On June 09 2012 11:58 eden-san wrote: And more importantly I do agree with people complaining about SC2 morphing into a WC3 kinda game with so many abilities around in each and every unit, kinda afraid that all those changes might entirely change the actual gameplay...
Brood gave the player a whole new set of units that required him to rethink his army comps and strategies without introducing any sort of game-breaking abilities, which allowed Blizzard to ensure that even if balance was broken only slight tweaks would be required to restore it. HotS gives us game-breaking abilities in almost every unit, the kind of abilities that can end games directly... Impossible to truly balance imo and completely stupid. It also seems to dumb down early game by giving every one ways to scare off the opponent (PF-like add-on for Nexus, burrowed swarm host means you need detection before entering Z's base, and T... Well T).
A few good changes still: - Hydras speed is greatly appreciated and not game breaking, merely renders them finally relevant end-game. - Ultras charge is cool without being overpowered.
- Versatile, anti-biological hellions and anti-armored warhounds will make mech T an actually viable option in every match-up imo. - Battlecruisers being buffed always is a welcomed change, even though a little underwhelming imo. I guess they made it to escape those widow mines LOLZ :D
- I actually find tempest to be an interesting unit that will add more depth to any engagement, will make positioning even more important (core mechanics of all Starcraft games).
Now for what I think sucks: - Mothership core doesn't add more depth to the strategy of the game, I actually think it diminishes it. - Oracle, from the video you can see how Z was pretty much denied most mining from a base thanks to that one Oracle, and then it got that vision spell (with no possibility to dispell?), and then the cloak... Jesus. - Tanks were already not used much vP, useless vZ end-game... What of it now? :D - Reaper healing, lulz, that suddenly make them so much more useful eh? I feel like they could remove the factory requirement on the speed upgrade now that queen range was buffed. - Swarm host and Vipers... Effectively making Z a slower caster race... Really Blizzard? Really?!
lol, swarm host is fucking cool man. I don't know why you think it sucks, a siege breaker unit? Zerg has been yearning for a before broodlord type of unit. I love it.
I still don't see how this is a siege breaker. Imagine today we get the swarm host, only role I'd find them would be to repel early pressure... After that the money spent on them is money you didn't spend on fast units for counter measures, so to me it is only a defensive unit for early pressure.
You'd really need a lot of them to have any sort of impact as it is now, and in big engagements I'd rather have more hydras/ling/bling rather than that, because just like tanks they are very immobile and requires you to move step by step to be able to use them... Makes your supposedly fast overwhelming ground army suddenly a slow ass one.
As for the overal feeling I got from it it feels like as if you could send waves of drones at the other guy without suffering any cost... Sure it's free, free food for collossi/tanks :D
On June 09 2012 12:00 ImNightmare wrote: [quote] lol, swarm host is fucking cool man. I don't know why you think it sucks, a siege breaker unit? Zerg has been yearning for a before broodlord type of unit. I love it.
mothership is required, game design wise, for protoss to deal with mass broodlord / infestor / corrupter/ queen for certain timings in end game PvZ (when you are just maxing out, before you have the econ to switch into carriers).. at this timing you can get a vortex to essentially save you from the massive brood lord timings.. if you can not get the vortex for that you will die. the best part is, once zergs reliably split their brood lords, it will not be a simple Vortex = win, it will be a vortex = reduced enough brood damage to allow him to survive.
for people to be angry about the mothership staying, really shows a lack of game knowledge from the community or people are just ignorant.
and about TvP, I've tested it against some high master friends on the HOTS custom map (was accurate for the last version of HOTS) and mech just destroys protoss. Any protoss unit composition can easily be recked by battlehellion/warhound/ghost/viking, and you can almost always be ahead of the protoss w/ this style due to how many hellions you have that can be dropped and kill massive amounts of probes.. mech is finally good against protoss and terrans are still complaining? wuuuuut?
People are complaining because we care more about FUN, then EZ WIN. We miss the Mech style of BW with TANKS and SpiderMine VULTURES.
Right now Blizzard has given us 1a Battle Hellions and 1a Warhounds. Both of which look silly, and boring to play.
Yeah, because everyone has completely figured out how to use all the new units and abilities to their fullest potential, already.
Raven would like to talk to you.
