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Canada13391 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:11 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:08 Adreme wrote:On June 09 2012 08:46 Plansix wrote:On June 09 2012 08:38 Dingobloo wrote:On June 09 2012 08:33 Falling wrote:On June 09 2012 07:48 Splynn wrote:
I think I'm in the vast minority on this... but with the new queen look (I didn't like the way the old queen look), I'm really hoping they tweak the roach a little bit, too. To me it just looks too round and with no real features, I really don't like the way roaches look in general. The new queen is awesome, though. Just wish that the roach could look less like a beachball with spikes.
New queen looks pretty good I think. And I definitely think roach design could use an overhaul. I was just enjoying the unit mix in that battle report and thinking how much better hydra look aesthetically as the core unit rather than the roach. Beachball with spikes it is. But hydra, swarmlord, defiler thingy looked pretty cool. Yeah, staying active with that unit is just can be so valuable. I mean, every time you are able to land the shields onto those minerals- that’s guaranteed harassment. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re fast on the reaction. It’s still a small amount of mining time they won’t be able to access. Rob Simpson from the battle report. Although an interesting idea, this is precisely why I think the oracle harass is not very good similar to FF's. I'm sure it will get balanced. But it will never be the unit interaction like BW storms, reaver shots that were big hits or misses depending on who was faster. Or good map awareness with DTs that didn't trigger an alarm when atttacking workers. But this will always be did I get close enough with out being sniped? If yes, then freeze minerals for x amount of time (x amount being tweaked for balance). If no, then no damage. But it requires very little interaction between units/ players reaction time. Sure taking down minerals requires a reaction, but it's not the same as: Did I get close enough without my shuttle getting sniped? If yes, then quickly unload high templar, unleash 1-2 storms before the opposing player races all his workers away for little to no damage. If the opposing player doesn't react, the entire line of workers get's wiped out. But it's all about who is faster, not just on entry, but also on the attack execution. "that’s guaranteed harassment. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re fast on the reaction." I don't particularly like this idea for a harassment unit. I agree, but this also isn't as effective as normal harassment, without killing the workers you're not preventing the snowball nature of economic development, you're merely removing income temporarily, I don't think it will be a replacement for effective late game harassment. Agreed and people will adapt to the harassment quickly. If you watch the report. the bubbles only have 75 HP and can be focused down quickly. Also the Oracle only has 20 shields and 80 HP. It will die if something looks at it sideways. The thing is I think its the fastest thing in the air and it can block static defense so it could still be very useful. I can also see terrans needing to leave a few units behind to deal with it. They never said that in the vid... source?
It used to be the case, I am not sure if they removed it but it wasn't mentioned. I think it is out though since the three abilities on the command card are
cloaking
entomb
vision thingy
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Btw guys, any thoughts on this?
Tempest
Possible use I've thought about is:
1. Start attacking enemy's exp with a tempest or more.
2. Meanwhile, position your army perfectly or just well. <--- army is close to tempest
3. Your opponent may be forced to attack you, while you have good positioning. Potentially won battle.
or...
1. Snipe infestors or swarm hosts.
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On June 09 2012 09:39 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:36 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:32 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:30 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:21 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:19 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:14 obsidia wrote:On June 09 2012 09:00 Vertig0 wrote:
The widow mine looks great, Terran has to figure out the best places to place them, and the opponent has to micro once
really? I cant imagine them being useful under any situation, unless your just playing bronze people all day. Its nice blizzard think about the lower ranked people in development terms, but its certainly doesnt add much to the scene in terms of viability or mixing up current Terran meta When a protoss moves out to attack put mines between his robo and his army. Put mines behind your mineral lines and he loses his 200 gas Oracle for free. I could just place a few Turrets for defense ? The mine right now looks a gigantic gimmick . Why the hell does Terran need another gimmick we already have Ravens/Reapers .Why do we need another Unit with no real use in combat situations ? I'm glad you agree the oracle is worthless as a harasser. If the mine actually is as bad as you think it is, you are only getting screwed as badly as protoss is. Beyond that, you can't be cost effectively attacked if your opponent doesn't have detection. That is an unbelievable amount of utility. ANd other than Terran who doesn't build mobile detection units ? Observers,Overseers aren't a big investment. If you see a protoss clearing your minefield, scan and snipe the obs with two vikings. Because of the mines his army has to be behind the obs. If he has no Colossi or Air though guess what i don't have , Vikings ...
