the most important elements are unit, their dynamics, and their spacing.
On June 17 2012 20:39 Vindicare605 wrote: The sad reason that Lurkers just cannot exist in SC2 is because of Banelings.
That's like saying siege tanks can't exist because hellions do splash too. Banelings are melee suicide units, lurkers are ranged stealth units, completely different roles, and one is more useful and cost efficient later in the game.
Well no it's a different situation entirely because Hellion splash replaces Spider Mines which were available on Vultures and do so with a higher price tag than Vultures had 100minerals vs 75.
Meanwhile Zerg loses the splash of the Lurker and Infested Terran and gains the Baneling, a splash unit on a much lower tier than anything Zerg had prior, and gains splash also on the Ultralisk which was splash that didn't exist in Brood War either. Fungal Growth replaced Plague but that's about an even trade, smaller radius but with an immobilization effect.
Adding the Lurker back in gives them even MORE splash when they already have much more splash than they ever had access to in Brood War putting it over the top.
That maybe so, but banelings don't actually fill the role that lurkers had. Banelings are forced to retreat, retreat, retreat and never engage until it's time to attack and then go rolling in and blow stuff up and die. Lurkers were used to delay and hold positions- something that I think only spine crawlers do now. I see a lot of Zerg that are forced to retreat deep into their own territory before they can mass up again. Lurkers could hold a ridge, then retreat to the next ridge and delay the push again etc. That we they give the Zerg more time to remass. Or they could sit 2 lurkers on top of a ramp to protect the expansion until reinforcements could arrive.
But I don't think they would work anymore because of roaches and marauders and other 'tanky' units that could ignore the damage and snipe it anyways. Late game tech to lurkers would never work as it appears way too late for it to fulfill it's intended role.
But there still exists that more positional/ defensive role that is missing from the Zerg arsenal. Maybe the swarmlord will fulfill it? But who knows.
Their ability to be microed (better animations) is just one aspect to it. The fact they clump, allowing more to fire simultaneously makes them much more efficient in that regard as well. To the point that you actually just can't engage a ball of marines with any form of air or melee without AoE.
edit: At first I was confused by what you were aiming at, then I thought I understood, then I re-read and now I'm just confused again.
Oh clumping makes them more effective in that it's more DPS/area and therefore more efficient. But what makes marines more interesting and what makes them such a spectator friendly unit is not the clumping, but their ability to be microed. In fact the clumping makes it less spectator friendly because it's too hard to see, especially if the casters have all the healthbars on and actually cover up all the units with green lights.
having had a look at the new units introduced in HotS, I'm really curious about one thing:
Why is Blizzard so reluctant to bring back some of the units from Brood War?
Take for instance the War Hound:
When first it was announced, it seemed to have an Anti-Air missile and operated very much like the Goliath. Back then I was kind of puzzled by how they did not just bring back the Goliath, with the awesome sound any animation of their Anti-Air rockets.
Also strange seems the Swarm Host.
People asked for the Lurker, people got the Lurker. Well, kind of. A burrowed siege unit that can be used to break fortified positions? Alright, but why give Zerg a unit that's so shockingly similar to the Brood Lord instead of the sleek, horrifying Lurker people love?
I am now die hard Broodwar fan, only having heard from it once SC2 was out, only having played ~50 games vs. the computer, only having a very vague idea about how units work. So please don't crucify me if I got something wrong.
What do you think?
Probably mainly because this is SC2 not SC. If they wanted to make the same game with better graphics they could have easily done that. They wanted to make a new game, that's what they did.
I'm not too worried about it, BW will always be around, and people will always make BW units with the custom editor sooo..
I think you, and a lot of people, are missing the point of this thread. OP is saying that blizz are reluctant to bring back the true bw units themselves despite many of the new units sharing a lot of their features and resemblances. Each of the new units borrows many things from a specific bw unit.
This is in contrast to blizzard's WoL units (that arent exact copies ofc like lings, marines etc), such as colo, roach, marauder, sentry, reaper, corrupter, raven, thor etc etc that don't share similarities to bw units. Only units from WoL that have a similar bw counter part are stalkers and broodlords, at least that i can think of.
The question is then, if you're are basically taken the same idea why not just make it the same as the original unit altogether?
