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If the Warhound has no AA and you still need to build Thors that are slow and clunky for AA or most likely badly upgrades Vikings its going to suck , bigtime. Seriously if Warhound is Anti-Mech its useless against Zerg so your army will still be Helion , Thor , Tanks and will get outmoved like crazy. ( consequently you still die do BL/Infestor after that )
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On June 09 2012 08:23 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:03 Durp wrote:I imagine the Oracle will force a lot more in-base macro orbitals and more planetaries at the actual mining bases On June 09 2012 08:03 Defacer wrote:On June 09 2012 06:59 Synk wrote:
So if mothership is still in, does that mean that 18 months after they came out and said the archon toilet was broken then did a half assed "fix" for it and failed .. it will still be in the game and just as broken as ever? That was literally the biggest thing I was looking forward to was no more ruined games via vortex/3-4 archons. Actually, in the other thread, they mention that the vortex will only affect ground untils, while there will be a separate stasis spell for air units. The vortex was always overpowered against Cruisers, Broodlords and Corrupters. Personally I think if a toss allows their opponent to reach 200/200 with battlecruisers a la MVP, they deserve to lose. Except that protoss has the relatively weakest anti-air. Voidrays are really flimsy, corruptors > phoenix, viking micro > protoss air. Why do you think the tempest is there? It's like a fucking broodlord that hits ground and air with twice the range. That shit is going to be ridiculous!
I am so tempted to save this line into my quotes now. Well said.
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is 22 range even on the same screen? lol.
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On June 09 2012 08:20 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:11 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:09 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:07 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:05 Solo Terran wrote:
So Terran is absolutely fucked. In TvZ our units will get fungled then blinded then hit with free locusts and then raped by charging ultras. Also Ravens will instantly get abducted.
Protoss has so many ridiculous abilities in HoTS... Early mass recall, 22 range units that will destroy vikings, oracles to stop our mining and make armies invisible. The spider mines seem retardedly easy to avoid, even if you don't have detection they won't do jack shit. They will attach to enemies and then they just shift click them out of their army and keep going.
But hey we get a hellion with 40 more HP and a smaller thor with no air attack............
omg every race but mine has overpowered stuff. What? Look at the list of shit Protoss and Zerg is getting and then look at the 2 things Terran is getting and tell me that Terran didn't get shafted in HoTS. They didn't get shafted. It opened up the possibility of mech in the matchup, which also makes many other parts of the terran arsenal relevant in a way they weren't in WoL. Ravens may have their place, battlecruisers will definitely have a place, if turtling to a deathball a ton of the upgrades from the engineering bay will have their place. So no, terran wasn't shafted, because terran already had a ton of stuff they weren't using in WoL because they weren't good in the metagame, but should work nicely in HotS. Mech is not viable versus Protoss in SC2 period. As long as blink stalkers and warp prisms are in the game slow ass tank, battle hellion and warhound armies are going to suck just as bad as mech was in WoL. Ravens have always sucked due to the really small range of HSM and now they will just get abducted/ sniped by Tempests.
yeah, tvp mech doesn't look that much better in HOTS than it does in WOL. Even funky styles that were good only some of the time, like mass air, is getting a serious nerf with these changes because of the emphasis on the stargate. MMM+support is still going to be the name of the game, but now that support might also include battle hellions if the protoss makes a lot of chargelots.
I really dislike how well the early mass recall will synergize with any kind of proxy warp-in tactics now. There's basically no counter attack risk involved with not making your army back home. That's bullshit, imo, but I'm also deeply disappointed that they're not completely removing the warpgate mechanic, so whatever I guess...
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By the way, I remember a while back they said something about tweaking the nydus worm or introduce different types of worms. Would be cool to hear about that ...
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On June 09 2012 08:24 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:20 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:11 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:09 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:07 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:05 Solo Terran wrote:
So Terran is absolutely fucked. In TvZ our units will get fungled then blinded then hit with free locusts and then raped by charging ultras. Also Ravens will instantly get abducted.
Protoss has so many ridiculous abilities in HoTS... Early mass recall, 22 range units that will destroy vikings, oracles to stop our mining and make armies invisible. The spider mines seem retardedly easy to avoid, even if you don't have detection they won't do jack shit. They will attach to enemies and then they just shift click them out of their army and keep going.
But hey we get a hellion with 40 more HP and a smaller thor with no air attack............
omg every race but mine has overpowered stuff. What? Look at the list of shit Protoss and Zerg is getting and then look at the 2 things Terran is getting and tell me that Terran didn't get shafted in HoTS. They didn't get shafted. It opened up the possibility of mech in the matchup, which also makes many other parts of the terran arsenal relevant in a way they weren't in WoL. Ravens may have their place, battlecruisers will definitely have a place, if turtling to a deathball a ton of the upgrades from the engineering bay will have their place. So no, terran wasn't shafted, because terran already had a ton of stuff they weren't using in WoL because they weren't good in the metagame, but should work nicely in HotS. Mech is not viable versus Protoss in SC2 period. As long as blink stalkers and warp prisms are in the game slow ass tank, battle hellion and warhound armies are going to suck just as bad as mech was in WoL. Ravens have always sucked due to the really small range of HSM and now they will just get abducted/ sniped by Tempests. This post is dumb.