If you have a reactor starport and are making medivacs, guess what you can make easily, specifically for this purpose, 2 vikings...
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It's funny how a lot of the new stuff is inspired from BW. You know when the nostalgic BW fans start mentioning all the missing cool units we had and it naturally keeps coming because it fits together and counters each other so well. I always thought you have to reach for at least some of those if you really want to make this game better. One thing I really don't like is trying to keep hero units like Mothership, it just feels so wrong to use them in Starcraft, maybe leave them for Campaign, but definitely not for competitive play.
I haven't seen the new videos or any play and this is really too big change (like SC->BW) to judge this early without watching all the possible uses and different situations.
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On June 09 2012 09:39 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:36 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:32 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:30 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:21 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:19 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:14 obsidia wrote:On June 09 2012 09:00 Vertig0 wrote:
The widow mine looks great, Terran has to figure out the best places to place them, and the opponent has to micro once
really? I cant imagine them being useful under any situation, unless your just playing bronze people all day. Its nice blizzard think about the lower ranked people in development terms, but its certainly doesnt add much to the scene in terms of viability or mixing up current Terran meta When a protoss moves out to attack put mines between his robo and his army. Put mines behind your mineral lines and he loses his 200 gas Oracle for free. I could just place a few Turrets for defense ? The mine right now looks a gigantic gimmick . Why the hell does Terran need another gimmick we already have Ravens/Reapers .Why do we need another Unit with no real use in combat situations ? I'm glad you agree the oracle is worthless as a harasser. If the mine actually is as bad as you think it is, you are only getting screwed as badly as protoss is. Beyond that, you can't be cost effectively attacked if your opponent doesn't have detection. That is an unbelievable amount of utility. ANd other than Terran who doesn't build mobile detection units ? Observers,Overseers aren't a big investment. If you see a protoss clearing your minefield, scan and snipe the obs with two vikings. Because of the mines his army has to be behind the obs. If he has no Colossi or Air though guess what i don't have , Vikings ...
HotS is going to be a different game. By that argument, protoss isn't getting anything at all because I never make a stargate against Terran.
All of the new protoss shit comes off the stargate. I think it is fair to speculate that you will be making vikings. You are so caught up in being the victim that you are looking for ways that the mine will be useless rather than looking for ways to use the mine.
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On June 09 2012 09:33 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:29 Seiniyta wrote:On June 09 2012 09:25 Woizit wrote:
22 range tempest... How are they expecting zerg to have any air presence in late game with that? I wonder who the "they" are that lose games with it lol. Corruptors and Mutalisks? It doesn't do splash damage. Corruptors eat it for breakfast and mutalisks can fly circles around it. Ah they've removed the splash, makes sense, though it makes the attack animation and unit design rather odd for how it's functioning now. Looking at the video, siege tanks look screwed now with the new units around. I hope they will buff it up considerably.
What I think the tempest will be exceptionally good at is stretching a terran or zerg defense. If you have a protoss deathball knocking on your front door and a tempest attacking your main from over a cliff, you'll be forced to separate your anti-air from your main army.
I actually think it is a most interesting and less lazy way for toss to split up/deal with an opponent's army than giving them a capital ship with "anti-micro" spells.