What good are Ravens when they get fungled to death from a mile away. Such an expensive units, takes forever to get the energy for HSM and easily counter by infestors.
So a zerg should spend 4 fungals on a raven rather then the bio force of a terran? I would say that's a good trade.
I guess you didn't realize I meant mech+ravens vs broodlord, corrupter, queen + infestors. Ravens counter broodlord/corrupter very well but with the infestors in there the ravens won't touch the zerg army. Once terrans start to use ravens more, zergs will just be sure to have infestors to deal with them easily.
Ravens don't even have to touch the zerg army. if we were to use your late game scenario, pdd shuts down corrupters and vikings fuck the broodlords. maybe you think it doesn't work, but pro terrans have been using the ravens recently, just watch MLG bro.
I am and nobody build a single Raven yet :O
??? that's weird, I swear I saw one a few hours ago.
On June 09 2012 12:04 Doc Daneeka wrote: i still think entomb and abduct are really dumb, contrived abilities. but i'm liking most of the rest of it. i especially like how they've decided to use the mothership.
You're not using "contrived" in the right way, and "dumb" is really vague. I personally like both the abilities. Both of these abilities will make for much more active gameplay.
Entomb is kinda crazy though, but I like how it works. I like the idea, most probably it will be balanced in Beta.
I hate the idea. It is more of a macro mechanic than a form of harass. There is nothing exciting about flying into your opponents mineral line and back out once every 45 seconds. Its about as interesting as a zerg injecting larva.
Well.. state of the game has talked about it before. Its more of a "pro" unit then a noob unit. Pros will love it, while noobs will hate it because it requires attention. :/
I'm not complaining that it is going to be difficult. I am complaining that there will be nothing interesting or skillful about using it. If you have the energy to cast entomb, then you fly into his mineral line and cast it. There is no decision to be made or strategy to be used. It is as difficult and as interesting as inject larva.
You have no idea how bad it is to freeze one whole mineral base do you? With that income lost, you basically just created a timing window for attack for yourself. Its fucking awesome.
Yeah it's fcking awesome. Other races actually gotta micro and put some work into harassing the enemies ecomony while Toss gets to easily click a button to lock down an entire mining base and then fly away. lololol I don't know why Blizzard likes making Protoss easy and easier to play. Should give Toss units that actually take some micro to use and not just A+move across the map and win.
Woah... I play zerg dude, please don't take it out on me.
On June 09 2012 12:04 Doc Daneeka wrote: i still think entomb and abduct are really dumb, contrived abilities. but i'm liking most of the rest of it. i especially like how they've decided to use the mothership.
You're not using "contrived" in the right way, and "dumb" is really vague. I personally like both the abilities. Both of these abilities will make for much more active gameplay.
Entomb is kinda crazy though, but I like how it works. I like the idea, most probably it will be balanced in Beta.
I hate the idea. It is more of a macro mechanic than a form of harass. There is nothing exciting about flying into your opponents mineral line and back out once every 45 seconds. Its about as interesting as a zerg injecting larva.
Well.. state of the game has talked about it before. Its more of a "pro" unit then a noob unit. Pros will love it, while noobs will hate it because it requires attention. :/
I'm not complaining that it is going to be difficult. I am complaining that there will be nothing interesting or skillful about using it. If you have the energy to cast entomb, then you fly into his mineral line and cast it. There is no decision to be made or strategy to be used. It is as difficult and as interesting as inject larva.
You have no idea how bad it is to freeze one whole mineral base do you? With that income lost, you basically just created a timing window for attack for yourself. Its fucking awesome.
Yeah it's fcking awesome. Other races actually gotta micro and put some work into harassing the enemies ecomony while Toss gets to easily click a button to lock down an entire mining base and then fly away. lololol I don't know why Blizzard likes making Protoss easy and easier to play. Should give Toss units that actually take some micro to use and not just A+move across the map and win.
Woah... I play zerg dude, please don't take it out on me.
I don't get why the Warhound is now a gimmick 1a unit that auto attacks mech. Why not just take out the thor and make them a more expensive viable late game unit? They could give them booster packs similar to SCV's and have them glide instead of run. Allow them to be fairly quick, have a good anti air attack and have a higher DPS ground attack. So that they would be a unit that could be micro'd well to increase it's cost effectiveness instead of this 1a crap.
