On May 12 2012 23:31 Fabozi wrote: I want to see the numbers when Flash starts streaming. I he does ofc
Dare to dream.
I honestly hope KeSPA doesn't agree to twitch or own3d's services. Some things are better to keep inhouse.
If you want to add value to your tournaments and make it must-see. Player streams have to go and wages have to go up.
Way too much overexposure atm when it comes to certain players and it's a bad habit.
Kespa players cant stream nor share replays. Its to protect their strategies and keep their practice confidental.
I am well aware of this and that's why I hope they continue to keep things inhouse.
When they transition to SC2 this will have to change.
The way bnet work in SC2 it will be hard to withhold information about games.
Also, the game isn't as figured out as Brood war was yet. In order to make sure that your builds are solid, laddering a lot will be of great importance.
This means that players will be identifiable through things like their hotkey setup.
it doesn't have to change, you just want it to change.
People already created maps that can hide build orders, so it's really easy to hide your practice.
Both of you miss the point.
Sc2 players need to play a lot of ladder.
When doing this, they will be identifiable through the replays.
The culture in SC2 is more open. Tournaments often release all the replays. It is also doable to extract most useful information about builds etc from the vods in tournaments like the GSL that don't release replay packs.
This is not bad. The build orders only tell you so much. It is the execution that matters. Micro and decision making
There's no inherent reason why pro's need to ladder in Sc2. Pros rarely laddered in BW because they were so much better than the players on the ladder, and it was more valuable to practice with teammates, out of house practice partners, and other teams. On Iccup, pro's would skyrocket to A and hold 80% or higher win rates, it just wasn't worth the time. Right now, the difference between pro's and top ladderers in sc2 is large, but not so large that the ladder isn't a valuable part of training. Add in the need for many pro's to stream to supplement their income, and there's a decent chance that pros will hit other pros on the ladder, making it worth their time.
This will soon change. BW teams are sufficiently funded that streaming isn't a financial necessity, With the exception of Team 8, all the BW teams are large enough to have a strong internal practice environment, an environment which will only grow stronger as they bring in practice partners, acquire GSL players, and start practicing custom's with each other. Low to mid level pro's will ladder to maintain awareness of what's going on, but by the end of the year i expect anyone whose being played regularly in PL to not practice on the ladder at all. And once the best pro's aren't practicing on ladder, the value of mid level pro's practicing there goes down.
Well, the influx of BW progamers to the scene might have the opposite effect that the ladder becomes even better.
Personally I think the BW players will have to ladder a lot in order to even have a chance at catching up. It will be some time before they are good enough to even consider practicing internally only.
As of now the KR ladder is very good practice. Top tier players manage to have ~65% win rate when the number of games is high.
Maybe the BW ladder never was as populated as the SC2 ladder is now. This alone might have led to the teams only practicing among themselves.
On May 12 2012 23:31 Fabozi wrote: I want to see the numbers when Flash starts streaming. I he does ofc
Dare to dream.
I honestly hope KeSPA doesn't agree to twitch or own3d's services. Some things are better to keep inhouse.
If you want to add value to your tournaments and make it must-see. Player streams have to go and wages have to go up.
Way too much overexposure atm when it comes to certain players and it's a bad habit.
Kespa players cant stream nor share replays. Its to protect their strategies and keep their practice confidental.
I am well aware of this and that's why I hope they continue to keep things inhouse.
When they transition to SC2 this will have to change.
The way bnet work in SC2 it will be hard to withhold information about games.
Also, the game isn't as figured out as Brood war was yet. In order to make sure that your builds are solid, laddering a lot will be of great importance.
This means that players will be identifiable through things like their hotkey setup.
it doesn't have to change, you just want it to change.
People already created maps that can hide build orders, so it's really easy to hide your practice.
Both of you miss the point.
Sc2 players need to play a lot of ladder.
When doing this, they will be identifiable through the replays.
The culture in SC2 is more open. Tournaments often release all the replays. It is also doable to extract most useful information about builds etc from the vods in tournaments like the GSL that don't release replay packs.
This is not bad. The build orders only tell you so much. It is the execution that matters. Micro and decision making
There's no inherent reason why pro's need to ladder in Sc2. Pros rarely laddered in BW because they were so much better than the players on the ladder, and it was more valuable to practice with teammates, out of house practice partners, and other teams. On Iccup, pro's would skyrocket to A and hold 80% or higher win rates, it just wasn't worth the time. Right now, the difference between pro's and top ladderers in sc2 is large, but not so large that the ladder isn't a valuable part of training. Add in the need for many pro's to stream to supplement their income, and there's a decent chance that pros will hit other pros on the ladder, making it worth their time.
