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On June 09 2012 22:01 Gosi wrote:
You know what, after seeing Terran in action I would actually be okay with most of the stuff in HotS if they buffed tanks a bit. With the new mines, warhound, battle hellion, BFH hellions, thor and starport units and stronger tanks I think Terran will be able to actually come up with some kind of 3/3 mech deathball like in BW.
Maybe I'm asking for to much tho?
Nah, I think buffing tanks would be okay. Too many things to counter them, if you take damzge from them you should be punished more.
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On June 09 2012 21:56 Treble557 wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks the widow mine and oracle are broken as shit and need to be changed/removed?
Everyone else seems to be overly focused on the 22 range slow hitting tempest, eventho the oracles just 100% shut you down and the widow mines just blow you up, and both come way early and are relatively cost effective.
Also, wtf is with all the hydra spamming? Did they drop the cost on them? or are all the zergs seriously blowing all their money on hydras in these games?
*edit*
It'd be badass btw if widow mines had FF splash dmg. You could go all sorts of jihad with zerglings then. XD
They are crazy strong, they'll likely not make it out of beta the way they are.
As for Hydralisks, the players in the example games are just using them to try and illustrate the hive tech speed upgrade. They are still too expensive for their health and will likely not be used very much.
Based on what we've seen I'm wondering how Zerg detection will hold up against the new wave of early game cloak/burrow power than Protoss and Terran are going to have.
It feels like they've completely killed the point of ever going bio against Zerg.
It will be interesting to see how much they have to change the Protoss additions, because right now the Mothership Core and Oracle look beyond ridiculous. The expensive Tempest and it's +12 range upgrade might be getting all the attention, but the Mothership Core and the Oracle are really what people should be talking about. A unit that can't be killed by anything aside from Fungal (or unluckily flying over a Widow mine) having the ability to deny mining repeatedly and cloak an army very early on in the game, which can be recharged to full energy regularly by the Mothership Core.
So far I like the Terran additions the most, although they make the Terran early-mid game look incredibly scary, I feel they suit what the Terran race is about. The Zerg additions are very hit and miss, it feels like Zerg will have more power to finish an opponent off when they are ahead now, but the early game is going to be a very rocky ride against what Terran and Protoss look to be getting. The Protoss additions are ridiculous and I can't see most of them making it into the game in their current guise.
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On June 09 2012 22:29 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:01 Gosi wrote:
You know what, after seeing Terran in action I would actually be okay with most of the stuff in HotS if they buffed tanks a bit. With the new mines, warhound, battle hellion, BFH hellions, thor and starport units and stronger tanks I think Terran will be able to actually come up with some kind of 3/3 mech deathball like in BW.
Maybe I'm asking for to much tho? Nah, I think buffing tanks would be okay. Too many things to counter them, if you take damzge from them you should be punished more.
Yes tanks should be buffed. We have to remember they were nerfed at a much different time. I mean, Steppes of War.... of course they're going to be OP on terribly small maps.
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i dont like the swarm host and the viper. it seems just like they KNOW lurker and defiler are needed and are cluless what else they could give zerg. so they alter the lurker and defiler a bit so they do not have to bring too much bw into sc2.
yet alone i see so much more potential of dark swarm and the lurker to what blizzard came up with. i dont know, it feels half assed tbh.
btw more lasers for brotoss. 22 range ftw lol
terrible terrible damage...
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On June 09 2012 22:29 avc wrote:
It will be interesting to see how much they have to change the Protoss additions, because right now the Mothership Core and Oracle look beyond ridiculous. The expensive Tempest and it's +12 range upgrade might be getting all the attention, but the Mothership Core and the Oracle are really what people should be talking about. A unit that can't be killed by anything aside from Fungal (or unluckily flying over a Widow mine) having the ability to deny mining repeatedly and cloak an army very early on in the game, which can be recharged to full energy regularly by the Mothership Core.
Interessing.