The problem with Terran is the lack of late game options and we aren't getting anything in HoTS.
On June 09 2012 12:25 Fencer710 wrote: Reapers also have 60 HP, which is great for both the early game and adding Reapers to a Terran late-game Bio composition as a gas dump in TvZ and TvP.
it needs to have a faster build time to be truly viable though imo
Through PF's you can have the time you need to add some Reapers into your army. You can definitely split the map with PF's in TvP and use that time to build up a Marine/Marauder/Reaper/Medivac/Ghost/Viking army and trade very cost effectively.
On June 09 2012 12:04 Doc Daneeka wrote: i still think entomb and abduct are really dumb, contrived abilities. but i'm liking most of the rest of it. i especially like how they've decided to use the mothership.
You're not using "contrived" in the right way, and "dumb" is really vague. I personally like both the abilities. Both of these abilities will make for much more active gameplay.
Entomb is kinda crazy though, but I like how it works. I like the idea, most probably it will be balanced in Beta.
I hate the idea. It is more of a macro mechanic than a form of harass. There is nothing exciting about flying into your opponents mineral line and back out once every 45 seconds. Its about as interesting as a zerg injecting larva.
Well.. state of the game has talked about it before. Its more of a "pro" unit then a noob unit. Pros will love it, while noobs will hate it because it requires attention. :/
I'm not complaining that it is going to be difficult. I am complaining that there will be nothing interesting or skillful about using it. If you have the energy to cast entomb, then you fly into his mineral line and cast it. There is no decision to be made or strategy to be used. It is as difficult and as interesting as inject larva.
You have no idea how bad it is to freeze one whole mineral base do you? With that income lost, you basically just created a timing window for attack for yourself. Its fucking awesome.
I'm also not saying it isn't good. I'm saying that as it stands now it works the same way as inject larva which is stupid for players and is stupid for spectators. Look at the battle report. What can you say about that harass besides "He is spending his energy as well as any player above platinum is expected to."
you are not a shoutcaster, leave that to them. if day 9 and other casters can make something as simple as "OMG LOOK AT THAT CREEP SPREAD" sound exciting, then im sure they can make entombed sound exciting. because lets face it, its not that damn hard to spread creep. im at a diamond level and i can get half the map covered in creep, its not that special, yet they make it sound special because that is there job.
just because you cant think of anything exciting to say about the ability doesnt mean they cant.
mothership is required, game design wise, for protoss to deal with mass broodlord / infestor / corrupter/ queen for certain timings in end game PvZ (when you are just maxing out, before you have the econ to switch into carriers).. at this timing you can get a vortex to essentially save you from the massive brood lord timings.. if you can not get the vortex for that you will die. the best part is, once zergs reliably split their brood lords, it will not be a simple Vortex = win, it will be a vortex = reduced enough brood damage to allow him to survive.
for people to be angry about the mothership staying, really shows a lack of game knowledge from the community or people are just ignorant.
and about TvP, I've tested it against some high master friends on the HOTS custom map (was accurate for the last version of HOTS) and mech just destroys protoss. Any protoss unit composition can easily be recked by battlehellion/warhound/ghost/viking, and you can almost always be ahead of the protoss w/ this style due to how many hellions you have that can be dropped and kill massive amounts of probes.. mech is finally good against protoss and terrans are still complaining? wuuuuut?
People are complaining because we care more about FUN, then EZ WIN. We miss the Mech style of BW with TANKS and SpiderMine VULTURES.
Right now Blizzard has given us 1a Battle Hellions and 1a Warhounds. Both of which look silly, and boring to play.
Yeah, because everyone has completely figured out how to use all the new units and abilities to their fullest potential, already.
Raven would like to talk to you.
What good are Ravens when they get fungled to death from a mile away. Such an expensive units, takes forever to get the energy for HSM and easily counter by infestors.
So a zerg should spend 4 fungals on a raven rather then the bio force of a terran? I would say that's a good trade.
I guess you didn't realize I meant mech+ravens vs broodlord, corrupter, queen + infestors. Ravens counter broodlord/corrupter very well but with the infestors in there the ravens won't touch the zerg army. Once terrans start to use ravens more, zergs will just be sure to have infestors to deal with them easily.