Yes because mech was so good in WoL.......
A slow walking mech isn't going to change shit about that.
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Ultralisk frenzy passive appears to be missing...interesting.
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hmm wonder how long it will take for the HOTS beta map to be updated on live, looking forward to playing around with the new changes
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On June 09 2012 08:23 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:21 labbe wrote:
Not liking new Protoss at all. They are still the "death ball" race as far as I can tell, which is sooooo boring to spectate. The oracle harass seems pretty uninteresting to me. Just entomb and fly out, no micro involved at all. The Tempest is boring as well, just a flying ship with super long range, and that is the reason we no longer can make Carriers? Not a fan. When did you ever make carriers? Besides, stuff like mines and the viper spells are indirect nerfs to the protoss deathball. I think we'll see a lot more variety from protoss once they have more options besides 1) making an all-innish push on 2 bases or 2) turtle to deathball.
I hope you're right.
I think they are overdoing it with special abilities as well. Take the Ultra charge for example. They could just give them a speed upgrade (like in bw) instead of adding a usable ability just for the sake of having an ability.
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I hope vipers are light units so a few thors can take them out before they grab every siege tank.
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On June 09 2012 08:24 cheative wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:03 Bashion wrote:On June 09 2012 08:00 cheative wrote:On June 09 2012 07:48 maartendq wrote:
I somehow predict TvP to be heavily in favour of Terran. Not picking on whether it's going to be which side favoured, Terran also gets cripped by entomb the most since its static defence is air-only while protoss and zerg both can cover ground. It's just going to be with 4 marines on every mining base stationed. Neither zerg nor terran gained any harass units (they gained the battle type). It's still beta and a lot can change. Like Khaldor said, you can load those widow mines in a medvac and drop them. Thats a new form of harass. Plus, they buffed reapers. I wasn't question the new form of harass, but highlighting in terms of unit. The new mine is really a new zone line since tanks are no longer effective given what protoss and zerg are getting (subject to change). Harass can come in any form that needs to be, and as creative/cheap as the players can think of. As for reapers, I can't see them doing anything against the current range 5 queen (always one next to hatch) if that gets carried over, they will have better luck with protoss bases that doesn't have the only mothership core. Like I said, it's still beta and a lot can change.
The other thing to note about the reapers: removing the building attack makes them much more likely to reduce the build time, currently one of the problems is that with the building attack is that if they reduced the build time too much people would just 5 rax reaper and run into bases 1 shotting command centers/nexuses before you could kill all of the reapers even if you were reasonably prepared.
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Will there still be a reason to get Protoss units which cost more than 200 resources with the Viper out? Between Neural, Corruptors and Vipers' Abduct, I can't see what  Except that sick 22 range thing lol!
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On June 09 2012 08:27 g.Sagan wrote:
Ultralisk frenzy passive appears to be missing...interesting.
I hope as hell hope so considering how powerful the charge looks like there has to be a downside to it.
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On June 09 2012 08:26 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:20 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:11 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:09 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:07 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:05 Solo Terran wrote:
So Terran is absolutely fucked. In TvZ our units will get fungled then blinded then hit with free locusts and then raped by charging ultras. Also Ravens will instantly get abducted.
Protoss has so many ridiculous abilities in HoTS... Early mass recall, 22 range units that will destroy vikings, oracles to stop our mining and make armies invisible. The spider mines seem retardedly easy to avoid, even if you don't have detection they won't do jack shit. They will attach to enemies and then they just shift click them out of their army and keep going.
But hey we get a hellion with 40 more HP and a smaller thor with no air attack............
omg every race but mine has overpowered stuff. What? Look at the list of shit Protoss and Zerg is getting and then look at the 2 things Terran is getting and tell me that Terran didn't get shafted in HoTS. They didn't get shafted. It opened up the possibility of mech in the matchup, which also makes many other parts of the terran arsenal relevant in a way they weren't in WoL. Ravens may have their place, battlecruisers will definitely have a place, if turtling to a deathball a ton of the upgrades from the engineering bay will have their place. So no, terran wasn't shafted, because terran already had a ton of stuff they weren't using in WoL because they weren't good in the metagame, but should work nicely in HotS. Mech is not viable versus Protoss in SC2 period. As long as blink stalkers and warp prisms are in the game slow ass tank, battle hellion and warhound armies are going to suck just as bad as mech was in WoL. Ravens have always sucked due to the really small range of HSM and now they will just get abducted/ sniped by Tempests. yeah, tvp mech doesn't look that much better in HOTS than it does in WOL. Even funky styles that were good only some of the time, like mass air, is getting a serious nerf with these changes because of the emphasis on the stargate. MMM+support is still going to be the name of the game, but not that support might also include battle hellions if the protoss makes a lot of chargelots. I really dislike how well the early mass recall will synergize with any kind of proxy warp-in tactics now. There's basically no counter attack risk involved with not making your army back home. That's bullshit, imo, but I'm also deeply disappointed that they're not completely removing the warpgate mechanic, so whatever I guess...