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On June 09 2012 09:45 Kaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:39 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:36 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:32 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:30 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:21 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:19 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:14 obsidia wrote:On June 09 2012 09:00 Vertig0 wrote:
The widow mine looks great, Terran has to figure out the best places to place them, and the opponent has to micro once
really? I cant imagine them being useful under any situation, unless your just playing bronze people all day. Its nice blizzard think about the lower ranked people in development terms, but its certainly doesnt add much to the scene in terms of viability or mixing up current Terran meta When a protoss moves out to attack put mines between his robo and his army. Put mines behind your mineral lines and he loses his 200 gas Oracle for free. I could just place a few Turrets for defense ? The mine right now looks a gigantic gimmick . Why the hell does Terran need another gimmick we already have Ravens/Reapers .Why do we need another Unit with no real use in combat situations ? I'm glad you agree the oracle is worthless as a harasser. If the mine actually is as bad as you think it is, you are only getting screwed as badly as protoss is. Beyond that, you can't be cost effectively attacked if your opponent doesn't have detection. That is an unbelievable amount of utility. ANd other than Terran who doesn't build mobile detection units ? Observers,Overseers aren't a big investment. If you see a protoss clearing your minefield, scan and snipe the obs with two vikings. Because of the mines his army has to be behind the obs. If he has no Colossi or Air though guess what i don't have , Vikings ... HotS is going to be a different game. By that argument, protoss isn't getting anything at all because I never make a stargate against Terran. All of the new protoss shit comes off the stargate. I think it is fair to speculate that you will be making vikings. You are so caught up in being the victim that you are looking for ways that the mine will be useless rather than looking for ways to use the mine.
But why do the mines need that timer and the 200 damage ? 30-50ish with splash instantly and i'm happy. That 200 damage with Splash only comes into play if your oponent goes full retard .. 10 ingame seconds is ages .
The mines have to be really really cheap ( like 25 mins or smt ) to be worth it if the only thing they do is kill exactly one random unit with max 200 hp unless the opponent alt-tabs , falls asleep etc.
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On June 09 2012 09:17 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:50 Ev0lution wrote:
Add me to the list of dissappointed/not impressed. What is the point of practising to become good at SC2 when they totally change the game every 3 years? I was hoping SC2 would become a timeless game like chess only for future generations. But with the pieces changing (not even for the better, herp derp caster units WC3 derp) alas we see that it is just another money hungry company trying to squeeze every dollar out of your wallet. ...sc --> brood war?
War3 RoC -> FT?
EDIT: also, I don't understand ur WC3 argument, evolution, and how its relevant. the new caster units in FT were awesome and changed the dynamic of the game for the better.
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R.I.P Siege Tank. HotS is the final blow.
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On June 09 2012 09:50 Elvin wrote:
R.I.P Siege Tank. HotS is the final blow.
I don't think Siege Tanks will be useless in HotS. Keep in mind that Tempests are late game units, and the Viper range will probably be nerfed. Terran may or may not be able to go Marine+Tank, but Tanks will be used.
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Initial review after seeing the vides:
Entomb is silly. Why not replace entomb with recall?
Abduct is a nice idea but it looks ridiculous when used on massive units. Should be non-massive.
Mothership core too similar to PF.
Recall should be able to be offensive as well, not just defensive.
Protoss units should have permanent cloaking not temporary.
Swarm host seems pretty cool.
Zerg needs a 1 supply unit. Hydras or Roaches, make it happen blizz!
Why is Browder afraid of more tech buildings? Why can you build all units with only 3-4 tech buildings?
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On June 09 2012 09:49 Whiztard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:17 Corrosive wrote:On June 09 2012 08:50 Ev0lution wrote:
Add me to the list of dissappointed/not impressed. What is the point of practising to become good at SC2 when they totally change the game every 3 years? I was hoping SC2 would become a timeless game like chess only for future generations. But with the pieces changing (not even for the better, herp derp caster units WC3 derp) alas we see that it is just another money hungry company trying to squeeze every dollar out of your wallet. ...sc --> brood war? War3 RoC -> FT? EDIT: also, I don't understand ur WC3 argument, evolution, and how its relevant. the new caster units in FT were awesome and changed the dynamic of the game for the better.
The TFT units weren't as gimmicky as those units currently look like. Way too much fancy stuff that is just not needed. Keep it freaking simple.
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Holy freaking 22.
I like this so much more than the last update. Three things I'm still concerned about:
Tempest.... really, it's just doing the carrier's job and the carrier is so much more interesting. Just buff old faithful.
Battle hellion is scary as crap. Battle-hellion plus warhound is horrifying. Not quite sure what to do about that yet.
Viper.... get rid of the damn smoker-tongue ability. I don't see any real defense against that, and it's going to take out incredibly valuable units every time it goes off.
Really like the mines (although 1-hit colo? O_o), cloak on the oracle and the new mothership, so long as it's accessible pretty early. No vortex is going to hurt like a bitch lategame though.
