Haha I feel for once that my posts were valid instead of a pile of steaming hot swarm. All I'm saying is fast 3rd hatch vs FFE is standard as hell zerg play, random rocks negate it.
I mean this is very obviously a good change, glad to hear they did it.
But now my question is, if they can update a map in a week or whatever before it's ever released in ladder, why not update your ladder maps to WCS versions being they have had forever to do it?
On June 12 2012 09:06 Diamond wrote: I mean this is very obviously a good change, glad to hear they did it.
But now my question is, if they can update a map in a week or whatever before it's ever released in ladder, why not update your ladder maps to WCS versions being they have had forever to do it?
Better yet why dont blizzard works and actually listen to ESV and Crux guys it blows my mind instead of some randoms "hey ur map is cool well put in on ladder and add rocks to it"
Hard to understand why they were there in the first place. As if they didn't get enough flak and jokes about rocks before... o_O... well I guess now everyone can be happy and believe for a short period that blizzard can do something competent >.>
Seems like a weird choice. I mean I am just judging off pictures but there didnt seem to really be anything to stop that from being a 4th base. Heck if its anything but close positions I would make it that 4th my 3rd as zerg because the standard third has basically a huge "please drop me right above the base" sign right near it.
wowowow never thought I'd read that blizzard decided LESS destructible rocks on a map was a good idea! Maybe this trend will continue with future ladder maps? I remember in some interview recently (from MLG maybe?) Mr. Destructible Rocks Dustin Bowder said that if the community was pushing in the direction of open macro maps they'd be receptive.
Good to see Blizzard making changes to these maps. I find it alittle weird that they're not just taking more maps from the pools of current tournaments though.
Also: I think entombed really should go. It's just a bad map due to the placement of the 3rd base, I think the ramp leading up to that particular position should be widened to the very least. That may not make much a difference however and maybe it'd be best to simply remove the map altogether. I also think certain maps need to be taken away cause they're alittle outdated in terms of design. Tal-darim comes to mind, that map is terrible for a few reasons: PvP always comes down to earlygame allins, creep spread is really annoying for zergs due to the hills, the close positions are undesirable, and the rocks at the third are just bleh, I don't think anyone likes those. I'm alright with larger sized maps, but Tal-darim needs a makeover or just another map to take its place.
I also think we need more maps that take design ideas from Daybreak. Daybreak was voted best map of 2011 and one of the reasons for this was because it promoted macro play but at the same time there were alot of dynamics to how all-ins could be executed. Proxy structures (pylons, rax, etc.) could be hidden in a number of areas, and denying scouting before doing (for example) a roach bane allin in ZvT actually took some effort.
man before this i was trying to pick which of my already crossed off maps id have to start playing again so i could avoid this, but now i think itll be one my favourites for a while
On June 12 2012 09:50 hifriend wrote: They probably just replaced them with the collapsible rocks; their most recent advancement in rock technology.
They probably have a collapsable rock in your natural now, so the scout only have to get to your nat and deal 10 damage to teh collapsable rock for it to fall down and block your nat. Same at all other expansions on the map. The reason it took them so long to do this change is that they tried to figure out a way to do this, AND keep the rocks.
On June 12 2012 09:50 hifriend wrote: They probably just replaced them with the collapsible rocks; their most recent advancement in rock technology.
They probably have a collapsable rock in your natural now, so the scout only have to get to your nat and deal 10 damage to teh collapsable rock for it to fall down and block your nat. Same at all other expansions on the map. The reason it took them so long to do this change is that they tried to figure out a way to do this, AND keep the rocks.
Rocks infront of your minerals in the main so you have to destroy them before you can mine.
On June 12 2012 09:50 hifriend wrote: They probably just replaced them with the collapsible rocks; their most recent advancement in rock technology.
They probably have a collapsable rock in your natural now, so the scout only have to get to your nat and deal 10 damage to teh collapsable rock for it to fall down and block your nat. Same at all other expansions on the map. The reason it took them so long to do this change is that they tried to figure out a way to do this, AND keep the rocks.
I know your not being serious but collapsable rocks have about 500hp in all the shots i've seen them in so far in HotS.