What exactly is preventing you from going hellion/warhound/viking? With possible ghost support later in the game?
To me, that sounds way less susceptible to the usual things that own terran in the lategame, especially zealot/HT spam.
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On June 09 2012 08:26 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:20 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:11 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:09 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:07 Heavenlee wrote:On June 09 2012 08:05 Solo Terran wrote:
So Terran is absolutely fucked. In TvZ our units will get fungled then blinded then hit with free locusts and then raped by charging ultras. Also Ravens will instantly get abducted.
Protoss has so many ridiculous abilities in HoTS... Early mass recall, 22 range units that will destroy vikings, oracles to stop our mining and make armies invisible. The spider mines seem retardedly easy to avoid, even if you don't have detection they won't do jack shit. They will attach to enemies and then they just shift click them out of their army and keep going.
But hey we get a hellion with 40 more HP and a smaller thor with no air attack............
omg every race but mine has overpowered stuff. What? Look at the list of shit Protoss and Zerg is getting and then look at the 2 things Terran is getting and tell me that Terran didn't get shafted in HoTS. They didn't get shafted. It opened up the possibility of mech in the matchup, which also makes many other parts of the terran arsenal relevant in a way they weren't in WoL. Ravens may have their place, battlecruisers will definitely have a place, if turtling to a deathball a ton of the upgrades from the engineering bay will have their place. So no, terran wasn't shafted, because terran already had a ton of stuff they weren't using in WoL because they weren't good in the metagame, but should work nicely in HotS. Mech is not viable versus Protoss in SC2 period. As long as blink stalkers and warp prisms are in the game slow ass tank, battle hellion and warhound armies are going to suck just as bad as mech was in WoL. Ravens have always sucked due to the really small range of HSM and now they will just get abducted/ sniped by Tempests. yeah, tvp mech doesn't look that much better in HOTS than it does in WOL. Even funky styles that were good only some of the time, like mass air, is getting a serious nerf with these changes because of the emphasis on the stargate. MMM+support is still going to be the name of the game, but not that support might also include battle hellions if the protoss makes a lot of chargelots. I really dislike how well the early mass recall will synergize with any kind of proxy warp-in tactics now. There's basically no counter attack risk involved with not making your army back home. That's bullshit, imo, but I'm also deeply disappointed that they're not completely removing the warpgate mechanic, so whatever I guess...
How does Mech -not- look better in HOTS than it did in WOL? Warhounds look pretty darn fast and definitely shits all over Mech-based units (Which are stalkers). Zealots die easily to regular Hellions, Vikings/Turrets stop Warp Prisms, and Willow Mines can hit Air units.
I'm seriously not seeing the thought process behind this.
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On June 09 2012 08:25 dAPhREAk wrote:
is 22 range even on the same screen? lol.
Nope. I mean even with the range its still not a very good unit but it was hilarious to watch shots come in from off screen and go "wtf is...oh right tempest"
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On June 09 2012 08:28 Grubby wrote:Will there still be a reason to get Protoss units which cost more than 200 resources with the Viper out? Between Neural, Corruptors and Vipers' Abduct, I can't see what Except that sick 22 range thing lol!
I've kept insisting that, as a Zerg player, Infestors need to be nerfed seriously or removed with the introduction of the viper. It makes no sense to have both, it's absurdly overpowered.
Fungal + Dark Swarm = everything dies.
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On June 09 2012 08:11 Grubby wrote:
TT did you guys notice they made worker counting easier? Says "0/24" on the Hatchery. Did anyone discuss this? :p
EDIT: also, I hate Swarm Host idea.. it's just like ground broodlords, will add even more mindless blockers to the battle to prevent movement like broodlings, fungal and changelings >_<
You mean like ... forcefields ?
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I really like the changes HotS went through in the last couple of months after the first announcments of the new units. Then in seemed like SC2 would turn into a hard-counter game where units have very specific purposes (best example: the Tempest basically existed to counter Mutas). In this version, I don't recognize that trend at all.
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On June 09 2012 07:57 MentalGNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 07:51 Topin wrote:On June 09 2012 07:50 larse wrote:
Warhound is still very awful looking. It looks like something from a si-fi Soviet Union. Really bad. Change it or mech will not be awesome even though they are not powerful now. it looks like a scv with steroids :S but in the worst way possible Agreed. It looks horrible. I simply cannot build something as ugly as the warhound. If it's released like this i'll probably end up sticking the Goliath model on them instead.
Warhound is so ugly. Common Blizzard, you can do better. I really dislike the whole battle hellions+warhound mix. It is very 1Aish. Not to mention it doesn't seem very fun to play with as a result of lacking micro.
At least with Tank Vulture you had to leap your tanks and constantly maneuver your vultures and lay mines.
I am very excited for ZvP, but I feel that with HOTS Blizzard has really killed the Tank+ Show Spoiler +Tempest, Pull abilities, Cloud that blocks ranged attacks, MechaMaruaders. Not to mention all the regular WOL crap people could do to kill tanks.
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EPT