If you open with a fast stargate, I bet you can hit a timing with a pretty nice army under a cloak field from a full energy oracle before zerg can have Lair tech. =o
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On June 09 2012 22:29 avc wrote:
It will be interesting to see how much they have to change the Protoss additions, because right now the Mothership Core and Oracle look beyond ridiculous. The expensive Tempest and it's +12 range upgrade might be getting all the attention, but the Mothership Core and the Oracle are really what people should be talking about. A unit that can't be killed by anything aside from Fungal (or unluckily flying over a Widow mine) having the ability to deny mining repeatedly and cloak an army very early on in the game, which can be recharged to full energy regularly by the Mothership Core.
The oracle costs 200 gas and comes from the stargate - we probably won't see it in PvT due to the latter reason alone. Since PvZ will most likely still be FFE vs fast 3 base I don't see why you wouldn't be able to counter an oracle-opening by going for fast 4th base. I realize that this is 100% theory-craft, but considering that the oracle seems to be extremely expensive by having exactly zero dps the perfect counter seems to be the hatchery.
EDIT: the cloaking field could turn out to be the main problem though
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A unit with a range of 22 doesn’t seem very spectator friendly, but as a Protoss player I am looking forward to using it.
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On June 09 2012 22:38 fuzzz wrote:
i dont like the swarm host and the viper. it seems just like they KNOW lurker and defiler are needed and are cluless what else they could give zerg. so they alter the lurker and defiler a bit so they do not have to bring too much bw into sc2.
yet alone i see so much more potential of dark swarm and the lurker to what blizzard came up with. i dont know, it feels half assed tbh.
btw more lasers for brotoss. 22 range ftw lol
terrible terrible damage...
maybe the reason you see much more potential in the lurker and defiler than these new units is because the lurker and defiler have both been played and experimented with for 10 years, while the new ones aren't even publically playable yet...
the lurker and defiler come from a completely different gameplay enviroment, with completely different macro/micro mechanics and unit stats. if you'd want to bring those units over to hots, you need to either revamp them almost completely(which would make a lot of people angry) or revamp everything else to accomodate for these units(which would make a lot of people angry). this way they're creating a different playstyle within a similar role, giving the t3 zerg another option instead of the ultra slow broodlord infestor.
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When HotS beta started? One week after MLG?
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Italy12248 Posts
I don't think it will be problematic tbh. If 7gate void ray allins aren't problematic in pvz, it seems quite unlikely that removing the void rays from that army to add oracles (keeping in mind that zerg will have spores down already since you opened stargate) will cause issues.
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On June 09 2012 22:26 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:21 FeyFey wrote:On June 09 2012 22:03 ShatterZer0 wrote:On June 09 2012 21:32 najreteip wrote:On June 09 2012 21:19 1A1A1A wrote:
Maybe it's just me but I think blizzard want the tempest to snipe infestors, without getting hit by fungal growth.
On the zergs end, we might see a similar scenario to the warp prism/ht micro that goes on in pvt. Honestly, tempest seems like a decent way to solve a lot of the problems surrounding current lategame pvz, no more archon toilet vs mass brood we'll have to see what happens, but I think there's a lot of potential in this current HOTS build. Hopefully beta starts soon and the balancing can truly begin It also helps that archon toilet no longer exists vs broods. Vortex only affects ground units! I wonder if this means units will no longer have 1.5 second invincibility when leaving the vortex. it basically means your infestors would be gone while voidrays rip through your broodlords that are to slow to get away from above the vortex. Archon toilet is gone, but broodlords are even more vortex victims now. If the 1.5 seconds would be removed archon toilet would work against ground units again, so i guess that stays. But an evil Oracle can now hover over the vortex make everything invisible, while your arial detection units are all chased away by toss air units. Moving in the Vortex with your ground army is more suicide then ever ^.^. Really like how they try to break up the death balls. I love it when people can say about how the game will turn out without even playing it.