Ravens don't even have to touch the zerg army. if we were to use your late game scenario, pdd shuts down corrupters and vikings fuck the broodlords. maybe you think it doesn't work, but pro terrans have been using the ravens recently, just watch MLG bro.
I am and nobody build a single Raven yet :O
??? that's weird, I swear I saw one a few hours ago.
Dream vs Symbol was offstream and i'm pretty sure i watched the two TvZ . ( Well i didn't watch Illusion vs Mystik but Illusion lost ... )
On June 09 2012 12:04 Doc Daneeka wrote: i still think entomb and abduct are really dumb, contrived abilities. but i'm liking most of the rest of it. i especially like how they've decided to use the mothership.
You're not using "contrived" in the right way, and "dumb" is really vague. I personally like both the abilities. Both of these abilities will make for much more active gameplay.
Entomb is kinda crazy though, but I like how it works. I like the idea, most probably it will be balanced in Beta.
I hate the idea. It is more of a macro mechanic than a form of harass. There is nothing exciting about flying into your opponents mineral line and back out once every 45 seconds. Its about as interesting as a zerg injecting larva.
Well.. state of the game has talked about it before. Its more of a "pro" unit then a noob unit. Pros will love it, while noobs will hate it because it requires attention. :/
I'm not complaining that it is going to be difficult. I am complaining that there will be nothing interesting or skillful about using it. If you have the energy to cast entomb, then you fly into his mineral line and cast it. There is no decision to be made or strategy to be used. It is as difficult and as interesting as inject larva.
You have no idea how bad it is to freeze one whole mineral base do you? With that income lost, you basically just created a timing window for attack for yourself. Its fucking awesome.
I'm also not saying it isn't good. I'm saying that as it stands now it works the same way as inject larva which is stupid for players and is stupid for spectators. Look at the battle report. What can you say about that harass besides "He is spending his energy as well as any player above platinum is expected to."
The toss won dude.. and by cutting income , you are cutting units. Pretty good trade IMO.
I don't think you understand what I am saying. If inject gave a zerg 100 larva it would be stupidly strong, but it would still be as exciting to watch as it is now. Entomb is good. I'm not denying that. The problem is it is fucking boring and the only "skill" involved is casting it every time you get the energy for it. Harassing with entomb works the same way dropping mules does for terran, and they are equally exciting to watch. Entomb is a macro mechanic, not a form of harass.
On June 09 2012 11:58 eden-san wrote: And more importantly I do agree with people complaining about SC2 morphing into a WC3 kinda game with so many abilities around in each and every unit, kinda afraid that all those changes might entirely change the actual gameplay...
Brood gave the player a whole new set of units that required him to rethink his army comps and strategies without introducing any sort of game-breaking abilities, which allowed Blizzard to ensure that even if balance was broken only slight tweaks would be required to restore it. HotS gives us game-breaking abilities in almost every unit, the kind of abilities that can end games directly... Impossible to truly balance imo and completely stupid. It also seems to dumb down early game by giving every one ways to scare off the opponent (PF-like add-on for Nexus, burrowed swarm host means you need detection before entering Z's base, and T... Well T).
A few good changes still: - Hydras speed is greatly appreciated and not game breaking, merely renders them finally relevant end-game. - Ultras charge is cool without being overpowered.
- Versatile, anti-biological hellions and anti-armored warhounds will make mech T an actually viable option in every match-up imo. - Battlecruisers being buffed always is a welcomed change, even though a little underwhelming imo. I guess they made it to escape those widow mines LOLZ :D
- I actually find tempest to be an interesting unit that will add more depth to any engagement, will make positioning even more important (core mechanics of all Starcraft games).
Now for what I think sucks: - Mothership core doesn't add more depth to the strategy of the game, I actually think it diminishes it. - Oracle, from the video you can see how Z was pretty much denied most mining from a base thanks to that one Oracle, and then it got that vision spell (with no possibility to dispell?), and then the cloak... Jesus. - Tanks were already not used much vP, useless vZ end-game... What of it now? :D - Reaper healing, lulz, that suddenly make them so much more useful eh? I feel like they could remove the factory requirement on the speed upgrade now that queen range was buffed. - Swarm host and Vipers... Effectively making Z a slower caster race... Really Blizzard? Really?!
lol, swarm host is fucking cool man. I don't know why you think it sucks, a siege breaker unit? Zerg has been yearning for a before broodlord type of unit. I love it.