This will soon change. BW teams are sufficiently funded that streaming isn't a financial necessity, With the exception of Team 8, all the BW teams are large enough to have a strong internal practice environment, an environment which will only grow stronger as they bring in practice partners, acquire GSL players, and start practicing custom's with each other. Low to mid level pro's will ladder to maintain awareness of what's going on, but by the end of the year i expect anyone whose being played regularly in PL to not practice on the ladder at all. And once the best pro's aren't practicing on ladder, the value of mid level pro's practicing there goes down.
Maybe the BW ladder never was as populated as the SC2 ladder is now. This alone might have led to the teams only practicing among themselves.
On May 12 2012 23:31 Fabozi wrote: I want to see the numbers when Flash starts streaming. I he does ofc
Dare to dream.
I honestly hope KeSPA doesn't agree to twitch or own3d's services. Some things are better to keep inhouse.
If you want to add value to your tournaments and make it must-see. Player streams have to go and wages have to go up.
Way too much overexposure atm when it comes to certain players and it's a bad habit.
Kespa players cant stream nor share replays. Its to protect their strategies and keep their practice confidental.
I am well aware of this and that's why I hope they continue to keep things inhouse.
When they transition to SC2 this will have to change.
The way bnet work in SC2 it will be hard to withhold information about games.
Also, the game isn't as figured out as Brood war was yet. In order to make sure that your builds are solid, laddering a lot will be of great importance.
This means that players will be identifiable through things like their hotkey setup.
it doesn't have to change, you just want it to change.
People already created maps that can hide build orders, so it's really easy to hide your practice.
Both of you miss the point.
Sc2 players need to play a lot of ladder.
When doing this, they will be identifiable through the replays.
The culture in SC2 is more open. Tournaments often release all the replays. It is also doable to extract most useful information about builds etc from the vods in tournaments like the GSL that don't release replay packs.
This is not bad. The build orders only tell you so much. It is the execution that matters. Micro and decision making
There's no inherent reason why pro's need to ladder in Sc2. Pros rarely laddered in BW because they were so much better than the players on the ladder, and it was more valuable to practice with teammates, out of house practice partners, and other teams. On Iccup, pro's would skyrocket to A and hold 80% or higher win rates, it just wasn't worth the time. Right now, the difference between pro's and top ladderers in sc2 is large, but not so large that the ladder isn't a valuable part of training. Add in the need for many pro's to stream to supplement their income, and there's a decent chance that pros will hit other pros on the ladder, making it worth their time.
This will soon change. BW teams are sufficiently funded that streaming isn't a financial necessity, With the exception of Team 8, all the BW teams are large enough to have a strong internal practice environment, an environment which will only grow stronger as they bring in practice partners, acquire GSL players, and start practicing custom's with each other. Low to mid level pro's will ladder to maintain awareness of what's going on, but by the end of the year i expect anyone whose being played regularly in PL to not practice on the ladder at all. And once the best pro's aren't practicing on ladder, the value of mid level pro's practicing there goes down.
Well, the influx of BW progamers to the scene might have the opposite effect that the ladder becomes even better.
Personally I think the BW players will have to ladder a lot in order to even have a chance at catching up. It will be some time before they are good enough to even consider practicing internally only.
As of now the KR ladder is very good practice. Top tier players manage to have ~65% win rate when the number of games is high.
Maybe the BW ladder never was as populated as the SC2 ladder is now. This alone might have led to the teams only practicing among themselves.
Yeah, they need to ladder now, and for the forseeable future. My point is that this won't last.
BW ladders were well populated, especially Fish. Population doesn't really matter. The problem was that all the best players weren't practicing there, and since they didn't need to stream to make money, there was no reason to. B teamers and practice partners spent time there, and pro's would occasionally ladder fur the lulz, but the vast majority of practice was custom games.
Honestly, it's not BW players that will make the ladder obsolete for top pro's, but BW team structures. Large, well funded, with multiple dedicated coaches and a network of aspiring pro's both in and outside the house helping out. Teams like this are just better suited to improving the skill of their players, and the longer sc2 goes on the more the difference between players on these teams and ladder oriented teams will grow.