I never even mentioned how it will turn out, but what they are trying to achieve. And was just giving an example how an army with air but no air to air would end up against an Mothership with an air fleet alongside (or if someone just uses air detection). Which is a current WoL strategy, that we might never see in HotS, as well as the expansion is no Gold Status, which means everything can still change. If you dislike discussion, this thread might not be for you if you can't filter out discussion from information.
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I still think people worrying about the Oracle don't understand how Protoss plays very well. Fundamentally, it's a 200 gas paperweight from a 150 gas Stargate, which is a tech tree without much actual combat utility. The cloaking field might help, but it feels like a gimmick, and it sure as hell won't stop a Terran from pushing your third. It might work against Zerg as a neo-Bisu-build thing, where you snipe overseers with Pheonix and are therefore unattackable until they get real anti-air.
The main advantage of an Oracle, as opposed to a drop or other kind of air harass - which actually does real damage in addition to denying mining - is that it costs very little supply, so having three fly around the map in a lategame situation could be very annoying, while not taking much away from the Protoss standing army. Still, lategame Terran and Zerg both have ways of dealing with this kind of thing.
I'm somewhat annoyed by Dustin Browder referring to the Oracle as the "Protoss raider", as if it's supposed to solve some kind of deficiency in Protoss design, Protoss already has a bunch of ways to harass in the lategame, the problem is that they're too expensive to safely deploy in the midgame, where Protosses are forced to turtle and tech. And the Oracle really does not address this weakness.
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Lol people still didn't figure out the main purpose of Tempest. What have been toss complaining most about PvZ? Broodlords!! noobs...
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Wow Day9 is a total sellout as usual,..? The videos are so scripted that Im about to throw up. :S
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On June 09 2012 22:38 fuzzz wrote:
i dont like the swarm host and the viper. it seems just like they KNOW lurker and defiler are needed and are cluless what else they could give zerg. so they alter the lurker and defiler a bit so they do not have to bring too much bw into sc2.
yet alone i see so much more potential of dark swarm and the lurker to what blizzard came up with. i dont know, it feels half assed tbh.
btw more lasers for brotoss. 22 range ftw lol
terrible terrible damage...
tempest does not fire lazor
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On June 09 2012 22:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Lol people still didn't figure out the main purpose of Tempest. What have been toss complaining most about PvZ? Broodlords!! noobs...
Especially since Archon Toilet is now gone in HOTS,  definitely needs something vs Broodlords. Wished buffed Carriers were the answer rather than Tempest 
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I just hate the new units for terran. We need spider mines and strong tanks to zone out protoss, not transformers and banelings to a-move at protoss. We need goliaths for mech AA, not that abortion of art design that is the warhound. Nothing about any of the new stuff is appealing to me in terms of aesthetics or usefulness.
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On June 09 2012 22:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Lol people still didn't figure out the main purpose of Tempest. What have been toss complaining most about PvZ? Broodlords!! noobs... Especially since Archon Toilet is now gone in HOTS, definitely needs something vs Broodlords. Wished buffed Carriers were the answer rather than Tempest
If only Protoss had a flying unit that is supposed to be good against massive and armored units...
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It would be so cool if Tempest just launched their energy bolt in the direction of their first target, and then you can dodge if you're quick and the projectile doesn't actually track the target.
You could balance around that idea with the damage/range/rof of the Tempest and projectile velocity, but I think it would make for very interesting micro.
As it stands, it's more of a low DPS long range sniper unit, which can be fine, but could be funnier.
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On June 09 2012 23:00 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 22:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 09 2012 22:55 -Archangel- wrote:
Lol people still didn't figure out the main purpose of Tempest. What have been toss complaining most about PvZ? Broodlords!! noobs... Especially since Archon Toilet is now gone in HOTS, definitely needs something vs Broodlords. Wished buffed Carriers were the answer rather than Tempest If only Protoss had a flying unit that is supposed to be good against massive and armored units...
It's the Infestors part of Broodlord+Infestors that makes it difficult. That's why Tempest has retarded range, to avoid the Infetsies. Blizz overdid the range, but that's the idea behind it.
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EPT