On June 12 2012 09:50 hifriend wrote: They probably just replaced them with the collapsible rocks; their most recent advancement in rock technology.
They probably have a collapsable rock in your natural now, so the scout only have to get to your nat and deal 10 damage to teh collapsable rock for it to fall down and block your nat. Same at all other expansions on the map. The reason it took them so long to do this change is that they tried to figure out a way to do this, AND keep the rocks.
I know your not being serious but collapsable rocks have about 500hp in all the shots i've seen them in so far in HotS.
After killing those 500 hp collapsable rocks, you will have new rocks with 2k hp, like everywhere
Well, it's still a bad map, but just the fact that Blizzard paid this much attention to complaints about a single new map for the next season is actually mind blowing. I Mean, it's a standard we've come to expect from Blizzard, but I am pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find any other company willing to do this and be this awesome <3
On June 12 2012 09:06 Diamond wrote: I mean this is very obviously a good change, glad to hear they did it.
But now my question is, if they can update a map in a week or whatever before it's ever released in ladder, why not update your ladder maps to WCS versions being they have had forever to do it?
My thoughts exactly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy about the change, but with this level of turn-around speed, I sure wish they would update current maps and fix Metropolis.
haha i feel like blizz trolled us with the rocks and knew there would be outrage and were trying to restore our confidence in them. Stupid theories for the win!
Is it just me that actually feels it would be a good idea if some maps where different, forcing different builds. It's kind of silly right now that maps nearly has no effect at all on which build people choose.
On June 12 2012 10:34 Theovide wrote: Is it just me that actually feels it would be a good idea if some maps where different, forcing different builds. It's kind of silly right now that maps nearly has no effect at all on which build people choose.
I really like this map, seems like its been ages since a map has has a big main base and has some great potential for better medivac harass, both in the main and on the high ground behind the third where you could potentially drop seige tanks and abuse the high ground at a zerg's third base.
On June 12 2012 10:21 Cereb wrote: Well, it's still a bad map, but just the fact that Blizzard paid this much attention to complaints about a single new map for the next season is actually mind blowing. I Mean, it's a standard we've come to expect from Blizzard, but I am pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find any other company willing to do this and be this awesome <3
In short:
Blizzard > all!
I'd be wary of praising a company for their willingness to go into a program and pressing delete a couple of times.
I actually think the rocks weren't a big deal. They made taking a really early third not super-safe, but the next base wasn't very far away. The problem with this map was (and still is) the close spawns. ZvP is no longer impossible in those positions thanks to the removal of the rocks (in fact it's possible that Zerg is now favoured as Zerg cheese will turn up fast as shit and be pretty much unscoutable), however any game where you spawn close positions will suck balls. I don't need any help with my Terran, Blizzard, but thanks for the thought .
On June 12 2012 09:13 Cocoba wrote: Only really benefits the zerg I hate the 3 early base zerg style, too strong T.T
It makes for more diverse play. When a zerg can't take an early third, it usually forces the zerg to do some two base all in or the zerg must open two base muta or two base infestor. Both of the ladder strats are out of date so not blocking the third balances out the map.
On June 12 2012 09:13 Cocoba wrote: Only really benefits the zerg I hate the 3 early base zerg style, too strong T.T
It makes for more diverse play. When a zerg can't take an early third, it usually forces the zerg to do some two base all in or the zerg must open two base muta or two base infestor. Both of the ladder strats are out of date so not blocking the third balances out the map.
You know what also makes for bad games ? Guaranteing a Zerg third within 5 minutes in TvZ . Forces the Terran to play ultra greedy or all-in like crazy but hey Zerg is more important than anything else i guess.
On June 12 2012 09:08 mrafaeldie12 wrote: Diminish the size of ramp now? It takes 4 buildings to fully wallof with FFE...
That sounds like a fair proposition, considering they removed the rocks at the third. Can't make it ENTIRELY a Zerg map. I normal sized ramp sounds fair, I dont think it would bee game breaking. However, if they REALLYwant to cater to Zergs, they could always leave the ramp large, leave the rocks out, and put creep at all the natural expansions . Maybe multiple entrances to all the naturals, too? We could call it Ridge of the Swarm!