Exactly, A)but these units actually function differently and are also functioning in a different "universe". Also there is only so much you can do tactically in any given universe. Essentially they aren't going to try to make a copy. Any unit they make will have a similarity. There are "Marines" in call of duty.. but Lurkers? What game has those, that is a very specific thing. Now, B)lets examine if they do bring BW units back. We will have threads like "Lurker isn't the real Lurker". No shit, see 'A'.
On June 18 2012 02:41 Brow23 wrote: No one wants BW Units, new units are always better! All these BW-Kiddies should get comfortable with the fact that BW is D-E-A-D!
Like Marauders, Colossi, Mothership, Roaches, Immortals, Hellions, Vikings, really? LOL You can't be serious. It's not like SC2 is gonna be alive for long unless blizzard fixes the game. Currently it's on life support in form of really spaced out expansion packs. Ever since beta people have been saying "wait until the game actually gets released", "wait until that major patch", "wait until HotS". After HotS people will be saying "wait until LotV" (some already are). After LotV gets released and the major issues remain, the game will collapse. It's already lost half of the active player base, has not caught on in Korea and China (I think), while foreign spectators are losing interest due to Korean dominance.
Good luck with that kind of a game. ;p
Quite sad how putting "BW" in the thread title will bring on all these "SC2 sucks and is doomed!"-types.
Mind pointing out where I'm wrong? How are the delayed expansion packs not life support when nearly all SC2 players feel that way? "Wait until the game gets released", "wait a year", "wait until HotS", "wait until LotV"...
I've offered constructive criticism regarding Sc2 ever since the game was announced. Don't play me down by labeling me as a mindless hater...
On June 18 2012 05:32 Falling wrote: Oh clumping makes them more effective in that it's more DPS/area and therefore more efficient. But what makes marines more interesting and what makes them such a spectator friendly unit is not the clumping, but their ability to be microed. In fact the clumping makes it less spectator friendly because it's too hard to see, especially if the casters have all the healthbars on and actually cover up all the units with green lights.
Oh, I was simply referring to why the Marine was stronger in SC2 as opposed to BW. The original post didn't seem to account for the engine changes that inherently buffed them as well (better attack animations, clumping, etc.). I don't think clumping makes SC2 more watchable. I'm not sure if it makes it worse, because at the moment I enjoy SC2 for what it is. I definitely feel like it'd be better (both playing and spectating) without clumped up balls of units. I edited my post if you didn't see; I'm pretty sure we agree with each other.
On June 18 2012 02:41 Brow23 wrote: No one wants BW Units, new units are always better! All these BW-Kiddies should get comfortable with the fact that BW is D-E-A-D!
Like Marauders, Colossi, Mothership, Roaches, Immortals, Hellions, Vikings, really? LOL You can't be serious. It's not like SC2 is gonna be alive for long unless blizzard fixes the game. Currently it's on life support in form of really spaced out expansion packs. Ever since beta people have been saying "wait until the game actually gets released", "wait until that major patch", "wait until HotS". After HotS people will be saying "wait until LotV" (some already are). After LotV gets released and the major issues remain, the game will collapse. It's already lost half of the active player base, has not caught on in Korea and China (I think), while foreign spectators are losing interest due to Korean dominance.
Good luck with that kind of a game. ;p
Quite sad how putting "BW" in the thread title will bring on all these "SC2 sucks and is doomed!"-types.
Mind pointing out where I'm wrong? How are the delayed expansion packs not life support when nearly all SC2 players feel that way? "Wait until the game gets released", "wait a year", "wait until HotS", "wait until LotV"...
I've offered constructive criticism regarding Sc2 ever since the game was announced. Don't play me down by labeling me as a mindless hater...
You have absolutely no idea how nearly all SC2 players feel. If anything, the tens of thousands of people watching Dreamhack right now seem to be enjoying the game as it is. The expansions will just add on to that enjoyment we get from the game.
Let me guess, your constructive criticism has been mostly about making the game BW redux? Yeah well, that train has passed. I think its best you stop wasting your time here.
On June 17 2012 00:57 kafkaesque wrote: B)lets examine if they do bring BW units back. We will have threads like "Lurker isn't the real Lurker". No shit, see 'A'.
The reason we have those threads is because browder completely changed the hydra from a staple unit to a niche one. It wasn't that he just plopped it in unchanged and it wasn't useful. He arbitrarily changed it to be worse. If he had just kept it as a 1 supply massable swarmey unit with decent speed and general utility, then noone would have made that thread. The problem is his urge to mess with good things. He's had lots of decent new ideas unrelated to units, but he's also ruined a lot of already perfect units in the name of being different.