Oh man, I just realised they seem to have taken the oracle's phase thing out. That was the most awesome thing about it.
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On June 09 2012 06:21 ELA wrote:
As a terran player, I can't help but think that we're getting shafted for this expansion T.T - The Protoss and Zerg units look really really strong compared to what T has.. I havent played yet, so I could be wrong but thats my general impression
Well duh? WoL is terran's expansion. You basically bought a terran game when you bought WoL, zerg will be HoTs and Toss will be LoV. I don't get why you are so upset about when you have the most units compared to zerg or toss currently
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On June 09 2012 09:49 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:45 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:39 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:36 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:32 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:30 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:21 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 09:19 Kaw wrote:On June 09 2012 09:14 obsidia wrote:On June 09 2012 09:00 Vertig0 wrote:
The widow mine looks great, Terran has to figure out the best places to place them, and the opponent has to micro once
really? I cant imagine them being useful under any situation, unless your just playing bronze people all day. Its nice blizzard think about the lower ranked people in development terms, but its certainly doesnt add much to the scene in terms of viability or mixing up current Terran meta When a protoss moves out to attack put mines between his robo and his army. Put mines behind your mineral lines and he loses his 200 gas Oracle for free. I could just place a few Turrets for defense ? The mine right now looks a gigantic gimmick . Why the hell does Terran need another gimmick we already have Ravens/Reapers .Why do we need another Unit with no real use in combat situations ? I'm glad you agree the oracle is worthless as a harasser. If the mine actually is as bad as you think it is, you are only getting screwed as badly as protoss is. Beyond that, you can't be cost effectively attacked if your opponent doesn't have detection. That is an unbelievable amount of utility. ANd other than Terran who doesn't build mobile detection units ? Observers,Overseers aren't a big investment. If you see a protoss clearing your minefield, scan and snipe the obs with two vikings. Because of the mines his army has to be behind the obs. If he has no Colossi or Air though guess what i don't have , Vikings ... HotS is going to be a different game. By that argument, protoss isn't getting anything at all because I never make a stargate against Terran. All of the new protoss shit comes off the stargate. I think it is fair to speculate that you will be making vikings. You are so caught up in being the victim that you are looking for ways that the mine will be useless rather than looking for ways to use the mine. But why do the mines need that timer and the 200 damage ? 30-50ish with splash instantly and i'm happy. That 200 damage with Splash only comes into play if your oponent goes full retard .. 10 ingame seconds is ages . The mines have to be really really cheap ( like 25 mins or smt ) to be worth it if the only thing they do is kill exactly one unit unless the opponent alt-tabs , falls asleep etc.
I understand your concern, but you have to see, every number will probably change several times until the game is finished. The ten seconds as well as the damage is far from fixed. What is fairly certain and what should be the only base for discussion is that there will be a spider mine, it will be against ground+air, and it will probably be avoidable by micro, however it isn't clear how hard that will be.
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On June 09 2012 09:54 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:49 Whiztard wrote:On June 09 2012 09:17 Corrosive wrote:On June 09 2012 08:50 Ev0lution wrote:
Add me to the list of dissappointed/not impressed. What is the point of practising to become good at SC2 when they totally change the game every 3 years? I was hoping SC2 would become a timeless game like chess only for future generations. But with the pieces changing (not even for the better, herp derp caster units WC3 derp) alas we see that it is just another money hungry company trying to squeeze every dollar out of your wallet. ...sc --> brood war? War3 RoC -> FT? EDIT: also, I don't understand ur WC3 argument, evolution, and how its relevant. the new caster units in FT were awesome and changed the dynamic of the game for the better. The TFT units weren't as gimmicky as those units currently look like. Way too much fancy stuff that is just not needed. Keep it freaking simple.
 got the simple units and we already see all the crying on the forums over the units because they are "boring". What you are recommending will literally make community in 100% complaint mode, unfortunately.
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I've been thinking about this off and on for an hour or so.
Hellhound: No idea what to think of it and I don't think anyone can say how strong or weak it'll be. It isn't a dynamic unit and we won't know how effective any patches will make it. Ugliest unit in SC2.