For HotS,catering to Zerflg is obviously good. Honestly though they really need to make it so Zerg spawns with a Queen in addition to the 6 Drones. I mean, Protoss starts off with Chronoboost, right?
our prayers have been answered boys. Word on the street is, just before this picture ---> http://i.imgur.com/BcKwC.jpg dustin browder let out a shriek and ripped the rocks from condemned ridge
Terran was uber strong for almost all of the Wings of Liberty days, Blizzard needs to buff Zerg so Z can dominate HotS! If they want to buff Protoss, save it for Legacy of the Void! And 1 food Roaches also, please. Zerg isn't swarmy enough, Roaches need buff. Maybe give banelings move while burrowed back?
On June 12 2012 09:13 Cocoba wrote: Only really benefits the zerg I hate the 3 early base zerg style, too strong T.T
It makes for more diverse play. When a zerg can't take an early third, it usually forces the zerg to do some two base all in or the zerg must open two base muta or two base infestor. Both of the ladder strats are out of date so not blocking the third balances out the map.
You know what also makes for bad games ? Guaranteing a Zerg third within 5 minutes in TvZ . Forces the Terran to play ultra greedy or all-in like crazy but hey Zerg is more important than anything else i guess.
So nothing is going to change what so ever about terran play.
While they're at it they should remove the rocks from Tal Darim as well! It's a terrible map ... But at least this is progress in the right direction :D Blizzard maps are slowly getting to a somewhat acceptable level. Still far from Daybreak tho...
On June 12 2012 12:34 mnck wrote: While they're at it they should remove the rocks from Tal Darim as well! It's a terrible map ... But at least this is progress in the right direction :D Blizzard maps are slowly getting to a somewhat acceptable level. Still far from Daybreak tho...
I don't think they could remove the rocks from TDA, I think fast third -> muta styles would be too good. 2base muta is already a viable way to play the map just due to the layout, despite how bad of a build 2base muta typically is, and if you could add an easy third to that, a muta build with proper scouting would be so incredibly good.
On June 12 2012 09:13 Cocoba wrote: Only really benefits the zerg I hate the 3 early base zerg style, too strong T.T
It makes for more diverse play. When a zerg can't take an early third, it usually forces the zerg to do some two base all in or the zerg must open two base muta or two base infestor. Both of the ladder strats are out of date so not blocking the third balances out the map.
You know what also makes for bad games ? Guaranteing a Zerg third within 5 minutes in TvZ . Forces the Terran to play ultra greedy or all-in like crazy but hey Zerg is more important than anything else i guess.
So nothing is going to change what so ever about terran play.
Probably because anything else is an autoloss against Zerg . There's no safe build that works in TvZ .
On June 12 2012 12:34 mnck wrote: While they're at it they should remove the rocks from Tal Darim as well! It's a terrible map ... But at least this is progress in the right direction :D Blizzard maps are slowly getting to a somewhat acceptable level. Still far from Daybreak tho...
Tal'darim without the rocks would be unplayable in TvZ shown before they've been in tournaments where for whatever reason a map without rocks was played. The Zerg would just autowin.
The game shoudnt be balanced by having rocks at the 3d all the time. And I thought zerg was suposed to be up one base vs the other races. Well if thats not true blizzard should balance that with the races not by fing rocks. Idk why there need to be rocks and watch towers and useless grass on every map for no reason, instead of being unique to a few maps so its way more exiting. Besides the only one of these that even have inpact on gameplay are the rocks. Grass and watchtowers could also have impact if blizzard went a little fancy with them, but they dont, which is sad.
I hope in the future destructible anything will be as unique to a map as it was in brood war and watch towers, grass and collapsable rocks only add to that.
On June 12 2012 21:46 CrtBalorda wrote: The game shoudnt be balanced by having rocks at the 3d all the time. And I thought zerg was suposed to be up one base vs the other races.
Zerg was supposed to be up one TOWN HALL vs the other races, because it's a production facility.
There should not be a god-given right to 50% more income.