As Jony Ive has said, 'It's very easy to be different, but very difficult to be better.'
Such is the case with SC2, and Browder has taken the easy way out. I don't blame him for wanting to keep his job in this economy, but I can blame him for not having the courage to try to out-do broodwar.
Lots of games have been immensely popular esports for a short time, fizzled, and died out. Only a few had the staying power of BW. That was due to many factors, but one of them was the thing we are talking about.
Well they tried putting a lot of those units into SC2 early on but they didn't work out. For example units clump up too much in SC2 making the lurker extremely overpowered, which is why it was removed. Besides who really wants to play the same game over again?
As Jony Ive has said, 'It's very easy to be different, but very difficult to be better.'
Such is the case with SC2, and Browder has taken the easy way out. I don't blame him for wanting to keep his job in this economy, but I can blame him for not having the courage to try to out-do broodwar.
What a stupid thing to say. You just contradicted yourself.
On June 18 2012 00:20 iky43210 wrote: why the hell do people want broodwar to come back? do people not realize casual gamers just aren't going to play with no multiple building selections, auto mining, or more than 12 units grouping? Those are more tedious tasks than it is
I'm talking about units, not the interface. While I do think MBS etc. detract from the breadth of skill and lower the skill ceiling, I understand that the most important elements are unit, their dynamics, and their spacing.
On June 17 2012 20:39 Vindicare605 wrote: The sad reason that Lurkers just cannot exist in SC2 is because of Banelings.
That's like saying siege tanks can't exist because hellions do splash too. Banelings are melee suicide units, lurkers are ranged stealth units, completely different roles, and one is more useful and cost efficient later in the game.
Well no it's a different situation entirely because Hellion splash replaces Spider Mines which were available on Vultures and do so with a higher price tag than Vultures had 100minerals vs 75.
Meanwhile Zerg loses the splash of the Lurker and Infested Terran and gains the Baneling, a splash unit on a much lower tier than anything Zerg had prior, and gains splash also on the Ultralisk which was splash that didn't exist in Brood War either. Fungal Growth replaced Plague but that's about an even trade, smaller radius but with an immobilization effect.
Adding the Lurker back in gives them even MORE splash when they already have much more splash than they ever had access to in Brood War putting it over the top.
That maybe so, but banelings don't actually fill the role that lurkers had. Banelings are forced to retreat, retreat, retreat and never engage until it's time to attack and then go rolling in and blow stuff up and die. Lurkers were used to delay and hold positions- something that I think only spine crawlers do now. I see a lot of Zerg that are forced to retreat deep into their own territory before they can mass up again. Lurkers could hold a ridge, then retreat to the next ridge and delay the push again etc. That we they give the Zerg more time to remass. Or they could sit 2 lurkers on top of a ramp to protect the expansion until reinforcements could arrive.
But I don't think they would work anymore because of roaches and marauders and other 'tanky' units that could ignore the damage and snipe it anyways. Late game tech to lurkers would never work as it appears way too late for it to fulfill it's intended role.
But there still exists that more positional/ defensive role that is missing from the Zerg arsenal. Maybe the swarmlord will fulfill it? But who knows.
The potential for bling to delay is there, you can get burrow and just do a line of burrow bling across the map to delay. But I agree lurker are useful in more situations. I mean I think it takes 3 to kill sentry and only 2 to kill marine, you force scans or make them build a raven [which terran will NEVER do] and not only can you delay but you can get a shit tonne of kills and perhaps even win the game with it. I mean I think my biggest argument is that they're against using the cool design of units in SC2 even though they have the same purpose. ie: Goliath instead of a Thor, or the model for a Goliath for the Warhound which is kind of the light that the thread itself was created. I agree with you and how we've lost being able to control units and get more out of them if you're good enough to do so. Which is sort of disheartening. I feel that it's not only how the units move and clump together but also how there are abilities that snare and create walls and slow and that itself reduces how much micro players are able to do. I really feel that instead of adding abilities like fungal and force field and marauder slows, along with the hots abduct ability they could just have less abilities and force players to use more micro, if a player can split marines to reduce bling splash they should be rewarded, instead of having something that locks units down perhaps make it so that the units aren't as fast when stimmed so that such a split isn't capable of happening. I mean even if you have a darkswarm ability in the game you're still prolonging the life of your bling so splitting is more effective and your bling don't get clump shotted by tanks. I mean there is other things they can do other than reducing the amount of micro needed to do such things yet they continue to introduce units and abilities that ruin how effective your units can be.