I still don't see how this is a siege breaker. Imagine today we get the swarm host, only role I'd find them would be to repel early pressure... After that the money spent on them is money you didn't spend on fast units for counter measures, so to me it is only a defensive unit for early pressure.
You'd really need a lot of them to have any sort of impact as it is now, and in big engagements I'd rather have more hydras/ling/bling rather than that, because just like tanks they are very immobile and requires you to move step by step to be able to use them... Makes your supposedly fast overwhelming ground army suddenly a slow ass one.
As for the overal feeling I got from it it feels like as if you could send waves of drones at the other guy without suffering any cost... Sure it's free, free food for collossi/tanks :D
Viper/Hydra/Swarmhost looks very good in the preview PvZ game, though, combined with fast hive tech to assault the third/fourth of the Protoss.
On June 09 2012 12:34 Solo Terran wrote: I don't get why the Warhound is now a gimmick 1a unit that auto attacks mech. Why not just take out the thor and make them a more expensive viable late game unit? They could give them booster packs similar to SCV's and have them glide instead of run. Allow them to be fairly quick, have a good anti air attack and have a higher DPS ground attack.
The problem with Terran is the lack of late game options and we aren't getting anything in HoTS.
I'm pretty sure the missle that they shoot can be microed by targeting individually which unit you want the missle to hit, you can also just leave the missle on auto-cast which will just shoot at whatever but that's not very effective. Pros will be microing them to hit the units they want with the missle launcher.
WoL's not Terran game, where the fuck that sentinent comes from? It's singleplayer is T centered, just as HotS will be Z centered. Multiplayer experience should be equally balanced and fun for all races, otherwise Blizz is failing big time.
Because it is, blizzard already said Wing's of liberty is a TERRAN'S GAME. You have the most units now. Of course you won't have 5 more units. And in case you didn't count, HoTs allows zerg to have the same amount of units as terran.
Aside from workers, you missed overlords and overseers. They are units too, you know? Not every unit can be a swiss army knife like queen or infestor.
LOL, okay, then lets count your depot as units too. Of course, only the marine can.
Sure, when my depots starts flying around providing almost free scouting, carrying my units and baneling bomb things underneath them.
Until then, no, but good try.
Barracks, factory, starport, CC. Terran flying building with more HP then a overlord AND can produce units oh and they move faster then a overlord. what do you know! And they benefit from the buidling armor.
Until then, no ,but good try. Give it up bro, you are struggling to make yourself right.
Your "until then" comment made no sense here, bad try this time.
And from all races zerg should shut up the most when it comes to counting building as units, with their supply free, low mineral costing, moveable spine and spore clawer. You dug your own grave here.
Yeah.. I think i did. Sigh, spine crawler rush always wins me games. You caught me. I wish though it can be build behind mineral lines where workers can't touch it and I can salvage it for 75% of my income back. oh wait...
Some hints how to use them. Better "units" than gimmicky reapers for sure.
Can the opponent see the widow mine timer too? If yes, that units is one big bullshit. How hard it is to kill or just move away the infested unit when you have like 10 seconds to do so.
On June 09 2012 12:36 HeroMystic wrote: Also, serious question.
Can we all agree that Reaper in this build is worse than it currently is now?
It heals pretty fast, the terran didn't get nitro packs for it so its slow but its understandable since its a show match. I would say it is a good harasser, would love to give it a go
On June 09 2012 12:25 Fencer710 wrote: Reapers also have 60 HP, which is great for both the early game and adding Reapers to a Terran late-game Bio composition as a gas dump in TvZ and TvP.
On June 09 2012 12:36 HeroMystic wrote: Also, serious question.
Can we all agree that Reaper in this build is worse than it currently is now?
I heavily disagree. In the game casted by Day9 and Rob Simpson you can see that a Reaper expand build can definitely be viable for early game harassment and possibly to contain creep, since they now have 60 HP and that 50/50 ability to heal out of combat. You can also bring them along with your mid-game push to kill off some more Zerglings.
EPT