On June 12 2012 21:46 CrtBalorda wrote: The game shoudnt be balanced by having rocks at the 3d all the time. And I thought zerg was suposed to be up one base vs the other races. Well if thats not true blizzard should balance that with the races not by fing rocks. Idk why there need to be rocks and watch towers and useless grass on every map for no reason, instead of being unique to a few maps so its way more exiting. Besides the only one of these that even have inpact on gameplay are the rocks. Grass and watchtowers could also have impact if blizzard went a little fancy with them, but they dont, which is sad.
I hope in the future destructible anything will be as unique to a map as it was in brood war and watch towers, grass and collapsable rocks only add to that.
Base doesn't mean income up. Three Base income against two will put the Zerg ahead. If there's no risk involved with taking and saturating a third mining base Zerg will just be at an advantage.
On June 12 2012 09:35 sluggaslamoo wrote: Only took them 2 years ...
Posts like this make me sick..why you complain ? , you complain after good decission ? What 2 year... its new map.. Blizzarda haters start to piss me offf really hard..I understand complain after bad decission..but after good one ?
On June 12 2012 09:13 Cocoba wrote: Only really benefits the zerg I hate the 3 early base zerg style, too strong T.T
It makes for more diverse play. When a zerg can't take an early third, it usually forces the zerg to do some two base all in or the zerg must open two base muta or two base infestor. Both of the ladder strats are out of date so not blocking the third balances out the map.
You know what also makes for bad games ? Guaranteing a Zerg third within 5 minutes in TvZ . Forces the Terran to play ultra greedy or all-in like crazy but hey Zerg is more important than anything else i guess.
So nothing is going to change what so ever about terran play.
Probably because anything else is an autoloss against Zerg . There's no safe build that works in TvZ .
On June 12 2012 21:42 Iyerbeth wrote: Oh, I could keep my Lings nibbling on rocks on thirds for years. Now I'll have to buy them all chew toys or something.
*Pulls up depots to protect the marines behind them* Don't nibble my units!
my imagined dustin browder response: "You know what? Let's make it look like we're taking out rocks. Then put them back in as a group of rocks. That's right. a destructible debris field, so I screw zergs over even more >:D"
This is stupid. I don't know why people are so happy, they must play zerg or play protoss deathball. 3 close bases with only one entrance, that has a small choke. You won't be able to punish a zerg for taking a quick third on this map with spines and queens at their choke. Defend, max or close to max on 3 bases, take 4th, move out. If they're going to take away destructable rocks, they should at least add another entrace to the base.
This will be the first map for me to veto. Actually, it would probably be easier to just switch to zerg, with how strong they are now. They'll probably be even stronger in HOTS.
Memo from Blizzard: "We understand from community feedback that blocking third base locations with destructable rocks is disliked by the majority of players. We understand, and have updated our maps accordingly. Third bases are now blocked by indestructable rocks.
Please keep the constructive feedback coming so that we can continue to improve your playing experience. Thank you."
Good move by blizzard--never seen destructible rocks removed before and it's nice to see them going in a direction that is even more community feedback oriented than before (when dealing with maps, that is)
Condemned Ridge is the worst ladder map in the pool right now. It is simply the worst. Cross spawns make TDA look small. 3 games so far I've cross spawned vs Zerg and all 3 games the Zerg just doesn't even try to kill my push, he just counters and wins. The rush distance is just too long. Blizzard needs to train their map makers.
I dunno, I'm liking this map a lot. Maybe it's problems haven't cemented in my head, but this is drop central for Terrans.
The only thing I don't like is there's so much dead space. I feel this is more of a HOTS map since they're looking to make small engagements more popular in that update.
If only they realised that they just made that map another antiga shipyard. Where do you take your 4th base safely as any race? You've either got to be decisively ahead by the time you're taking your 4th, really lucky, really stupid, or doing a 3 base allin to win on that map.
On June 19 2012 19:18 BigGWesty wrote: If only they realised that they just made that map another antiga shipyard. Where do you take your 4th base safely as any race? You've either got to be decisively ahead by the time you're taking your 4th, really lucky, really stupid, or doing a 3 base allin to win on that map.
Ehh... Whats stopping you from taking the middle base that is away from your opponent? There's no high ground to abuse like on Antiga, and its too big for your opponent to control the entire middle.