On June 18 2012 02:41 Brow23 wrote: No one wants BW Units, new units are always better! All these BW-Kiddies should get comfortable with the fact that BW is D-E-A-D!
Like Marauders, Colossi, Mothership, Roaches, Immortals, Hellions, Vikings, really? LOL You can't be serious. It's not like SC2 is gonna be alive for long unless blizzard fixes the game. Currently it's on life support in form of really spaced out expansion packs. Ever since beta people have been saying "wait until the game actually gets released", "wait until that major patch", "wait until HotS". After HotS people will be saying "wait until LotV" (some already are). After LotV gets released and the major issues remain, the game will collapse. It's already lost half of the active player base, has not caught on in Korea and China (I think), while foreign spectators are losing interest due to Korean dominance.
Good luck with that kind of a game. ;p
Quite sad how putting "BW" in the thread title will bring on all these "SC2 sucks and is doomed!"-types.
Mind pointing out where I'm wrong? How are the delayed expansion packs not life support when nearly all SC2 players feel that way? "Wait until the game gets released", "wait a year", "wait until HotS", "wait until LotV"...
I've offered constructive criticism regarding Sc2 ever since the game was announced. Don't play me down by labeling me as a mindless hater...
You have absolutely no idea how nearly all SC2 players feel. If anything, the tens of thousands of people watching Dreamhack right now seem to be enjoying the game as it is. The expansions will just add on to that enjoyment we get from the game.
Let me guess, your constructive criticism has been mostly about making the game BW redux? Yeah well, that train has passed. I think its best you stop wasting your time here.
You must've missed literally dozens of threads and articles pointing out SC2's flaws and SC2 apologists using the very arguments I've mentioned. "Give it time."
On June 18 2012 05:47 alexanderzero wrote: Well they tried putting a lot of those units into SC2 early on but they didn't work out. For example units clump up too much in SC2 making the lurker extremely overpowered, which is why it was removed. Besides who really wants to play the same game over again?
As Jony Ive has said, 'It's very easy to be different, but very difficult to be better.'
Such is the case with SC2, and Browder has taken the easy way out. I don't blame him for wanting to keep his job in this economy, but I can blame him for not having the courage to try to out-do broodwar.
What a stupid thing to say. You just contradicted yourself.
First of all, straw man. I'm not advocating a BW reskin. I already listed the improvements in new features that they added. I am advocating having almost all units have a high micro skill ceiling and/or moving shot micro, and unit spacing where they don't overlap. Not that hard. I don't care if the vulture comes back if the hellion can have moving shot.
Secondly, I didn't contradict myself, you misread my statement.
I implied that Browder wasn't capable of out-doing broodwar so he tried to be more different.
Also, the lurker was overpowered in BW, that's the point. All he had to do was fix unit spacing (something anyone can do in the map editor in a few minutes) or nerf damage a bit to be IMBA but not too IMBA. Done. But really, 'they didn't work out' was just an excuse to satisfy his urge to do new stuff as a designer. I understand that, I'm a designer too. But new isn't always better.
On June 18 2012 05:47 alexanderzero wrote: Well they tried putting a lot of those units into SC2 early on but they didn't work out. For example units clump up too much in SC2 making the lurker extremely overpowered, which is why it was removed. Besides who really wants to play the same game over again?
The simple solution to that problem is to stop unit clumping. Blizzard's far too narrowminded to do something like that though.
DBro feels he must maintain the status quo or risk destroying the game. This is patently retarded.
On June 18 2012 05:47 alexanderzero wrote: Well they tried putting a lot of those units into SC2 early on but they didn't work out. For example units clump up too much in SC2 making the lurker extremely overpowered, which is why it was removed. Besides who really wants to play the same game over again?
The simple solution to that problem is to stop unit clumping. Blizzard's far too narrowminded to do something like that though.
DBro feels he must maintain the status quo or risk destroying the game. This is patently retarded.
Yes, he talks the talk about staying open-minded and being willing to change anything in terms of units and game design, but the reality is he'd rather just worry about unit concepts and will likely never touch those fundamental elements that would improve the game. I don't know why, he has two expansions that give him an excuse to do so. They'll be new games anyway, he might as well play with that stuff too.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e8R18.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/flehG.jpg)