His mechanics and macro have taken him to high master league in Korea. From what I have seen, mechanics was not the reason he is dominant in sc1. It was his strategic thinking.
If he can be so good without even having a deep understanding of the game, he will destroy current top pros as his knowledge approaches theirs.
I think that one advantage a high level, non TBLS BW pro could get from streaming is an easy way to acquire a LARGE foreign fanbase. I think that Polt could be an example of a high level pro who isn't very popular even after winning a large tournament; suddenly he starts streaming and at the next tournament the amount of people who were cheering for him was much larger.
Maybe someone like Flash, Jaedong, etc. wouldn't need it but I'd imagine others like BaBy could be interested.
Who knows if KeSPA or their teams will allow them to.
On May 13 2012 02:04 JustinL wrote: His mechanics and macro have taken him to high master league in Korea. From what I have seen, mechanics was not the reason he is dominant in sc1. It was his strategic thinking.
If he can be so good without even having a deep understanding of the game, he will destroy current top pros as his knowledge approaches theirs.
Strategy, game sense, micro, and build order diversity. For all that you hear the haters claiming that flash just turtles, his playstyle is incredibly diverse. He goes for cheese, timings, 14cc's, and many other builds just often enough that he is very hard to predict. He is also quite good at devising special builds for late rounds in tournaments, see his anti carrier builds early in his career, goliath/bio timings vs jaedong, and lots else.
His mechanics are good, but not what makes him special.
On May 13 2012 02:08 Lunareste wrote: I think that one advantage a high level, non TBLS BW pro could get from streaming is an easy way to acquire a LARGE foreign fanbase. I think that Polt could be an example of a high level pro who isn't very popular even after winning a large tournament; suddenly he starts streaming and at the next tournament the amount of people who were cheering for him was much larger.
Maybe someone like Flash, Jaedong, etc. wouldn't need it but I'd imagine others like BaBy could be interested.
Who knows if KeSPA or their teams will allow them to.
They can't stream under KESPA rules. Sorry about that.
On May 13 2012 02:08 Lunareste wrote: I think that one advantage a high level, non TBLS BW pro could get from streaming is an easy way to acquire a LARGE foreign fanbase. I think that Polt could be an example of a high level pro who isn't very popular even after winning a large tournament; suddenly he starts streaming and at the next tournament the amount of people who were cheering for him was much larger.
Maybe someone like Flash, Jaedong, etc. wouldn't need it but I'd imagine others like BaBy could be interested.
Who knows if KeSPA or their teams will allow them to.
They can't stream under KESPA rules. Sorry about that.
I'm 95% positive it has nothing to do with KeSPA, but rather individual team policy.
On May 13 2012 02:08 ppshchik wrote: Wow @ the Kawaiirice game, with this progress I won't be surprised to see Flash beating Incontrol within 1 month.
One month? Guy, Flash is playing versus better P's then iNcontroL already on daily basis. With his connections he could practice against whatever Protoss player he wanted if he so wanted that. If he wants to beat iNcontroL he would beat iNcontroL.
On May 13 2012 02:08 ppshchik wrote: Wow @ the Kawaiirice game, with this progress I won't be surprised to see Flash beating Incontrol within 1 month.
One month? Guy, Flash is playing versus better P's then iNcontroL already on daily basis. With his connections he could practice against whatever Protoss player he wanted if he so wanted that. If he wants to beat iNcontroL he would beat iNcontroL.
Lol don't take him seriously. I think hes trolling LOL.
On May 13 2012 02:08 ppshchik wrote: Wow @ the Kawaiirice game, with this progress I won't be surprised to see Flash beating Incontrol within 1 month.
One month? Guy, Flash is playing versus better P's then iNcontroL already on daily basis. With his connections he could practice against whatever Protoss player he wanted if he so wanted that. If he wants to beat iNcontroL he would beat iNcontroL.
Lol don't take him seriously. I think hes trolling LOL.
It is vaguely depressing how bad Incontrol is now. Like G5, Machine etc.
On May 13 2012 02:08 ppshchik wrote: Wow @ the Kawaiirice game, with this progress I won't be surprised to see Flash beating Incontrol within 1 month.
One month? Guy, Flash is playing versus better P's then iNcontroL already on daily basis. With his connections he could practice against whatever Protoss player he wanted if he so wanted that. If he wants to beat iNcontroL he would beat iNcontroL.
Lol don't take him seriously. I think hes trolling LOL.
Maybe, maybe not. You don't know with people on TL anymore.
EPT