Battlehellion/Reaper changes: Quite happy with those but I will miss the C4.
Mines: 1 mine for 75min/25gas is too expensive for what it does. Considering how strong it will likely be (tweet said it currently 1 shots a phoenix), it makes it more of a coinflip that can can end up on a single tier 1 unit very easily. I liked the idea of it being a 0 supply upgrade even if it was nered in certain ways, such as 1/2 mines per hellion.
Indirect T effects: Ravens should get a slight buff due to the viper abduct and the fact they're already one of the most vulnerable units in the game, second only to the overlord. I think 150 gas cost might be helpful in that regard. Ravens are even more important in all matchups and need to be adjusted as such. I think 2 starports will be a standard minimum going past midgame. Ghosts could use slight emp radius buff.
Oracle: Seems to be quite good and forces defenses at the mineral lines which may end up being very painful vs T since we dont have 0 supply anti-ground that isn't a planetary.
Tempest: 22 range is game breaking. I can understand the range upgrade being around ~15 but 22 makes it almost impossible for units to fight a smart player with a tempest. Vikings would have to fly over a stalker army to even try while zerg may or may not have an easier time with abduct.
Nexus/Mothership stuff: A good time to be a protoss but not game breaking. Recall seems to be kept in mind as an expensive ability (150 energy currently?) That means the devs are taking precautions with this one.
Viper: I really dislike the abduct ability since it is an anti-micro ability. Fungal already is annoying since you can't move during it. This may end up needing an energy nerf a la raven HSM style.
At first I disliked the idea of a flying defiler but as a terran player I'm both happy and sad about it. Vikings are even more important in tvz to combat vipers since vikings can fight vipers more safely due to their AtA range. They'll stay important to every matchup but it also allows an easier transition into fighting brood lords.
Swarm host: Seems very powerful and it seems to do its job. Indirectly forces detection out of all matchups which can also stand to fight creep spread. No idea how the stats will or will not change.
Protoss players should be very happy to have feedback and a boss ass nexus. Terran looks to be a nightmare to play with only vikings being a minor saving grace since zerg will dominate the ground with broodlord/swarm host/sprinkled infestors. The siege tank seems like it will have limited roles that aren't TvT, sadly.
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They're having too many units with abilities and making the game too much like WC3, when it should be more APM and mechanically intensive.
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I'm getting less and less hyped about HotS.. TT
Swarm Host is the ultimate fire-and-forget unit.
Replacing a tier 3 air unit that can't really function in the game, with a tier 3 air unit that has 22 range.
What really killed me though, I haven't seen anyone mention it here (haven't really checked but..) so I hope I'm wrong, but I understood that the warhound prioritises mech units before other stuff. People have been joking about "auto-micro" for a while now, and.. Especially as a terran, where I (probably biased) feel that we have the hardest lategame micro which is now being made ezpz a-move like the beta. Terrans have been the "a-moverace" since beta when we in reality have had a pretty hard time (lately atleast), but that is not long from gone now.
The Viper looks cool except for the abduct. Just not feeling it.
The Mothership Core is just plain ridiculous, where warp-ins now stops drop recall will stop armies being out of position completely.
I don't know, I was sooooo hyped but now I'm just sad TT
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On June 09 2012 09:54 Belisarius wrote:
Holy freaking 22.
I like this so much more than the last update. Three things I'm still concerned about:
Tempest.... really, it's just doing the carrier's job and the carrier is so much more interesting. Just buff old faithful.
Battle hellion is scary as crap. Battle-hellion plus warhound is horrifying. Not quite sure what to do about that yet.
Viper.... get rid of the damn smoker-tongue ability. I don't see any real defense against that, and it's going to take out incredibly valuable units every time it goes off.
Really like the mines (although 1-hit colo? O_o), cloak on the oracle and the new mothership, so long as it's accessible pretty early. No vortex is going to hurt like a bitch lategame though.
Oh man, I just realised they seem to have taken the oracle's phase thing out. That was the most awesome thing about it.
Looking at the time taken for the mines to deploy, it looks easy to push with mass production of it. It's definitely more powerful than Blizzard's thinking if they believe pros aren't going to be bothered by it.
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EPT