On June 19 2012 19:18 BigGWesty wrote: If only they realised that they just made that map another antiga shipyard. Where do you take your 4th base safely as any race? You've either got to be decisively ahead by the time you're taking your 4th, really lucky, really stupid, or doing a 3 base allin to win on that map.
When taking 4th bases you're going into a long macro game most of the time. When starting to go that far into late you you shouldn't be able to take EVERY base safely.
Every base shouldn't be able to be taken super safe.
This is the worst map ive ever seen... 3rd base for protoss ? HAHA.. Another "welcome to world of 2 base allins by blizzard entertainment" again... On this map zerg doesnt even have to micro his roach max out (assuming he is doing it obviously but on this map it doesnt make sense not to do it) So yeah beautiful map that is completely terrible...Fast thirds to holdoff roach max out just simply not possible.
The third base is easy to take. The 4th isn't even that hard to hold on account of the size of the map. Unfortunately I still think the map is a bit too large.
On June 19 2012 20:42 YosHGo wrote: This is the worst map ive ever seen... 3rd base for protoss ? HAHA.. Another "welcome to world of 2 base allins by blizzard entertainment" again... On this map zerg doesnt even have to micro his roach max out (assuming he is doing it obviously but on this map it doesnt make sense not to do it) So yeah beautiful map that is completely terrible...Fast thirds to holdoff roach max out just simply not possible.
Agreed...I play Terran and this map is still ridiculous for zerg; they have 4 hatches by the time i finally get to their base. I can't even image the pain for toss. Why not just put in a 16 player 1v1 map? Maybe the players will just get sleepy and leave...
BTW anyone saying 4th base "is not hard to hold" is obviously a zerg. I've pushed out, cross-positions, on this map and the zerg doubled in supply by the time I finally got there.
On June 19 2012 20:42 YosHGo wrote: This is the worst map ive ever seen... 3rd base for protoss ? HAHA.. Another "welcome to world of 2 base allins by blizzard entertainment" again... On this map zerg doesnt even have to micro his roach max out (assuming he is doing it obviously but on this map it doesnt make sense not to do it) So yeah beautiful map that is completely terrible...Fast thirds to holdoff roach max out just simply not possible.
Agreed...I play Terran and this map is still ridiculous for zerg; they have 4 hatches by the time i finally get to their base. I can't even image the pain for toss. Why not just put in a 16 player 1v1 map? Maybe the players will just get sleepy and leave...
BTW anyone saying 4th base "is not hard to hold" is obviously a zerg. I've pushed out, cross-positions, on this map and the zerg doubled in supply by the time I finally got there.
Kind of agree, the third is too easy to take and I find in PvZ that it's real difficult to beat a player who plays cautious and doesn't make too many bold moves. Cross positions I think is a nightmare on this map, I have it voted down for being too big.
On June 19 2012 20:42 YosHGo wrote: This is the worst map ive ever seen... 3rd base for protoss ? HAHA.. Another "welcome to world of 2 base allins by blizzard entertainment" again... On this map zerg doesnt even have to micro his roach max out (assuming he is doing it obviously but on this map it doesnt make sense not to do it) So yeah beautiful map that is completely terrible...Fast thirds to holdoff roach max out just simply not possible.
Agreed...I play Terran and this map is still ridiculous for zerg; they have 4 hatches by the time i finally get to their base. I can't even image the pain for toss. Why not just put in a 16 player 1v1 map? Maybe the players will just get sleepy and leave...
BTW anyone saying 4th base "is not hard to hold" is obviously a zerg. I've pushed out, cross-positions, on this map and the zerg doubled in supply by the time I finally got there.
Kind of agree, the third is too easy to take and I find in PvZ that it's real difficult to beat a player who plays cautious and doesn't make too many bold moves. Cross positions I think is a nightmare on this map, I have it voted down for being too big.
Yeah I came in to this topic hoping to find help with the 12 minute roach max as a Toss. I like this map in PvT and PvP but I find it impossible against zerg. Does anyone have any ideas how i should sim city to defend my third? It feels completely exposed. I feel like it could be fixed with some slight improvements to make defending the third a little easier.
EPT
. Maybe multiple entrances to all the naturals, too? We could call it Ridge of the Swarm!
![[image loading]](http://i.minus.com/iA51kjRXdn52Q.gif)
